Who can "live up to" Arminianism?

christ_undivided said:
You're deflecting. The didn't question the Arminian position on repentance and believing the Gospel. Quote me. You can't.

I questioned how many times you've repented in your lives and how long you've went between repenting of sin.

If you answer these questions, everyone can tell you believe in "cheap Grace". You sin often and fail to repent every time you sin. Just like everyone else.

You can't live up to what you demand of others.
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If you don't like me talking about the essential Arminian demands then tell me which demands you want me to talk about. Tell me specifically which Bible verses you're referring to so that we can have a common source of reference. I presented what the Bible essentially demands and far be it from me to tell you if you live up to it or not, especially since the Holy Spirit breathes where He desires.
 
christ_undivided said:
It is a test to see if you are living up to the demands of Arminianism.

1. If you have sinned often in your life after receiving Grace, then by your own standards, you are not living up to the demands you preach.

2. If you've went a significant amount of time without repenting, then you are failing to live up what you preach.

Again, it is impossible to live up to Arminianism. You require of others what you do not do yourself.
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Exactly how do you think this is against living up to the demands of Arminianism? Does Arminianism teach that we are incapable of sinning? Do we say that X amount of time without repenting means we're lost? What exactly are we not living up to?

What is different from what you would believe about these situations?


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
Exactly how do you think this is against living up to the demands of Arminianism? Does Arminianism teach that we are incapable of sinning? Do we say that X amount of time without repenting means we're lost? What exactly are we not living up to?

What is different from what you would believe about these situations?


Doug
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This is such a nebulous thread. I asked Christ_undivided for at least some bible verses, to serve as common source material, for everyone to get some grasp of what he's trying to accomplish with this thread of his.
 
christ_undivided said:
I don't believe you.
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And what then are you saying about me?


christ_undivided said:
Arminians sin often.
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I have no doubt about that!


christ_undivided said:
I don't have to know your sin personally. I didn't ask you what you did. I asked how many times have you sinned. You are unwilling to answer because it would indicate that you do not practice what you preach.
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And what do I preach that I do not practice?

christ_undivided said:
I do not believe you recognize your own sin every time you sin.
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I didn't say anything about every time I sin, but generally speaking I usually know when I do something wrong, and that while I'm doing it.



christ_undivided said:
I don't believe you.
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Ibid above...

christ_undivided said:
I personally have sinned and didn't realize it for many years. Just ask my wife or my children.
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Did you not know that that action was a sin, or did you not know that you were committing that act of sin? We become accountable when we are made cognitive of our sin. I am assuming that you confessed and repented of this act at that point.


christ_undivided said:
They will tell that they love me. They will tell you I am good man. They will tell you that I've done more for them than most have for their own.
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I would expect nothing less.
christ_undivided said:
Yet, I am such a failure in so many ways toward them.
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I think most husbands would feel that way, I certainly do. But does that mean I've sinned?

christ_undivided said:
So go ahead, pat yourself in the back and tell us little you've sinned and how ready you are to repent when you do. I don't believe you.
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Again, I haven't said anything about the quantity of my sin. I certainly have not suggested that I haven't sinned, nor that I cannot sin. Frankly, this seems to be an exercise in deflecting your own guilt. You have yet to explain what Arminian precepts we are not living up to; you are making broad, assumptive claims about people's behavior that you cannot possibly know, implying a failure that is antithetical to unspecified truths.

If I am wrong, I apologize, but I can come to no other conclusion given your responses thus far. Until I know specific precepts that I allegedly am not living up to, your query is a meaningless phishing exposition.


Doug
 
Dizerner said:
1. More times than I can count.
2. Over 20 years and some very serious sins. :(

I still believe I was saved, because I did not reject my libertarian free will in Christ all that time. Also there was some mercy because I was blinded to the sins I had let loose in my life. When God revealed the sin to me about 5 years ago, I repented very fervently for many months.
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First off, if you really did repent of your sins, you only did so because without violating your free will, God himself orchestrated things in your life that would lead you back to making that choice of your own will to repent and turn to him. If God didn't do this, and just gave you the choice to repent, you wouldn't have repented and the reason why you wouldn't have, is because sin runs that deep within us.

Therefore, we also need to repent of any idea that we could ever come to God only based on him giving us the choice to repent alone.

In other words, nobody repents and gets truly saved just by their own choice to do so, but rather God maps out their lives and without ever violating their free will, he works around it in their lives to bring them to the point where of their own free will they give up on themselves and turn to him in repentance and faith.
Dizerner said:
If you would like just a short argument against Eternal Security (I use the term OSAS loosely here), I can paste it in from another forum.

I don't believe we need a form of eternal security to feel secure. We should not be trusting a doctrine anyway, we should be directly trusting God himself.​
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OSAS assumes any promise it finds in the Bible is unconditional, but this assumption is unwarranted.​
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Consider this verse: "I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from Me!" 1 Sam. 2:30. ​
The original promise did not directly address the conditions involved, they were assumed from other Bible passages.​
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Your first error of interpretation in the above verse is that this is not a promise from God but rather a commandment from God.

In other words, "Your house and the house of your Fathers will walk before me forever" is a commandment from God and not a promise from God and therefore God didn't change his mind about anyone's spiritual salvation in this verse at all.

