Which comes first? Dying with Christ or being raised up with Christ?

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Which came first? Jesus' death on the cross? Or his resurrection life?

Which comes first? Dying together with Christ or being raised up with him to new life?

Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified together with him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him...
Romans 6

Which comes first?
1. Death together with Christ
2. New life together with Christ
 

civic

Well-known member
Questions

1- what did you have to do with your physical birth ( 1st birth) ?

answer- nothing

2- what did you have to do with your spiritual birth ( 2nd birth) ?

answer- nothing

hope this helps !!!
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Questions

1- what did you have to do with your physical birth ( 1st birth) ?

answer- nothing

2- what did you have to do with your spiritual birth ( 2nd birth) ?

answer- nothing

hope this helps !!!

Are you suggesting you were born again to a new life before you died to the last one?

So which came first: (1) dying with Christ or (2) being raised up to new life with Christ?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Are you suggesting you were born again to a new life before you died to the last one?

So which came first: (1) dying with Christ or (2) being raised up to new life with Christ?
Obviously the first. But the real question is, what does it entail? What does it mean in practical terms, to do the first, in order to follow it up by the second?
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
Are Calvinists not prepared to answer this basic question?
Okay, since no one else has ventured to comment, I will add some more. I think that Paul's metaphorical reference to baptism is obvious; but I think that his metaphorical reference goes deeper than that. At a deeper level I believe it means that we need to die to self, in order to become live to God.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Okay, since no one else has ventured to comment, I will add some more. I think that Paul's metaphorical reference to baptism is obvious; but I think that his metaphorical reference goes deeper than that. At a deeper level I believe it means that we need to die to self, in order to become live to God.

You have to die to this life before you can begin a new life. God doesn't allow double lives but many deceive themselves.
 
Are you suggesting you were born again to a new life before you died to the last one?

So which came first: (1) dying with Christ or (2) being raised up to new life with Christ?
Is it possible to be born again to a new life and spend the rest of that life dying to the old one since Paul said, "I die daily" and that we should be "renewed day by day"?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Which came first? Jesus' death on the cross? Or his resurrection life?

Which comes first? Dying together with Christ or being raised up with him to new life?

Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified together with him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him...
Romans 6

Which comes first?
1. Death together with Christ
2. New life together with Christ
If Christ is the ONLY way, truth and life, then in Christ being the ONLY way, truth and life he not only was the first fruit in dying for us, but he was the first to believe for us as well.
 

Stephen

Active member
Is it possible to be born again to a new life and spend the rest of that life dying to the old one since Paul said, "I die daily" and that we should be "renewed day by day"?

Did Paul actually say "I die daily" in 1 Cor 15:31? There appears to be significant translational variation on the matter.
  • New International Version - I face death every day--yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
  • New Living Translation - For I swear, dear brothers and sisters, that I face death daily. This is as certain as my pride in what Christ Jesus our Lord has done in you.
  • English Standard Version - I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!
  • Berean Study Bible - I face death every day, brothers, as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
  • Berean Literal Bible - I die every day, as surely as the boasting in you, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
  • King James Bible - I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

The NET, which usually has a lot of notes around a contested passage doesn't even have a note for this phrase (Link). Rather it says:

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they baptized for them? 30 Why too are we in danger every hour? 31 Every day I am in danger of death! This is as sure as my boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If from a human point of view I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what did it benefit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34 Sober up as you should, and stop sinning! For some have no knowledge of God—I say this to your shame!


The NET reading of verse 31 seems to better fit the context of Paul being in physical danger in verse 30.


To answer your question:
  • There is legitimate reason to doubt Paul said "I die daily".
  • If Paul did say "I die daily" or did not say "I die daily", it is possible to be "inwardly renewed day by day" (2 Cor 4:16). However, the reason we are "inwardly renewed day by day" is because our bodies are physically wearing away, not because some sort of death occurred (if one bothers to read the scripture reference).
 
So then, resurrection life in Christ comes before dying with Christ, right?

