Who can "live up to" Arminianism?

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
The penalty for the guilt of personal sin is the second death; physical death is the inheritance passed on from the results of Adam's sin. I am not burdened with the guilt of my forefather's sinful acts, but the effects of those acts are endured by all who have followed after. Paul's covetous acts, prior to understanding the commandment, " You shall not covet!", were indeed sinful, but Paul is not held as guilty until he has become cognitively conscious of what coveting is and the prohibition of it!


Doug
Sorry but it isn't referring to what is imputed in reference to God and his knowledge of sin but rather in reference to men and what they have knowledge of and therefore before God they are guilty even if they are not fully aware of exactly why.

They however will know enough that there is something wrong in their conscience albeit they will not know exactly why but that is still enough knowledge to cause them to question themselves and where they stand with God.

Furthermore, Paul in Romans 7 is not speaking of himself before he was saved but rather after he was saved and the chapter is about the tension that exists with believers between walking in God's grace and walking under the law being they know the law.

For although we are saved by grace and walk in the Spirit, there is always a tension in moments of weakness that wants to pull them back walking under the law instead of the Spirit and Paul is showing what will happen when this occurs.


What proves this, is his words "for I know that in me, that is, in my flesh dwells no good thing" for if Paul were not yet a Christian with a new heart, he would never have backed up after saying "for I know that in me" with "that is, in my flesh" for the problem of sin would have also been in his heart and not only his flesh.

Very clearly therefore Paul in Romans 7, is speaking of the problem that will occur for every believer, that while we desire to walk in God's grace by the Spirit, we will drift back in moments of the weakness of our faith, to attempting to obey God by the law and which will prove to be totally fruitless and therefore drive us back to walking in the Spirit again.


What Paul is referring to at the end of chapter 7 when he says, "therefore with my mind, I myself serve the law of God but with my flesh the law of sin" is how it is when believers desiring desiring to obey God with their mind, end up serving sin because they are caught in a moment of weakness with their faith attempting to obey God by the law.

No one has perfect faith to walk by God's grace and in the Spirit all the time without failure, but being a true Christian has a changed heart and will always want to please God, in those moments of weakness in their faith, they will occasionally attempt to obey God by the law and the failure because of this will turn them back to grace.

This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7 and it is a normal occurrence with believers and will happen also but as they grow in God's grace and in their faith and in their learning by faith to walk in the Spirit, they will have more and more success over it.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
The penalty for the guilt of personal sin is the second death; physical death is the inheritance passed on from the results of Adam's sin. I am not burdened with the guilt of my forefather's sinful acts, but the effects of those acts are endured by all who have followed after. Paul's covetous acts, prior to understanding the commandment, " You shall not covet!", were indeed sinful, but Paul is not held as guilty until he has become cognitively conscious of what coveting is and the prohibition of it!


Doug
Here is something you need to answer to then, why did God destroy the world of Noah, was it because not knowing that they were sinning, they only had to die physically because they inherited it from Adam or was it because the world had become exceedingly wicked and guilty with sin in God's sight like the Bible says?

How many of those who were destroyed in the flood would have had the law of God to be able to have a complete knowledge of the sins they were committing and in order to make them guilty of the second death the way you are taking this TD?

You see then, that they didn't only die because of what Adam did, but they died because of their own sins and the Bible is clear on this also.

But we see that God still held them accountable for their sins even though they didn't have his commandments to be completely aware of why they were guilty of them, but God obviously knew and still held them accountable for them and which is why they were destroyed and the same holds true of Sodom and Gomorrah also.
 
