Who came up with the idea that Mormons have to earn eternal life?

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Joseph Smith was and still is a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13 & 18)
That's your opinion. We disagree. Duet 18 would place most of prophets in the Bible in the fake category. A point that I have already demonstrated.

Joseph Smith taught the Biblical God was a man prior to becoming God (King Follett Discourse; see #1; Lorenzo Snow, see Exodus 3:14
False. There is no reason for us to debate things that were never taught nor are today. God was always God. There was never a time when He wasn't. The KFD does not refute that.
Joseph Smith taught, promoted, and practice pagan cult prostitution (37 wives from 1841-1843)
If that is true then so did Abraham Isaac and Jacob as well as Moses. I don't think you know what the word prostitution means.
Joseph Smith plagiarized the King James Bible in translating from the gold plates (see #1, the gold plates were supposed to be older than 1611)
Plagiarism is another word got it appears you don't know it's meaning. Joseph Smith did not claim authorship for those passages and each passage was referenced to the Old testament and the prophet who said them.
Joseph Smith taught the Book of Mormon was the most correct Book of any book on Earth (see #1, see #4)
And it is. Arguing with your opinion is like leading in a fight with your chin. If we were to take just one book that you believe is true and that archeology cannot sustain, I would have to ask you which of the thousands of versions of that book is the most correct?
The Book of Mormon has no archaeological or historical support
Again I purely false statement. There is archaeological evidence that supports the book. There is a whole continent. There is narrow neck of land. There is water running into the ocean. There are numerous plants and animals which did and do exist in the area where these things were supposed to have happened. There was also a civilization that existed on the continent that was totally obliterated before they arrived. There is lots of archaeological evidence that supports the Book of Mormon. You're unwillingness to recognize the evidence that does exist doesn't negate the evidence.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The Book of Mormon geography does not correlate to the known real world
This would go along with my last post. You're unwillingness to recognize the evidence that does exist does not mean it doesn't exist.
Book of Mormon accounts concerning Hill Cumorah are fictional (see #1 and #5
Still leading with your chin. The statement you made doesn't even I foundation. I don't think anyone knows what Hill Cumorah ur talking about. Hint: the hill in New York is not necessarily the hill being spoken of in the Book of Mormon.
No “Book of Mormon” people, cities, or lands have been located in the New World.
If we're going to be talking about lands, I think there is an North America a Central America and a South America all which seem to be in the Book of Mormon. So there are lands. There are a number of cities and locations and people in the Bible that also have no archaeological evidence to support their existence. It doesn't seem unreasonable that 400 ad to the current date would be sufficient amount of time to lose connections amongst the remaining people who survived to change names. It's my hypothesis that the people who sought to destroy the nephites hated them so much that they wanted to destroy everything that reminded them of the former inhabitants. Evidence that I have uncovered suggests that the mesoamerican people continued their obliteration of nephites moving into North America as far as Canada. So it's not unlikely that we would not be able to find city names that were used by the nephites.
No ancient copies of “Book of Mormon” scriptures have been found anywhere (see #6)
What? You mean found by you? Thank goodness that none of you have been able to get a hold of the book of mormon. You've made a mess of the Bible. I can see that it's actually wisdom in God that he keeps it from you all. As with all things archaeological all you have to do is wait and the evidence will come up. To date there has been no evidence to prove that Book of Mormon false.
No genuine inscriptions have been found in either Hebrew or Egyptian in the New World.
That's good. The Book of Mormon was written and neither Egyptian or Hebrew.
No ancient copies of “Book of Mormon” scriptures have been found anywhere (see #6)
I think you're repeating yourself. Say the same thing using different words and then put another number on it and pretend that it's new. And there's a lot of that here. I mean, how many different ways can we say there's no archaeological evidence?
No evidence of pre-Columbian wheat has been found anywhere in the Americas.
On the order of proof this is insignificant. One could debate if it is even evidence. When you can provide evidence or proof of the Resurrection I will consider wheat as being an issue that might stop one salvation.

Nevertheless, when it comes to archeology, as we have seen with barley, all we have to do is wait and somebody will find it.
No use of domestic animals among the ancient American peoples has ever been documented. B. H. Roberts, (noted LDS historian), stated that, “before the time of Columbus and the Spaniards, no tribe had any animal able to carry a man.”
Where do we find in the Book of Mormon evidence that animals were carrying men?