Death with Christ is new life with Christ. New life with Christ is death With Christ. Being born of the Spirit is dying to sin. Dying to sin is being born of the Spirit. Are you trying to separate the two and then decide which comes first?
 
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Did Paul actually say "I die daily" in 1 Cor 15:31? There appears to be significant translational variation on the matter.
  • New International Version - I face death every day--yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
  • New Living Translation - For I swear, dear brothers and sisters, that I face death daily. This is as certain as my pride in what Christ Jesus our Lord has done in you.
  • English Standard Version - I protest, brothers, by my pride in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!
  • Berean Study Bible - I face death every day, brothers, as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
  • Berean Literal Bible - I die every day, as surely as the boasting in you, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
  • King James Bible - I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

The NET, which usually has a lot of notes around a contested passage doesn't even have a note for this phrase (Link). Rather it says:

29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they baptized for them? 30 Why too are we in danger every hour? 31 Every day I am in danger of death! This is as sure as my boasting in you, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If from a human point of view I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, what did it benefit me? If the dead are not raised, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die. 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34 Sober up as you should, and stop sinning! For some have no knowledge of God—I say this to your shame!


The NET reading of verse 31 seems to better fit the context of Paul being in physical danger in verse 30.


To answer your question:
  • There is legitimate reason to doubt Paul said "I die daily".
  • If Paul did say "I die daily" or did not say "I die daily", it is possible to be "inwardly renewed day by day" (2 Cor 4:16). However, the reason we are "inwardly renewed day by day" is because our bodies are physically wearing away, not because some sort of death occurred (if one bothers to read the scripture reference).
I see no reason to doubt. having received the Spirit we die daily mortifying our members and deeds of the flesh, inwardly renewed day by day seeking those things which are above, not in the earth. Looking at the OP, I see no reason to separate the two. If I'm dead with Christ I'm also alive with Christ and visa versa now having two natures; one carnal, one Spiritual.

Why are you trying to find out which event is first? Is there an underlying reason, something else you're drawing at, a point to make, or just an inquiry?
 
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civic

Well-known member
So then, resurrection life in Christ comes before dying with Christ, right?
uh duh let me think on that one lol.

only the dead need a Resurrection.

one must be dead before they can be resurrected.

only the dead are imparted life

hence regeneration precedes everything for the dead, the dead cannot make a spiritual decision, a spiritual thought, a spiritual understanding.

read 1 Corinthians 2 followed by Ephesians 2 and Colossians 3 which declares when we were dead, God made us ALIVE.

next..................................................................................

hope this helps !!!
 

Stephen

Active member
I see no reason to doubt. having received the Spirit we die daily mortifying our members and deeds of the flesh, inwardly renewed day by day seeking those things which are above, not in the earth. Looking at the OP, I see no reason to separate the two. If I'm dead with Christ I'm also alive with Christ and visa versa now having two natures; one carnal, one Spiritual.

Your reason for not doubting is based on several passages strung together that are about different subjects. The bible isn't to be understood by taking soundbites of context and stringing them together into a doctrine.

Why are you trying to find out which event is first? Is there an underlying reason, something else you're drawing at, a point to make, or just an inquiry?

Understanding the sequence of events is a step closer to understanding the truth.


To turn the question back to you, what is the underlying reason for associating 2 Cor 4:16 with a daily death, when the context is our bodies physically breaking down?
 
So then, resurrection life in Christ comes before dying with Christ, right?

Your reason for not doubting is based on several passages strung together that are about different subjects. The bible isn't to be understood by taking soundbites of context and stringing them together into a doctrine.



Understanding the sequence of events is a step closer to understanding the truth.


To turn the question back to you, what is the underlying reason for associating 2 Cor 4:16 with a daily death, when the context is our bodies physically breaking down?
Because I don't see that in the text. The reference is regarding your lifestyle, not aging. Everyone born ages. Aging does not work in you a greater weight of glory, obedience does.

Later in 2nd Corinthians 4 there is a reference to Paul choosing not to look at those things which are seen. What does that have to do with aging? It does have something to do with obedience and your lifestyle.

Just to clarify I made a reference to aging because you made a reference to our bodies physically breaking down.
 
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