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Rockson

Active member
No one has perfect faith to walk by God's grace and in the Spirit all the time without failure, but being a true Christian has a changed heart and will always want to please God, in those moments of weakness in their faith, they will occasionally attempt to obey God by the law and the failure because of this will turn them back to grace.
Let me say first I have never lived a perfect life without ever yielding to sin and I'm not talking about sins like robbing a bank or what we think sins which are absolutely horrendous. I think most Christians can say such sins are out of the question even from their desires they wouldn't do. Nor want to. But of course there's a myriad number of sins we can all be tempted with and the question is, IS the potential there for us to walk free from all of them. 1 Cor 10:13 says no temptation has taken you, that he won't make a way of escape....and if you walk in the Spirit you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Rom 8 So the question is CAN WE walk in the Spirit at any one time? If we can do so any one time we can (potentially I'm speaking of) do so all the time. I'm not resisting what you're saying above but if we're not careful we can embrace a mental state, "Well i just can't overcome sin this one time!" That's when I think we're starting down the road to deceive ourselves that God's grace just isn't sufficient.
This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7 and it is a normal occurrence with believers and will happen also but as they grow in God's grace and in their faith and in their learning by faith to walk in the Spirit, they will have more and more success over it.
And sure I agree with this. Spiritual growth is very much like physical growth. You don't expect a genuine spiritual baby to have developed into great strength. It takes time BUT if some have been Christians for years and if they continue to walk in the ways of the flesh and they use as an excuse, "Well were just not perfect!" they need to make sure they do a reality check of their heart. Are they truly into the WORD and FELLOWSHIP of the Spirit whereby some of those things of the flesh would have fallen off of them years ago or are the self deceiving themselves by trying to assert they're living a normal Christian life and not to be concerned.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Let me say first I have never lived a perfect life without ever yielding to sin and I'm not talking about sins like robbing a bank or what we think sins which are absolutely horrendous. I think most Christians can say such sins are out of the question even from their desires they wouldn't do. Nor want to. But of course there's a myriad number of sins we can all be tempted with and the question is, IS the potential there for us to walk free from all of them. 1 Cor 10:13 says no temptation has taken you, that he won't make a way of escape....and if you walk in the Spirit you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Rom 8 So the question is CAN WE walk in the Spirit at any one time? If we can do so any one time we can (potentially I'm speaking of) do so all the time. I'm not resisting what you're saying above but if we're not careful we can embrace a mental state, "Well i just can't overcome sin this one time!" That's when I think we're starting down the road to deceive ourselves that God's grace just isn't sufficient.

No matter what, the tension between walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh by law still exist within those who believe and it is all a matter of faith.

Nevertheless we have a Devil who knows how to remove us from faith in God to walk in the Spirit and back to walking in our own power of the flesh under the law.

When this occurs, because we desire to do God's will with our mind and spirit, we will attempt to obey God by law in the power of the flesh and therefore fail and that is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 7.

For Paul would have never said "for I know that within me, THAT IS IN MY FLESH dwells no good thing, if he wasn't a believer already, for he made it clear that the problem was only in regards to his flesh and not his spirit which is born again.
And sure I agree with this. Spiritual growth is very much like physical growth. You don't expect a genuine spiritual baby to have developed into great strength. It takes time BUT if some have been Christians for years and if they continue to walk in the ways of the flesh and they use as an excuse, "Well were just not perfect!" they need to make sure they do a reality check of their heart. Are they truly into the WORD and FELLOWSHIP of the Spirit whereby some of those things of the flesh would have fallen off of them years ago or are the self deceiving themselves by trying to assert they're living a normal Christian life and not to be concerned.

What if they also believe falsely that they are always walking in the Spirit and never sinning willingly, wouldn't you say that is even more serious for them?

For many take the writer of Hebrews words, "if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifices for sins" to be referring to sin in general and this is not correct, for the whole book of Hebrews was written because many were turning away from the truth in Christ to go back to the covenant of the law.

The truth about this verse is easily seen if we consider his words "there remains no more or no other sacrifice for sins" because the sacrifices of bulls and goats under the law never removed sins anyhow and therefore God sent Christ to remove the sins and if they reject God's covenant in Christ, there remains no sacrifice for their sins because Christ is the only acceptable sacrifice for sins.

In other words, the sin that the writer is speaking of, is rejection of the NT covenant in Christ's blood and not sin in general and therefore many have twisted this to mean that if they commit any sin willingly, they are under the wrath of God and which is false.

This also causes many to live in a delusion of sinless perfection and although they would believe they are living it by the Spirit, the truth is that they are actually living it by the flesh and therefore it is still filthy rages in God's sight.

If those who claim to believe are able to be totally honest before God and with themselves, they have all at times sinned against God knowing fully that they were doing so and to live in a delusion that we haven't, is probably more dangerous than anything else.