All of this is simply nitpicking and are not evidence or proof that a book is false. Let me know when you've found a cherogrillus, unicorn, or a pygarg. All of these animals are mentioned in the Bible but I'm not aware of any archeological evidence to support their existence.
No use of iron ore or steel has ever been documented among the Native American peoples. No documented evidence of the battle at hill Cumorah has been found, especially no Chariots. (see #8)
Still repeating yourself as if you've added something new to the list. While we haven't found a foundry for making steel, we have found steel tools and weapons from that period and location. Where they got it from is a mystery, but u probably know that steel doesn't make itself.

Cumorah is not an issue even if you want it to be. As for chariots, we don't know what that is even if you think u do. Again, we are not required to prove your imagination. It is entirely feasible that it is a wagon with wheels pulled by horses and it would all fit into that era. All we have to do is wait. They are still digging and based on Lidar readings there is a lot of that still to do.
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
John 17:17-19

Jesus consecrates the apostles.

17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

Jesus ordained the apostles and sends them out into the world on a mission.

18 As you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.


Jesus sanctifies himself so that the apostles also may be sanctified in truth.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
That's your opinion. We disagree. Duet 18 would place most of prophets in the Bible in the fake category. A point that I have already demonstrated.


False. There is no reason for us to debate things that were never taught nor are today. God was always God. There was never a time when He wasn't. The KFD does not refute that.

If that is true then so did Abraham Isaac and Jacob as well as Moses. I don't think you know what the word prostitution means.

Plagiarism is another word got it appears you don't know it's meaning. Joseph Smith did not claim authorship for those passages and each passage was referenced to the Old testament and the prophet who said them.

And it is. Arguing with your opinion is like leading in a fight with your chin. If we were to take just one book that you believe is true and that archeology cannot sustain, I would have to ask you which of the thousands of versions of that book is the most correct?

Again I purely false statement. There is archaeological evidence that supports the book. There is a whole continent. There is narrow neck of land. There is water running into the ocean. There are numerous plants and animals which did and do exist in the area where these things were supposed to have happened. There was also a civilization that existed on the continent that was totally obliterated before they arrived. There is lots of archaeological evidence that supports the Book of Mormon. You're unwillingness to recognize the evidence that does exist doesn't negate the evidence.
Smith copied the King James Version (1611) of the Bible, including it’s own specific peculiarities which would not have appeared in original text, and attributed it to an imaginary people (Nephites)
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
1 Peter 2:5,9
5 like living stones let yourselves be built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people,[a] in order that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Revelation 1:6
6
and made us a kingdom, priests serving[a] his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10
10 you have made them a kingdom and priests serving our God,and they will reign on earth.”


Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.


made us a kingdom, priests serving[6 and made us a kingdom, priests serving
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The Mormon Temple and its ceremonies have absolutely no correlation with the O.T. Jewish Temple (see Masonry)
Again, ur opinion doesn't make fact. There are a lot of similarities and in case you've forgotten, there are no more blood sacrifices since the Christ. All the parts of the temple are there and all the ceremonies are still there virtually unchanged. Washing and anointing, new name, endowment, etc. They are all there.
Mormonism teaches Satan is God’s Son, a brother to Jesus
That's because he is. It doesn't matter that you disagree. Your word doesn't make it true. God the Father is the Father of all our spirits including Jesus who is the firstborn. That would mean that any that came after him would be his brother or sister. Jesus references this very fact in the Bible when talking to Mary... His God and her God, his father and her father. Clearly, he wasn't referring to the flesh.
Mormonism teaches Jesus was born from natural human sexual relations between God the Father and Mary (Brigham Young and Bruce McConkie)
No, we don't. We teach that Jesus was born of a man and a woman the same as we have all been conceived. How that was done, whether sexual or by some other means has never been discussed, that I know of.