Your second error is that you didn't also show the rest of what God said right after this, "I will honor those who honor me".

Your third error, is that you fail to understand that although all of ethnic Israel were saved physically out of Egypt, not all of the ethnic people of Israel were actually saved or would be saved spiritually to be the children of the promise but only a remnant of them were and Paul in Romans 9 very clearly reveals this also.

That is why out of the first generation that were physically saved from Egypt only two were saved spiritually but the rest died in their sins in the wilderness.

For God gave them a two part promise, one referring only to those born of the flesh and the other to those who would be his elect to be born of the Spirit.

The one was that they would be in number as the sand of the sea shore and which represents the ethnic only physical seed and physical salvation of the flesh and the other was that they would be in number like the stars of the heavens and this represented those (always a remnant) who would be spiritually saved.

Note, when you look at the sand and compare it with the stars, you would naturally see that there is much more sand than there are stars and which reveals that the spiritual people would be a remnant compared to the physical descendants.


Dizerner said:
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Could eternal security be more clearly stated?​
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100% yes, it could be more clearly stated.​
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For this promise to mean eternal security it must with absolute clarity and precision make it clear that there are no conditions and variables that could apply to it.​
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Now that is funny, for you are demanding eternal security to be clearly stated when you you don't require this about your idea that God is a trinity of persons?

The fact is, there is much more taught about predestination and the believers eternal security than the scriptures that you put together to come up with your belief in your trinity.


Dizerner said:
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This is a presupposition brought to the text from man made ideologies, that clearly does not fit the verse I quoted nor all the times the Bible gives clear conditional warnings that express an actual potential and hypothetical.​
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As I have already shown, the presupposition here is on your part because you presumed that in 1 Samuel 2:30 God was speaking of a promise to the whole ethnic people when it wasn't but rather a commandment that they should walk before him forever.
Dizerner said:
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To make someone "feel secure" by giving them hundreds of warnings that don't apply to them but sound like they do, is the most unreliable and dishonest way God could possibly bring security to us.​
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Ah but the scriptures speak to a mixed crowd, unto those who are just sitting on the fence of faith and which the warnings pertain unto and to those who are in the faith.

You will see this if you read Hebrews 6 very carefully, for the first 12 verses are a warning to those who have only tasted of faith in Christ but haven't consumed faith in Christ in their hearts yet and then from verses 13 to the end of the chapter it is speaking to those who have consumed faith in Christ within their hearts.


Notice the words "but beloved, we are persuaded better things of you and things which ACCOMPANY SALVATION THOUGH WE THUS SPEAK.

Notice this also, "for the ground which drinks in (consumes) the rain that often falls upon it receives blessing from God but that which bears thorns and briars is rejected".

Why is it therefore rejected, because it never actually consumes the rain but only tastes it and like those who he is giving the warning unto among them and who are only born of the flesh and not the Spirit.


Dizerner said:
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Also when you say "by faith" you are implying we have to do something volitionally to apply the Work of the Cross.​
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Oh for certain, faith without works is dead but this is not referring to your works but rather the working of God by his Spirit and without which one is not truly saved at all.

This is what Paul means in Ephesians 2:8-10 below.

For by grace you are saved, through faith AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast, FOR WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS WHICH GODS HAS PREPARED IN ADVANCE THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

Notice whose works Paul is speaking of here, for it isn't yours but rather God's through his Holy Spirit working within the believer and producing within the believer what the believer could never produce himself and which is the only way that the believer could be made acceptable unto God also.
 
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Johnnybgood said:
I believe that Calvinism is impossible to "live up to".

So my questions are to the resident Calvinists

1. How often have you been wrong in your life? A "ballpark" number is acceptable

2. What is the longest you have gone without sinning and repenting?
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You can start your own thread.
 
Synergy said:
If you don't like me talking about the essential Arminian demands then tell me which demands you want me to talk about. Tell me specifically which Bible verses you're referring to so that we can have a common source of reference. I presented what the Bible essentially demands and far be it from me to tell you if you live up to it or not, especially since the Holy Spirit breathes where He desires.
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Arminianism isn't taught in the Bible. Your demand is senseless. Arminianism is taught by a man. You are his follower. You refuse to deal with the question because it will reveal you're a hypocrite.
 
TibiasDad said:
I didn't say anything about every time I sin, but generally speaking I usually know when I do something wrong, and that while I'm doing it.
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By your own standard, you have no more sacrifice for sin.

TibiasDad said:
Did you not know that that action was a sin, or did you not know that you were committing that act of sin? We become accountable when we are made cognitive of our sin. I am assuming that you confessed and repented of this act at that point.
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So you're seriously claiming that sin has no application until you're made aware that you've sinned?

How does work exactly, you claim that you know when you sin. Yet, you're "back peddling" now?

I suppose the damned are not chargeable for sin because they are not aware they've sinned?????

TibiasDad said:
If I am wrong, I apologize, but I can come to no other conclusion given your responses thus far. Until I know specific precepts that I allegedly am not living up to, your query is a meaningless phishing exposition.


Doug
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My OP was clear. If you sin continually without repenting, then, by your own standard, you are judged a sinner and are not one of God's children. Again, by your own standard.
 
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