Who agrees with these scriptures and statements and who disagrees and why ?

civic

Active member
The condition of man in his natural state.

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The condition of man in his natural state.

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

hope this helps !!!

The condition of man in his natural state.

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

hope this helps !!!

I agree man is sinful
I would disagree with the Calvinist interpretation of a few

For example none seek God

First I would ask does that mean man cannot respond to God's initiative in first seeking him ?

then examples of men seeking God

2 Chr. 11:16 —KJV
“And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.”

2 Chr. 19:3 —KJV
“Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.”

2 Chr. 20:3 —KJV
“And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.”

2 Chr. 20:4 —KJV
“And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.”

2 Chr. 34:3 —KJV
“For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.”

Acts 17:26–27 —KJV
“And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him,”

To be continued
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The condition of man in his natural state.

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

hope this helps !!!
Peanut is correct
Where does scripture state that man, in his natural state, is unable to hear and repent, when convicted by God?

It doesn't

You quote Rom 3:12

it is a quote from

Psa. 14:1–5 —KJV
Ҧ The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
¶ Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.”

Context there speaks of the generation of the righteous

and diffentiates between the psalmist's people and those that eat them as bread they which do not do good

A saved note reads

This poetic "outburst," a quote from the Psalms, has been beaten and shaped on the anvil of theology to give us a notion of Total Inability. But what is the point Paul is here making? Is he erecting the doctrine of human nature and its relation to soteriology? Not at all. His point is clearly set forth in verse 9: Jews and Gentiles alike are "under sin." Sin is not peculiar to lowly Gentiles, but also afflicts the favored Jews. He proves his point by quoting Psalms 14, which at the outset tells the readers it is dealing with "the fool."

As a poet, the Psalmist frequently bursts into hyperbole, especially when hot with righteous indignation. David is teaching the sinfulness of men, but he does so in an extravagant Hebrew idiom to get the point across powerfully. This is a common poetic device. In verse 4, he says evildoers "devour my people as men eat bread." That, of course, is not literal. . - source unknown

But even granting that man is sinful


does that mean he cannot confess his sinfulness or respond to God's initiative to restore him

The bible does not say that
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The condition of man in his natural state.


Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
1 Cor. 2:14 —KJV
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Context show

1 Cor. 2:1–13 —KJV
Ҧ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”


The passage is about wisdom

That is man's wisdom vs the wisdom which comes from the Spirit of God

There is natural (soulish- psuchikos) knowledge and there is wisdom which comes from the spirit of God

In particular a hidden wisdom

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

which was kept hidden but was now revealed by the Spirit

It is this revelation knowledge which the natural (literally the soulish) man does not receive

but this is not a statement that man cannot understand a gospel message as it was proclaimed by an inspired apostle or prophet.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
The condition of man in his natural state.

Even quoting

Rom. 3:10 —KJV
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”

of itself is insufficient

for All these were declared Righteous, just, upright

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Heb. 11:4 —KJV
“¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.”

1 John 3:12 —KJV
“Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.”

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

2 Pet. 2:7–8 —KJV
Ҧ And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Gen. 6:9 —KJV
“These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”

Gen. 7:1 —KJV
“¶ And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.”

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Job 1:1 —KJV
“¶ There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.”

Job 34:5 —KJV
“For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.”

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Gal. 3:6 —KJV
“¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Acts 10:22 —KJV
“And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.”

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Luke 1:5–6 —KJV
Ҧ There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.”

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6 - See above

Joseph Luke 23:50

Luke 23:50 —KJV
“¶ And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:”

And you can probably add all the heroes of Faith listed in Hebrew 11

Heb. 11:5–7 —KJV
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
 

Redeemed

Active member
The condition of man in his natural state.

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

hope this helps !!!
I agree, why because it's in the Bible! I'm thinking you have the spiritual gift of "helps". Keep up the good work we need it.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I agree, why because it's in the Bible! I'm thinking you have the spiritual gift of "helps". Keep up the good work we need it.
The question is not whether they are in the bible but what do they mean in their context
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The condition of man in his natural state.


Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),

Yes but was does it mean

Does it mean they are Lazarus corpse like dead

or does it mean separated from God prodigal son like manner

Luke 15:17–24 —ESV
“¶ “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!
I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’
And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.
And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.”

Calvinists typically hold to the first

yet hold the "dead" hate God.

How can that be logically held if they are corpse like dead (unconscious)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You disagree we should understand the meaning of scripture in its context ?

<sigh>

We simply disagree that YOU are the one who gets to determine "the meaning of scripture in its context".

You THINK your argument is, "You disagree with Scripture.
But your ACTUAL argument is, "You disagree with ME".

And guess what? I'm fine with disagreeing with YOU.
Doesn't bother me at all.
Have a nice weekend! :)
 

TomFL

Well-known member
<sigh>

We simply disagree that YOU are the one who gets to determine "the meaning of scripture in its context".

You THINK your argument is, "You disagree with Scripture.
But your ACTUAL argument is, "You disagree with ME".

And guess what? I'm fine with disagreeing with YOU.
Doesn't bother me at all.
Have a nice weekend! :)
Well another non engaging post

Why am I not surprised ?

Your "defense" of Calvinist is to simply avoid discussion

You have a nice weekend
 

Redeemed

Active member
Yes I do believe it's important to understand what Scripture tells us. And I also believe that the Holy Spirit will make happen Thank you.


It's in the Bible!
  • “But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.” (1 Corinthians 2:10)
  • “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you.” (John 14:26)
  • “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH …” (JOHN 16:13)

And as a matter of fact I'm going to study that out today and I'm going to have a really good time.

Did you know that in Hebrew, “to know” doesn’t mean to have a particular piece of knowledge in your head. Instead, it means to have an intimate, experiential, life-changing knowledge. That's what I'm talking about!

I hope you have some fun today Tom.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes I do believe it's important to understand what Scripture tells us. And I also believe that the Holy Spirit will make happen Thank you.


It's in the Bible!
  • “But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.” (1 Corinthians 2:10)
  • “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you.” (John 14:26)
  • “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH …” (JOHN 16:13)

And as a matter of fact I'm going to study that out today and I'm going to have a really good time.

Did you know that in Hebrew, “to know” doesn’t mean to have a particular piece of knowledge in your head. Instead, it means to have an intimate, experiential, life-changing knowledge. That's what I'm talking about!

I hope you have some fun today Tom.
A lot of things are in the bible

but Why do you think it is not important to understand what the bible is saying in its context ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes I do believe it's important to understand what Scripture tells us. And I also believe that the Holy Spirit will make happen Thank you.


It's in the Bible!
  • “But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.” (1 Corinthians 2:10)
  • “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you.” (John 14:26)
  • “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH …” (JOHN 16:13)

And as a matter of fact I'm going to study that out today and I'm going to have a really good time.

Did you know that in Hebrew, “to know” doesn’t mean to have a particular piece of knowledge in your head. Instead, it means to have an intimate, experiential, life-changing knowledge. That's what I'm talking about!

I hope you have some fun today Tom.
I always do

If you allow it the bible often interprets itself

and the Holy Spirit will never contradict it

BTW Glad you believe it is imporetant to interpret the bible according to its context - both near and far
 
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