Which came first in the logical order…

Howie

Well-known member
I do not adhere to determinism . I believe man has free will and God does not control man’s thoughts and actions .
Isa 6:8-10:

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on listening, but do not understand;
And keep on looking, but do not gain knowledge.’

10 Make the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull,
And their eyes blind,
So that they will not see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed.”

🤔 ... hmmmmm
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I don't think this is what the OP wants to talk about, but is what you always want to talk about. He may not be ready to let someone take over his Thread yet...

Is your existence due to first your parents choice to come together and have you, then God reacts to their choice by creating you?

…or…

Is your existence due to first
Gods choice to create you, and Gods determined means to bring you into existence was your parents choosing to come together and have you?




Bonus question: Where does your grandparents choice, to have your parents, fall in the logical order of your existence?

CCP

Isn't this thread about creation or how He makes believers in His image?

How does God create His children without making us in His own image?

I don't think you can answer the OP's questions until you know this.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Isn't this thread about creation or how He makes believers in His image?

No. It’s about which “choice” comes first in the logical order…

How does God create His children without making us in His own image?

Not the point…

I don't think you can answer the OP's questions until you know this.

It’s really not that difficult…



Is your existence due to first your parents choice to come together and have you, then God reacts to their choice by creating you?

…or…

Is your existence due to first Gods choice to create you, and Gods determined means to bring you into existence was your parents choosing to come together and have you?




Bonus question: Where does your grandparents choice, to have your parents, fall in the logical order of your existence?

CCP


 

Howie

Well-known member
Yes lots of philosophy of men happening these days . It’s not my cup of tea ☕️ for sure. I much prefer Gods word and what’s clearly stated in scripture rather then the philosophies of men that Paul opposes in Colossians. We are warned not to get caught up in such arguments.

Col 2:8
Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.
You reject God's word, for instance, 1 Jn1:8 ...
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No. It’s about which “choice” comes first in the logical order…



Not the point…



It’s really not that difficult…



Is your existence due to first your parents choice to come together and have you, then God reacts to their choice by creating you?

…or…

Is your existence due to first Gods choice to create you, and Gods determined means to bring you into existence was your parents choosing to come together and have you?




Bonus question: Where does your grandparents choice, to have your parents, fall in the logical order of your existence?

CCP

There is no logical order in thinking we had anything to do with our salvation. Your questions just leads to a regress.

But I still don't think that God is responsible for evil.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
There is no logical order in thinking we had anything to do with our salvation. Your questions just leads to a regress.

But I still don't think that God is responsible for evil.

I see you are still missing the point of the OP.

It’s about which “choice”, God’s choice or your parents choice, takes precedence in the logical order of your existence.

Again for your convenience…


Is your existence due to first your parents choice to come together and have you, then God reacts to their choice by creating you?

…or…

Is your existence due to first Gods choice to create you, and Gods determined means to bring you into existence was your parents choosing to come together and have you?




Bonus question: Where does your grandparents choice, to have your parents, fall in the logical order of your existence?

CCP
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The later is "logically" prior to the former, but temporally they are simultaneous.

Interesting… So you believe “your parents choice to have you” existed before the “timeline of creation” along side “Gods choice to create you”?

 

Ontos

Active member
Interesting… So you believe “your parents choice to have you” existed before the “timeline of creation” along side “Gods choice to create you”?


No, you're topic is "logical order", but you seem to be conflating that with "temporal order". "Existing before" is a temporal notion, not a logical one, and since we're involving God who I take to be atemporal - from His perspective there is no "before", it's just "present" to Him.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
No, you're topic is "logical order", but you seem to be conflating that with "temporal order". "Existing before" is a temporal notion, not a logical one, and since we're involving God who I take to be atemporal - from His perspective there is no "before", it's just "present" to Him.

The reference point is "in the beginning" (Gen 1:1) refering to the "timeline of creation"...

Did God "exist before" "the beginning of the timeline of creation"?

Did your parents choice "exist before" "the beginning of the timeline of creation"???

...
 

Ontos

Active member
The reference point is "in the beginning" (Gen 1:1) refering to the "timeline of creation"...

Did God "exist before" "the beginning of the timeline of creation"?

Did your parents choice "exist before" "the beginning of the timeline of creation"???

...

There was no "before" creation as before denotes time and there is no time before the beginning of time.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
There was no "before" creation as before denotes time and there is no time before the beginning of time.

Not necessarily... "before" can also refer to "logical order" as the Title of this thread states...

...and as you stated previously...

The later is "logically" prior to the former, but temporally they are simultaneous.

Now did your "parents choice to come together and have you" exist "logically prior" to the "beginning of the timeline of creation"?

...
 

Ontos

Active member
Now did your "parents choice to come together and have you" exist "logically prior" to the "beginning of the timeline of creation"?

...

Depends on what you mean by "exist". The "existence" of the choice was logically prior potentially, but actually temporally after.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Don't really accept the presuppositions and ambiguities of the question.

First of all, only God creates, and the decision to create only starts with him—the question then becomes does God allow a free will to influence or facilitate his creating process.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
First of all, only God creates, and the decision to create only starts with him


How does this ☝️ not contradict that 👇?…

—the question then becomes does God allow a free will to influence or facilitate his creating process.

You have “creating process only starts with him”…
…and…
You have “creating process starts with an “influence” other than him.”

 

Sketo

Well-known member
Is your existence due to first your parents choice to come together and have you, then God reacts to their choice by creating you?

…or…

Is your existence due to first Gods choice to create you, and Gods determined means to bring you into existence was your parents choosing to come together and have you?




Bonus question: Where does your grandparents choice, to have your parents, fall in the logical order of your existence?

CCP


Don't really accept the presuppositions and ambiguities of the question.

What “presuppositions and ambiguities” are you referring to?

 

Tercon

Well-known member
I see you are still missing the point of the OP.

It’s about which “choice”, God’s choice or your parents choice, takes precedence in the logical order of your existence.

Again for your convenience…


Is your existence due to first your parents choice to come together and have you, then God reacts to their choice by creating you?

…or…

Is your existence due to first Gods choice to create you, and Gods determined means to bring you into existence was your parents choosing to come together and have you?




Bonus question: Where does your grandparents choice, to have your parents, fall in the logical order of your existence?

CCP

God's of course. It is a part of making His children in His imagine. When we become believers we become a part of Him and His will, we become as one with Him.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Is your existence due to first your parents choice to come together and have you, then God reacts to their choice by creating you?

…or…

Is your existence due to first Gods choice to create you, and Gods determined means to bring you into existence was your parents choosing to come together and have you?




Bonus question: Where does your grandparents choice, to have your parents, fall in the logical order of your existence?

CCP
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
Is your existence due to first your parents choice to come together and have you, then God reacts to their choice by creating you?

…or…

Is your existence due to first Gods choice to create you, and Gods determined means to bring you into existence was your parents choosing to come together and have you?

I would say the future is open but God more or less interacts with and directs it to get it to go in the general direction He wants, including more or less the birth of certain people for His purposes. But the people are libertarian with some direct intervention on the mind in some cases.

Bonus question: Where does your grandparents choice, to have your parents, fall in the logical order of your existence?

The future is open but has a mix of random, determined and libertarian elements. So the grandparents would choose likewise to lead to our existence.

But all in all the future is open and meticulously foreknown by God but not meticulously predetermined.
 
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