For 1 John 1:8-10 very clearly reveals that all such probably were never saved at all.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Here is something you need to answer to then, why did God destroy the world of Noah, was it because not knowing that they were sinning, they only had to die physically because they inherited it from Adam or was it because the world had become exceedingly wicked and guilty with sin in God's sight like the Bible says?

How many of those who were destroyed in the flood would have had the law of God to be able to have a complete knowledge of the sins they were committing and in order to make them guilty of the second death the way you are taking this TD?

You see then, that they didn't only die because of what Adam did, but they died because of their own sins and the Bible is clear on this also.

But we see that God still held them accountable for their sins even though they didn't have his commandments to be completely aware of why they were guilty of them, but God obviously knew and still held them accountable for them and which is why they were destroyed and the same holds true of Sodom and Gomorrah also.

You err in thinking that a lack of written law is a lack of knowledge of right and wrong.

Paul said that the Gentiles did not have the written law, but still did the things written in the law and are judged accordingly. In other words, there is a natural, baseline knowledge of what is right and wrong, good and evil.

Doug
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
You err in thinking that a lack of written law is a lack of knowledge of right and wrong.

Paul said that the Gentiles did not have the written law, but still did the things written in the law and are judged accordingly. In other words, there is a natural, baseline knowledge of what is right and wrong, good and evil.

Now that is really comical, for that appears to be your position and not mine, for men still have a conscience even though thy might not have the commandments of God and that is what my point was.

That they are still guilty of sin from Adam to Moses even without the law, because they know in their conscience that what they are doing is wrong and against God's will.

Do I need to take you back to the statement you made that if they have no law, sin is not imputed unto them before God?

Silly boy! The damned are damned because they have been charged and found guilty, so their awareness is self evident! Again, "sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law."
Doug


For that is what you said in your very own words above TD, "that they are not charged with sin where there is no law" and then after I gave you Romans 5:14, you tried to cover this up with your cockamamie post where you said that they only died from Adam to Moses because of Adam's sins and which I proved you wrong again by the narrative of the flood in Genesis 6.

So now what will you do to cover your lack of knowledge of the truth about this?
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
You err in thinking that a lack of written law is a lack of knowledge of right and wrong.

Paul said that the Gentiles did not have the written law, but still did the things written in the law and are judged accordingly. In other words, there is a natural, baseline knowledge of what is right and wrong, good and evil.

Doug
Furthermore, Paul is speaking of the Gentiles who are saved and who do by nature (the new nature) the things written in the law and he is not speaking of unsaved Gentiles here.

The point is, that the law does not produce righteousness in those who attempt to live by it and which would be referring to the unsaved Jews but the Gentiles obey the law because they have a new nature being God is dwelling within their hearts by his Spirit and being they are now born again of his Spirit.

Read verse 13 right before this and also verse 15 after it, for he makes it very clear that he is speaking of the Gentiles obeying the law and being righteous by nature and this could only happen if God was dwelling within their hearts by His Holy Spirit.

This is what Paul means in verse 15 by their having the law written in their hearts and if you read Jeremiah 31:29-34 you will see that this is the promise of the New Covenant in Christ's blood, that they law would be written in the hearts of those who have believed and are under the covenant.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Now that is really comical, for that appears to be your position and not mine, for men still have a conscience even though thy might not have the commandments of God and that is what my point was.

That they are still guilty of sin from Adam to Moses even without the law, because they know in their conscience that what they are doing is wrong and against God's will.

Then we are in agreement! Glad to have you on my side! 😀
Do I need to take you back to the statement you made that if they have no law, sin is not imputed unto them before God?
Right, the sin that condemns is the sin that one is consciously aware of at some point, and which remains unrepented.


Doug
 
G

guest1

Guest
Fair enough...

I'll just say one more thing. Dizerner is on Team Truth despite his belief that God poured his Wrath out on Jesus. Perhaps the Unitarian would agree since he thinks Jesus is not God...