This is literally basic biology. Sperm from a male fertilizes an egg from a female and in humans, that will only result in pregnancy between humans. It doesn't have to be through sexual relations. However, if God is all powerful, I'm sure He is capable of having sexual relations. It seems simple enough.
The Mormon Prophet and Mormon Apostles are false prophets and apostles (Exposed by Mark Hoffman and the Salamander Letter)
😂 Your opinion or theirs doesn't make it true. Mark didn't expose anything other than himself being a fraud and a criminal. Seriously, u need better character witnesses than this.
Mormonism changed the Garden of Eden from the location in relation to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Genesis 2:14, to Missouri in the United States
No one knows where the garden of Eden was, certainly not you all. Missouri is not where the garden was, it is where Adam lived after he was cast out of the garden. The natural conclusion is that the garden would be somewhere near there. That's assuming that the garden was even on the earth. But, judging from the archeological evidence, something you like to use, it never was on the earth. The earth is over 2 billion years old and has gone through several extinction level events. There was hardly ever a time or a place where such a garden could be on this planet. The closest Missouri could come to being the location of the garden is that is where the "gate" would have been.

Of course, all this is speculation just like ur idea of where the garden was changed from is speculation. This all feeds into a common denominator. We can't both be right. We can both be wrong. But, if one of us is right, the other must be wrong. The archeology just doesn't support your speculation.

Baptism and keeping all of God’s laws and commandments perfectly is essential for exaltation (vows are taken at Baptism, Sacrament, Temple Endowment Ceremony, confirmed by Ezra Benson and Spencer Kimball)
Blatantly false. The path to perfection is through Jesus Christ. That will occur over time, an eternity if need be, through repentance by following Christ and living as He lived. It is through repentance that we are reconciled to God through Christ. Being on that path is essential to exaltation. There is no other way.
Eternal Security is being sealed in the Mormon Temple
And even you can be sealed to your spouse (of the opposite sex, of course). Isn't it great that God has a plan for all of his children?
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
James 1:18
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

1. “…give us birth…”
2. “…through the word of truth…”

1 Timothy 1:16
16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

1. “…those who would believe in him…”
2. “…receive eternal life.”
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Of all the branches of Christianity, Mormonism is the most imaginative, and, if nothing else, its intellectual audacity should make it the most exciting conversational partner for traditional Christians for the twenty-first century. Studying Mormonism is like looking into a mirror that, upon closer inspection, turns into a maze. Keep exploring and the maze leads to multiple exits, each of which opens onto hauntingly familiar rooms that comprise unexpected additions to the mansion of faith. [ Stephen H. Webb, "Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints (reprint from his book Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter(Oxford University Press, 2012)," Brigham Young University Studies 50 no. 3 (2011).]
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Luke 24:39,41-45

39 Look at My hands and My feet—it is I Myself! Touch Me and see! For a spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
41 But while they were still in disbelief due to joy and wonder, He said to them, “Do you have anything to eat here?”

42 They gave Him a piece of broiled fish,
43 and He took it and ate it in their presence.
44 Then He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you—everything written concerning Me in the Torah of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Smith copied the King James Version (1611) of the Bible, including it’s own specific peculiarities which would not have appeared in original text, and attributed it to an imaginary people (Nephites)

Instead of going from topic to topic in an effort to avoid questions you can’t answer explain the following two verses in light of your belief that regeneration precedes faith.

James 1:18
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

1. “…give us birth…”
2. “…through the word of truth…”

1 Timothy 1:16
16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

1. “…those who would believe in him…”
2. “…receive eternal life.”
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member

Instead of going from topic to topic in an effort to avoid questions you can’t answer explain the following two verses in light of your belief that regeneration precedes faith.

James 1:18
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

1. “…give us birth…”
2. “…through the word of truth…”

1 Timothy 1:16
16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

1. “…those who would believe in him…”
2. “…receive eternal life.”

It is God's choice to regenerate sinners who otherwise would not believe.

