Who can "live up to" Arminianism?

christ_undivided

Well-known member
I believe that Arminianism is impossible to "live up to".

So my questions are to the resident Arminians.

1. How often have you been wrong in your life? A "ballpark" number is acceptable

2. What is the longest you have gone without repenting?
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
1. More times than I can count.
2. Over 20 years and some very serious sins. :(

I still believe I was saved, because I did not reject my libertarian free will in Christ all that time. Also there was some mercy because I was blinded to the sins I had let loose in my life. When God revealed the sin to me about 5 years ago, I repented very fervently for many months.

If you would like just a short argument against Eternal Security (I use the term OSAS loosely here), I can paste it in from another forum.

I don't believe we need a form of eternal security to feel secure. We should not be trusting a doctrine anyway, we should be directly trusting God himself.​
OSAS assumes any promise it finds in the Bible is unconditional, but this assumption is unwarranted.​
Consider this verse: "I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!" 1 Sam. 2:30.
The original promise did not directly address the conditions involved, they were assumed from other Bible passages.​
OSAS assumes ALL warnings that sound salvific HAVE to necessarily be addressing unsaved people who are "almost" saved, but these warnings both describe elements of salvation in those they are addressed to, and they also make absolutely no sense to be addressed to people that have no commitment or belief in God anyway, for those people have no promise of salvation, nor can they fall from anything, nor have the partaken of Christ, nor have they escaped corruption.​
Rejecting OSAS does not mean you have to confess every single sin every second of every day or you instantly lose your salvation, nor does it even mean you have to leave in fear and anxiety and worry about your salvation. These things are gross straw men that don't logically follow.​
Rejecting OSAS means you take God's warnings as if they actually applied, but in so doing, it drives you even deeper to grace, dependence, trust, reliance, and faith in the merits and strength of Christ. God does not ask us to do what we cannot do, but always provides the grace for it.​
Rejecting OSAS does not mean salvation by works. It is a logical error to insist that an action that produces a result necessarily means an attempt to merit it. Christ asks us to meet non-meritorious requirements that are easily achievable and only require trust in Christ's merit and not our own.​
There is no single verse anywhere that indicates you can reject and leave your faith in Christ, and still expect salvation. And so many forms of OSAS become completely legalistic, the very thing they "claim" to want to save you from, by preaching you can't be saved without believing OSAS, or that if you later fall away it means you were never saved at all. If you have to bear fruit to prove you are saved, this is logically no different than works salvation.​
Don't listen to the devil offering a false security. Ask God directly and persistently, and he will show you that you don't have to believe the lie of Eternal Security to be saved, nor do you have to live in fear without it.​
Could eternal security be more clearly stated?
100% yes, it could be more clearly stated.​
For this promise to mean eternal security it must with absolute clarity and precision make it clear that there are no conditions and variables that could apply to it.​
This is a presupposition brought to the text from man made ideologies, that clearly does not fit the verse I quoted nor all the times the Bible gives clear conditional warnings that express an actual potential and hypothetical.​
To make someone "feel secure" by giving them hundreds of warnings that don't apply to them but sound like they do, is the most unreliable and dishonest way God could possibly bring security to us.​
Also when you say "by faith" you are implying we have to do something volitionally to apply the Work of the Cross.
Under the logic that if you do anything it is meritorious works added to the Cross, you have to completely eliminate all free will and say a person is born saved.​
But the Bible says we are born children of wrath, therefore the Atonement and Merits of Jesus logically have to be conditionally applied, since there is a point in time when they are not.​
If you claim fear and love "can't mix," you have thrown out the beginning of wisdom and knowledge itself, which Scripture clearly says is the fear of the Lord. Even Christ clearly said "fear him."​
In conclusion OSAS is actually that doctrine that brings man-made philosophical rationalizations to dismiss the clear warnings of Scripture and mischaracterizes grace as having to only be monergism.​
Both of these do not match the Bible, nor are they confirmed by the Holy Spirit, nor do they match the experience of devout believers we later find fallen away.​
Should we believe a lie just to make ourselves feel secure? I think the clear answer is, no.​
 

christ_undivided

Well-known member
1. More times than I can count.
2. Over 20 years and some very serious sins. :(

I still believe I was saved, because I did not reject my libertarian free will in Christ all that time. Also there was some mercy because I was blinded to the sins I had let loose in my life. When God revealed the sin to me about 5 years ago, I repented very fervently for many months.

