Which to observe CCC, DRB, JLV?

PeanutGallery

Active member
Why does CCC's Deut 5 and Traditional Catethetical Formula (TCF) remove the making, adoring, serving of graven things, while ignoring what the Douay-Rheims (DRB) and Jerome's Latin Vulgate (JLV) state?

CCC-2051
The Ten Commandments
...
Deuteronomy 5:6-21
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before me . . .
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain . . .
Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy. . .
...
A Traditional Catechetical Formula

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.
.....................
Douay-Rheims
Deut 5:6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Deut 5:7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.
Deut 5:8 Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
Deut 5:9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,
Deut 5:10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Deut 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.
Deut 5:12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

Jerome's Latin Vulgate
Deut 5:6 ego Dominus Deus tuus qui eduxi te de terra Aegypti de domo servitutis
Deut 5:7 non habebis deos alienos in conspectu meo
Deut 5:8 non facies tibi sculptile nec similitudinem omnium quae in caelo sunt desuper et quae in terra deorsum et quae versantur in aquis sub terra
Deut 5:9 non adorabis ea et non coles ego enim sum Dominus Deus tuus Deus aemulator reddens iniquitatem patrum super filios in tertiam et quartam generationem his qui oderunt me
Deut 5:10 et faciens misericordiam in multa milia diligentibus me et custodientibus praecepta mea
Deut 5:11 non usurpabis nomen Domini Dei tui frustra quia non erit inpunitus qui super re vana nomen eius adsumpserit
Deut 5:12 observa diem sabbati ut sanctifices eum sicut praecepit tibi Dominus Deus tuus
 
What does LEVITICUS 26:1 say in those version of the bible?

Lev 26:1 KJV Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
What does LEVITICUS 26:1 say in those version of the bible?

Lev 26:1 KJV Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
DRB
Lev 26:1 I am the Lord your God. You shall not make to yourselves any idol or graven thing: neither shall you erect pillars, nor set up a remarkable stone in your land, to adore it. For I am the Lord your God.

JLV
Lev 26:1 ego Dominus Deus vester non facietis vobis idolum et sculptile nec titulos erigetis nec insignem lapidem ponetis in terra vestra ut adoretis eum ego enim sum Dominus Deus vester
 

balshan

Well-known member
Why does CCC's Deut 5 and Traditional Catethetical Formula (TCF) remove the making, adoring, serving of graven things, while ignoring what the Douay-Rheims (DRB) and Jerome's Latin Vulgate (JLV) state?

CCC-2051
The Ten Commandments
...
Deuteronomy 5:6-21
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before me . . .
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain . . .
Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy. . .
...
A Traditional Catechetical Formula

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.
.....................
Douay-Rheims
Deut 5:6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Deut 5:7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.
Deut 5:8 Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
Deut 5:9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,
Deut 5:10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Deut 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.
Deut 5:12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

Jerome's Latin Vulgate
Deut 5:6 ego Dominus Deus tuus qui eduxi te de terra Aegypti de domo servitutis
Deut 5:7 non habebis deos alienos in conspectu meo
Deut 5:8 non facies tibi sculptile nec similitudinem omnium quae in caelo sunt desuper et quae in terra deorsum et quae versantur in aquis sub terra
Deut 5:9 non adorabis ea et non coles ego enim sum Dominus Deus tuus Deus aemulator reddens iniquitatem patrum super filios in tertiam et quartam generationem his qui oderunt me
Deut 5:10 et faciens misericordiam in multa milia diligentibus me et custodientibus praecepta mea
Deut 5:11 non usurpabis nomen Domini Dei tui frustra quia non erit inpunitus qui super re vana nomen eius adsumpserit
Deut 5:12 observa diem sabbati ut sanctifices eum sicut praecepit tibi Dominus Deus tuus
But this is the RCC way choose what suits and ignore what doesn't. I find it interesting that we are told by most RCs how Jewish their institution is. It is a pity they do not understand the Jewish thought on graven images.

The second commandment states "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," and Orthodox Jewry has been known to use this as a restriction against all forms of creating and enjoying statues in various forms. This view derives from a fear that statues are a gateway into idolatry, a severe sin in Judaism. Artistic displays of statues, however, are often viewed differently by other Jewish denominations.


They are now more accepting of statues as artwork but not in the synagogues.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Why does CCC's Deut 5 and Traditional Catethetical Formula (TCF) remove the making, adoring, serving of graven things, while ignoring what the Douay-Rheims (DRB) and Jerome's Latin Vulgate (JLV) state?