It is God's choice to save the elect. Only God can bring a sinner to repentance. Without the Spirit of Christ we are none of His and can't understand spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
 

RCM

Active member
“We sometimes overly associate the power of the priesthood with men in the Church. The priesthood is the power and authority of God given for the salvation and blessing of all—men,women, and children.
A man may open the drapes so the warm sunlight comes into the room,but the man does not own the sun or the light or the warmth it brings. The blessings of the priesthood are infinitely greater than the one who is asked to administer the gift.”
“All of the ordinances invite us to increase our faith in Jesus Christ and to make and keep covenants with God. As we keep these sacred covenants,we receive priesthood power and blessings.” [Power in the Priesthood By Elder Neil L. Andersen Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles]

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

μονογενής (monogenēs)
Strong: G3439
GK: G3666
only-begotten,only-born, Luke 7:12; 8:42;9:38;Hebrew 11:17;only-begotten in respect of peculiar generation,unique,John 1:14,18;3:16,18;1 John 4:9

The reference to Jesus as the “first-born”—and hence the justification for our calling him our “Elder Brother”—cannot refer to any relationship that he established in his earth life,since as to the flesh he is not our “Elder Brother,” any more than he is the “first-born” in the flesh. There were many born as to the flesh,before he was, and older brothers to us in the flesh than he. The relationship of “Elder Brother” cannot have reference to that estate where all were self-existent,uncreated and unbegotten,eternal intelligences,for that estate admits of no such relation as “elder” or “younger.” For as to the succession in time—the fact on which “younger” or “elder” depends—the intelligences are equal,that is, equal as to their eternity. Therefore, since the relationship of “Elder Brother” was not established by any possible fact in that estate where all were self-existing intelligences,it must have been established in the spirit life where Jesus,with reference to the hosts of intelligences designed to our earth,was the “first-born spirit,” and by that fact became our “Elder Brother,” the “first-born of every creature,” “the beginning of the creations of God,” as pertaining to our order of existence. [B. H. Roberts,The Truth, the Way,the Life:An Elementary Treatise on Theology,ed. John W. Welch,2d ed. (Provo,Utah: BYU Studies,1996),250.]

If Jesus is the first spirit child conceived and begotten by Heavenly Father; and if Heavenly Father and Mother subsequently conceived other spirit children including Satan; then Jesus and Satan logically are spirit brothers. While LDS spokespersons sometimes obfuscate this fundamental Mormon teaching, apostles of the Mormon Church and current official LDS publications clearly affirm it. As explained by the Mormon publication Ensign, “On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some— especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers.”



Like I said,


Just like mormon interpretation and teaching that the mormon god had satan for a son

And that satan is your elder brother



That is cult teaching, nothing Biblical about it

RCM
 

RCM

Active member
Matthew 15:10-11,16-17,19-20
10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person,but what comes out of the mouth;this defiles a person.” 16 And he said,“Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

Let me post it again for you because you are in denial of Biblical Truth!


2 Chronicles 23:19 He stationed the gatekeepers of the house of the LORD, so that no one would enter who was in any way unclean.


And satan is the source of lies, rebellion against God, and lawlessness


And he is in your temple

Your temple is not Biblical in any way! It is unclean! It is a cult!



RCM
 

RCM

Active member
Proverbs 26:1-12
Like snow in summer or rain in harvest,
so honor is not fitting for a fool.
2 Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying,
an undeserved curse goes nowhere.
3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey,
and a rod for the back of fools.
4 Do not answer fools according to their folly,
lest you be a fool yourself.
5 Answer fools according to their folly,
lest they be wise in their own eyes.
6 It is like cutting off one’s foot and drinking down violence,
to send a message by a fool.
The legs of a lame person hang limp;
so does a proverb in the mouth of a fool.
8 It is like binding a stone in a sling
to give honor to a fool.
9 Like a thornbush brandished by the hand of a drunkard
is a proverb in the mouth of a fool.
10 Like an archer who wounds everybody
is one who hires a passing fool or drunkard.
11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit
is a fool who reverts to his folly.
12 Do you see people wise in their own eyes?
There is more hope for fools than for them.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.



RCM
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
It is God's choice to regenerate sinners who otherwise would not believe.

It is God's choice to save the elect. Only God can bring a sinner to repentance. Without the Spirit of Christ we are none of His and can't understand spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know
them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if
any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​
James 1:18
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

1. “…give us birth…”
2. “…through the word of truth…”

1 Timothy 1:16
16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

1. “…those who would believe in him…”
2. “…receive eternal life.”
 

Mesenja

Well-known member
Romans 2:3-8
3 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will repay according to each one’s deeds: 7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life, 8 while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but injustice, there will be wrath and fury.

2 Peter 3:9,17-18
9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, beware that you are not carried away with the error of the lawless and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.


 
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