Me? I do not plan on quitting Team Truth. If you want me ousted, wait for Civic to return...
Well since I'm the captain of the team you are disqualified or kicked off the team. :)

And there are no non trinitarians that are on the team the same with the C's. :)

Way to many core teachings that are in opposition such as the calvinist view of sovereignty, determinism/fatalism, double predestination, tulip and many other things including the nature of God and what is over emphasized vs under-emphasized.
There are things that are an assault on Gods character in tulip, sovereignty, double predestination etc.... So I cannot partner up with such teachings as its also an attack on the gospel that is for all the world, not just the elect.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Then we are in agreement! Glad to have you on my side! 😀

Right, the sin that condemns is the sin that one is consciously aware of at some point, and which remains unrepented.

Silly boy! The damned are damned because they have been charged and found guilty, so their awareness is self evident! Again, "sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law."

Doug

Not a chance, for as we can see from you own words above, you said and I quote, Silly boy! The damned are damned because they have been charged and found guilty, so their awareness is self evident! Again, "sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law." and you used the word "law" and not the word "conscience".

Nevertheless, you will never own up to your error on this will you?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Well since I'm the captain of the team you are disqualified or kicked off the team. :)

And there are no non trinitarians that are on the team the same with the C's. :)

Way to many core teachings that are in opposition such as the calvinist view of sovereignty, determinism/fatalism, double predestination, tulip and many other things including the nature of God and what is over emphasized vs under-emphasized.
There are things that are an assault on Gods character in tulip, sovereignty, double predestination etc.... So I cannot partner up with such teachings as its also an attack on the gospel that is for all the world, not just the elect.

hope this helps !!!
Here is the Truth...

I'm going to go see my mother in the hospital today. She had a Stroke a couple of days ago. We are real people, not Bytes on the internet...
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Well since I'm the captain of the team you are disqualified or kicked off the team. :)

And there are no non trinitarians that are on the team the same with the C's. :)

Way to many core teachings that are in opposition such as the calvinist view of sovereignty, determinism/fatalism, double predestination, tulip and many other things including the nature of God and what is over emphasized vs under-emphasized.
There are things that are an assault on Gods character in tulip, sovereignty, double predestination etc.... So I cannot partner up with such teachings as its also an attack on the gospel that is for all the world, not just the elect.

hope this helps !!!
Deeper and deeper. 🥺

But you keep that team. It seems you have fallen from some essentials and have lost your way. These are tough times and the pull of the world is great especially in these last days.

But remember, we are here for you.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
Not a chance, for as we can see from you own words above, you said and I quote, Silly boy! The damned are damned because they have been charged and found guilty, so their awareness is self evident! Again, "sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law." and you used the word "law" and not the word "conscience".

Nevertheless, you will never own up to your error on this will you?

There are plenty of known, unrepented acts of sin to condemn us. Infractions unknowingly committed, whether in ignorance of the sinfulness of the action, or of the awareness that you have offended, are not judiciously held against us in grace. Once we are confronted and convicted of our sin, we then have the responsibility of responding in repentance, recompense, and reconciliation.

Doug
 
G

guest1

Guest
May the God of peace and healing
grant grace beyond belief
His loving hand revealing
the gift of pain's relief!

May body, soul and spirit
find cleansing of all ills
and find there deep within it
His good and perfect will!


Doug
Only one who is not a determinist/fatalist can pray and believe this brother. Calvin and Augustine could not affirm your prayer. Once upon a time I could not either but thank God that He is not Sovereign in the calvinist sense, not deterministic in the calvinist sense and that the prayer of a Righteous man availeth much. Praise God that He is not what they taught.
 

Rockson

Active member
Here is the Truth...

I'm going to go see my mother in the hospital today. She had a Stroke a couple of days ago. We are real people, not Bytes on the internet...
I pray and hope that your mother will recover and that both she and you and all of your family will have comfort and peace. My mother is 93 and has gone through many difficult things and so far has always seemed to come through them. Hoping you'll see some good news too.
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Only one who is not a determinist/fatalist can pray and believe this brother. Calvin and Augustine could not affirm your prayer. Once upon a time I could not either but thank God that He is not Sovereign in the calvinist sense, not deterministic in the calvinist sense and that the prayer of a Righteous man availeth much. Praise God that He is not what they taught.
One of little understanding. 🙂
 
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