We are not saying you can "out sin" the Cross, but rather you can reject it by a free will decision. If you would like just a short argument against Eternal Security (I use the term OSAS loosely here), I can paste it in from another forum.

I don't believe we need a form of eternal security to feel secure. We should not be trusting a doctrine anyway, we should be directly trusting God himself.​
OSAS assumes any promise it finds in the Bible is unconditional, but this assumption is unwarranted.​
Consider this verse: "I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!" 1 Sam. 2:30.
The original promise did not directly address the conditions involved, they were assumed from other Bible passages.​
OSAS assumes ALL warnings that sound salvific HAVE to necessarily be addressing unsaved people who are "almost" saved, but these warnings both describe elements of salvation in those they are addressed to, and they also make absolutely no sense to be addressed to people that have no commitment or belief in God anyway, for those people have no promise of salvation, nor can they fall from anything, nor have the partaken of Christ, nor have they escaped corruption.​
Rejecting OSAS does not mean you have to confess every single sin every second of every day or you instantly lose your salvation, nor does it even mean you have to leave in fear and anxiety and worry about your salvation. These things are gross straw men that don't logically follow.​
Rejecting OSAS means you take God's warnings as if they actually applied, but in so doing, it drives you even deeper to grace, dependence, trust, reliance, and faith in the merits and strength of Christ. God does not ask us to do what we cannot do, but always provides the grace for it.​
Rejecting OSAS does not mean salvation by works. It is a logical error to insist that an action that produces a result necessarily means an attempt to merit it. Christ asks us to meet non-meritorious requirements that are easily achievable and only require trust in Christ's merit and not our own.​
There is no single verse anywhere that indicates you can reject and leave your faith in Christ, and still expect salvation. And so many forms of OSAS become completely legalistic, the very thing they "claim" to want to save you from, by preaching you can't be saved without believing OSAS, or that if you later fall away it means you were never saved at all. If you have to bear fruit to prove you are saved, this is logically no different than works salvation.​
Don't listen to the devil offering a false security. Ask God directly and persistently, and he will show you that you don't have to believe the lie of Eternal Security to be saved, nor do you have to live in fear without it.​
Could eternal security be more clearly stated?
100% yes, it could be more clearly stated.​
For this promise to mean eternal security it must with absolute clarity and precision make it clear that there are no conditions and variables that could apply to it.​
This is a presupposition brought to the text from man made ideologies, that clearly does not fit the verse I quoted nor all the times the Bible gives clear conditional warnings that express an actual potential and hypothetical.​
To make someone "feel secure" by giving them hundreds of warnings that don't apply to them but sound like they do, is the most unreliable and dishonest way God could possibly bring security to us.​
Also when you say "by faith" you are implying we have to do something volitionally to apply the Work of the Cross.
Under the logic that if you do anything it is meritorious works added to the Cross, you have to completely eliminate all free will and say a person is born saved.​
But the Bible says we are born children of wrath, therefore the Atonement and Merits of Jesus logically have to be conditionally applied, since there is a point in time when they are not.​
If you claim fear and love "can't mix," you have thrown out the beginning of wisdom and knowledge itself, which Scripture clearly says is the fear of the Lord. Even Christ clearly said "fear him."​
In conclusion OSAS is actually that doctrine that brings man-made philosophical rationalizations to dismiss the clear warnings of Scripture and mischaracterizes grace as having to only be monergism.​
Both of these do not match the Bible, nor are they confirmed by the Holy Spirit, nor do they match the experience of devout believers we later find fallen away.​
Should we believe a lie just to make ourselves feel secure? I think the clear answer is, no.​

The question could be asked....

Which presents a more loving God? If Arminanism presents a religion that is impossible to "live up to", then God loves no one, or Calvinism teachings that God irrevocably loves the elect?

Who knows the elect? There may be more than anyone has ever imagined? Just saying.....

Not claiming anything. Just dissecting the arguments.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
I believe that Arminianism is impossible to "live up to".

So my questions are to the resident Arminians.

1. How often have you been wrong in your life? A "ballpark" number is acceptable

2. What is the longest you have gone without repenting?
I've been wrong multiple times and I don't keep a ledger account of what's the longest I've gone without repenting.