CCC-2051
The Ten Commandments
...
Deuteronomy 5:6-21
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt out of the house of bondage.
You shall have no other gods before me . . .
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain . . .
Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy. . .
...
A Traditional Catechetical Formula

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.
.....................
Douay-Rheims
Deut 5:6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Deut 5:7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.
Deut 5:8 Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
Deut 5:9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,
Deut 5:10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Deut 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.
Deut 5:12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

Jerome's Latin Vulgate
Deut 5:6 ego Dominus Deus tuus qui eduxi te de terra Aegypti de domo servitutis
Deut 5:7 non habebis deos alienos in conspectu meo
Deut 5:8 non facies tibi sculptile nec similitudinem omnium quae in caelo sunt desuper et quae in terra deorsum et quae versantur in aquis sub terra
Deut 5:9 non adorabis ea et non coles ego enim sum Dominus Deus tuus Deus aemulator reddens iniquitatem patrum super filios in tertiam et quartam generationem his qui oderunt me
Deut 5:10 et faciens misericordiam in multa milia diligentibus me et custodientibus praecepta mea
Deut 5:11 non usurpabis nomen Domini Dei tui frustra quia non erit inpunitus qui super re vana nomen eius adsumpserit
Deut 5:12 observa diem sabbati ut sanctifices eum sicut praecepit tibi Dominus Deus tuus
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. CCC 2051 isn't the Ten Commandments. However, they can be found here in the catechism: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm, and all the commandments are there. The ellipses just imply the same text.
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
But this is the RCC way choose what suits and ignore what doesn't. I find it interesting that we are told by most RCs how Jewish their institution is. It is a pity they do not understand the Jewish thought on graven images.
If one were to stop and think about it for a minute, they could come to the conclusion the rc's are just a "Christian" version of the Jews.

1) The Jews consider their traditions greater than the Scriptures. So do rc's.
2) The Jews have book of traditions (talmud). So do rc's.( ccc)
3) The Jews have their priests. So do rc's.
4) rc's bow down before statues and graven images. So DID the Jews.

The only real difference between the two is that it took the Jews more than 800 years (if not longer) to learn the lesson that GOD did not approve of their idol worship.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
You support the case:
CCC's Traditional Catechetical Formula ignores the making, adoring, serving of graven things ...
Do you mean the column that says "A Traditional Catechetical Formula"? I presume that formula is truncated for memorisation purposes, which is why lots of text is cut out.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
If one were to stop and think about it for a minute, they could come to the conclusion the rc's are just a "Christian" version of the Jews.

1) The Jews consider their traditions greater than the Scriptures. So do rc's.
2) The Jews have book of traditions (talmud). So do rc's.( ccc)
3) The Jews have their priests. So do rc's.
4) rc's bow down before statues and graven images. So DID the Jews.

The only real difference between the two is that it took the Jews more than 800 years (if not longer) to learn the lesson that GOD did not approve of their idol worship.
I don't think Jews consider their traditions great than scripture. In fact, neither do Catholics.

Everyone has traditions. In fact, as a Protestant you have traditions too, e.g. the canon of scripture is a tradition you've inherited.

As for Jews having priests - they were instituted by God (ditto for Catholics).

Bowing down before something doesn't mean worshipping it. You worship something that you think is God. Nobody thinks a statue is God.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Are you saying TCF is truncated in order to ignore the memorisation of making, adoring, serving of graven things?
Umm no, that it's for memorising the Ten Commandments generally (I think, as TCF is "a" traditional formula, so it's one of many). Look at the other lines that are not included from the texts in Exodus and Deuteronomy that have nothing to do with idolatry.
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
Umm no, that it's for memorising the Ten Commandments generally (I think, as TCF is "a" traditional formula, so it's one of many). Look at the other lines that are not included from the texts in Exodus and Deuteronomy that have nothing to do with idolatry.
It is for general memorisation to the exclusion of making, adoring, serving of graven things along with other lines having nothing to do with idolatry?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
It is for general memorisation to the exclusion of making, adoring, serving of graven things along with other lines having nothing to do with idolatry?
It's just the bear bones commandments. Look at what else is not included in this formulation:
"for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments."

also:

"
Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God;
in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son,
or your daughter, your manservant,
or your maidservant or your cattle,
or the sojourner who is within your gates;
for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that is in them,
and rested the seventh day;
therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."

I mean, if you're teaching someone the Ten Commandments so they memorise them, you want them to be as short as possible. It's assumed that just having one God involves not worshiping images as gods.

Do you think God expressly forbids just making graven images because they are wrong in themselves? Or in worshiping graven images?
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
...

I mean, if you're teaching someone the Ten Commandments so they memorise them, you want them to be as short as possible. It's assumed that just having one God involves not worshiping images as gods.

Do you think God expressly forbids just making graven images because they are wrong in themselves? Or in worshiping graven images?
IOW, ignore the making, adoring, and serving of graven things?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
IOW, ignore the making, adoring, and serving of graven things?
No, I'm just asking. Do you think God forbids making graven images because they are wrong in themselves?

I don't see how anyone with an ounce of wisdom would serve or adore a graven image, unless they think the image is a god.
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
No, I'm just asking. Do you think God forbids making graven images because they are wrong in themselves?

I don't see how anyone with an ounce of wisdom would serve or adore a graven image, unless they think the image is a god.
We're are dealing with what the Bible states and CCC's TCF ignores; we are not dealing with what anyone thinks.
 
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