I'm curious to know if there is an underlying Calvinist doctrine that you're attempting to promote with this thread? If so, it's best many times to just come out and reveal it right off the bat.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
I believe that Arminianism is impossible to "live up to".

So my questions are to the resident Arminians.

1. How often have you been wrong in your life? A "ballpark" number is acceptable

2. What is the longest you have gone without repenting?
I'm not seeing the relevance of the question! What do the questions posed have to do with "living up to" Arminianism?


Doug
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Repentance is based upon knowledge. Many Arminians sin and don't even know it. That is witnessed here in bad attitudes and false claims that are continually repeated. I'm not judging any man reprobate.

I can't say that about you. You seem eager to judge men damnable.

If we sin, the Holy Spirit tells us, and that pretty quickly, for soft hearts are very sensitive to the Spirit's conviction! To resist such prodding is to create a callous, which grows harder with continuous refusal to repent.

Your claiming that I have sinned is irrelevant and empty without the witness of the Spirit to that guilt. Moreover, this lumping all Arminians together is bad form. If you think I have done something wrong, then lay it at my feet, don't accuse every Arminian of such!

I have never knowingly "damned" anyone for being a Calvinist! I have, and do, express serious concerns for the spiritual wellness of those whose behavior seems consistently out of harmony with Christ's character. It is not my place to pronounce anything on any man; God alone has that right!


Doug
 

christ_undivided

Well-known member
I've been wrong multiple times and I don't keep a ledger account of what's the longest I've gone without repenting.

I'm curious to know if there is an underlying Calvinist doctrine that you're attempting to promote with this thread? If so, it's best many times to just come out and reveal it right off the bat.
I was clear in the OP.

So have you lived up to Armianism's demands?
 

christ_undivided

Well-known member
I'm not seeing the relevance of the question! What do the questions posed have to do with "living up to" Arminianism?


Doug
It is a test to see if you are living up to the demands of Arminianism.

1. If you have sinned often in your life after receiving Grace, then by your own standards, you are not living up to the demands you preach.

2. If you've went a significant amount of time without repenting, then you are failing to live up what you preach.

Again, it is impossible to live up to Arminianism. You require of others what you do not do yourself.
 

christ_undivided

Well-known member
If we sin, the Holy Spirit tells us, and that pretty quickly, for soft hearts are very sensitive to the Spirit's conviction! To resist such prodding is to create a callous, which grows harder with continuous refusal to repent.

Your claiming that I have sinned is irrelevant and empty without the witness of the Spirit to that guilt. Moreover, this lumping all Arminians together is bad form. If you think I have done something wrong, then lay it at my feet, don't accuse every Arminian of such!

I have never knowingly "damned" anyone for being a Calvinist! I have, and do, express serious concerns for the spiritual wellness of those whose behavior seems consistently out of harmony with Christ's character. It is not my place to pronounce anything on any man; God alone has that right!


Doug
I don't believe you. Arminians sin often. I don't have to know your sin personally. I didn't ask you what you did. I asked how many times have you sinned. You are unwilling to answer because it would indicate that you do not practice what you preach.

I do not believe you recognize your own sin every time you sin. I don't believe you. I personally have sinned and didn't realize it for many years. Just ask my wife or my children.

They will tell that they love me. They will tell you I am good man. They will tell you that I've done more for them than most have for their own. Yet, I am such a failure in so many ways toward them. So go ahead, pat yourself in the back and tell us little you've sinned and how ready you are to repent when you do. I don't believe you.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
I was clear in the OP.

So have you lived up to Armianism's demands?
Arminian demands:

Mar 1:14 And after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

You will notice a common sequence: Repenting and believing in Christ before receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't know if the reverse happens. Eventually, I would assume one does repent and because the Holy Spirit breathes where He desires, I would say that Calvinists are saved.
 

christ_undivided

Well-known member
Arminian demands:

Mar 1:14 And after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

You will notice a common sequence: Repenting and believing in Christ before receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't know if the reverse happens. Eventually, I would assume one does repent and because the Holy Spirit breathes where He desires, I would say that Calvinists are saved.

You're deflecting. The didn't question the Arminian position on repentance and believing the Gospel. Quote me. You can't.

I questioned how many times you've repented in your lives and how long you've went between repenting of sin.

If you answer these questions, everyone can tell you believe in "cheap Grace". You sin often and fail to repent every time you sin. Just like everyone else.

You can't live up to what you demand of others.
 
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