Who here has the Holy Spirit? How can I (as an outside observer) be sure that you do?

Timket

Active member
2) Where does the Bible teach that we are to continue this practice?

Matthias took Judas' "bishoprick" in Acts 1, and Paul says that other men would have the same office too:

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick (ἐπισκοπὴν) let another take.

1 Tim 3:1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop (ἐπισκοπῆς), he desireth a good work.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member

So that is how you determine correct doctrine.
You study the Bible.

but apparently Shnarkle did after intense study, as well as a few other people on this board - and that's the problem. If study is all that's necessary, how did he end there?

I have no idea, nor is it relevant.
I can't control anyone else, I can only control myself.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Paul says that other men would have the same office of Episcopos just as the Apostles did:

1 Tim 3:1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop (ἐπισκοπῆς), he desireth a good work.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick (ἐπισκοπὴν) let another take.

Apostle and bishop are not the same office.
 

Timket

Active member
Apostle and bishop are not the same office.
I wasn't trying to argue that they were but I was trying to answer your question "Where does the BIBLE teach "the apostles in turn appointed others"? - they did appoint others (i.e. as Episcopoi).
 

Timket

Active member
I have no idea, nor is it relevant.
I can't control anyone else, I can only control myself.
I think it is relevant - he used the same method as you (intensely study scripture) and wound up denying Christ's divinity. Doesn't that make you question the method? Also take a look at the Trinity forum: they all study scripture, sometimes in the original language, and they're still in heresy.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I wasn't trying to argue that they were but I was trying to answer your question "Where does the BIBLE teach "the apostles in turn appointed others"? - they did appoint others (i.e. as Episcopoi).

Neither of your proof-texts says that Apostles were to appoint bishops.
And since the Apostles aren't even around anymore, it's a moot point anyway.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I think it is relevant -

Then I guess we disagree, don't we?

he used the same method as you (intensely study scripture) and wound up in heresy. Doesn't that make you question the method?

Nope.

I mean, take a look at the Trinity forum: they all post scripture, sometimes in the original language, and they're still in heresy.

You seem to be trying to argue that if can't get a unanimous view, then all study is irrelevant.
I'm sorry, I have to disagree.
 

Timket

Active member
You seem to be trying to argue that if can't get a unanimous view, then all study is irrelevant.
I'm sorry, I have to disagree.

I'm not saying study is irrelevant, I'm saying it's not always a foolproof method. You see that firsthand when you post on the Arminian forum. So what's the takeaway - did the people with different views not study hard enough?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I'm not saying study is irrelevant, I'm saying it's not foolproof to arrive at correct doctrine. You see that firsthand when you post on the Arminian forum, I'm sure. So what's the takeaway - did the people with different views not study hard enough?

1) They may have had other authorities;
2) They have had come to the table with biased ideas about God;
3) They may have done more "proof-texting" than reading epistles all the way through;
4) They may be blind to what is explicitly in the text, contrasted with what assumptions they are making;
 

Timket

Active member
1) They may have had other authorities;
2) They have had come to the table with biased ideas about God;
3) They may have done more "proof-texting" than reading epistles all the way through;
4) They may be blind to what is explicitly in the text, contrasted with what assumptions they are making;
Thank you for the thorough response.
How can you be 100% sure that you (Theo) don't have biased ideas?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I've been lurking around the forums and came up with a question:

Everyone here claims to have the Holy Spirit. And yet everyone disagrees. So how can I, as an outside observer (neither Catholic nor Protestant/Evangelical) determine who's telling the truth and who really has the Holy Spirit?

I can't be sure that you have the Holy Spirit just because:
  • "Because I study my Bible and pray" - everyone here claims to do that, and they all disagree.
  • "Because I follow what God's word says" - everyone claims to do that too: the Oneness Pentecostals, the Calvinists, the Catholics, the Arminians...

So what objective test am I going to use to separate the true from the deceived?
Seems that 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, Galatians 5:22-25, James 3 and godly wisdom and Romans 8:3-9, and 2 Peter 1:2-13, with emphasis on vss 5-8 would answer this question.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
How can you be 100% sure that you don't have biased ideas?

If you want to believe that, then go ahead and believe that.
I have people who believe I'm not saved, and I don't care if they believe that as well.
It falls under the category of "not my problem".

You seem like you only want to argue, and frankly, I'm not interested.
 

Timket

Active member
If you want to believe that, then go ahead and believe that.

I didn't say I believed it - I'm genuinely curious how you can be 100% sure you don't have any unperceived bias (which, by definition, is not something you'd be aware you had).

You seem like you only want to argue, and frankly, I'm not interested.
Actually, to be totally honest, this forum wears me out and I've left twice already. I don't like arguing. I'm genuinely curious.
 
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4Him

Administrator
Staff member
Please correct if I misinterpreted - Gary said:


And you replied:

Ask God as in search the Scriptures....God doesn't audibly speak to you, He speaks to us via His word.

I didn't tell you to 'go ask God'......I said to search His word.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Jesus refutes your idea that belief doesn't exist.
But beliefs do exists. Beliefs run amuck among religious folk, that is why none of these can agree about anything of their beliefs for a god.
Then what are you emplying. The impression I get from you is Christians are sinners? Have you not said everyone sins?
As in I and the Father are one?
No one has argued against this.
Good
We aren't saved FROM God, but from His wrath.
That is what i said -- We are saved by God
Yes, I am.
Make up your mind. Are you a sinner or are your cleansed from sin? You cant be in both.
I'm sure that's what you think....but that's not even remotely true.
I see so Jesus didnt say that the Father sent him to show us the way the truth and the life to live and no one comes to the father but his way? ANd that when he said to be one in the Father as her was one in Him isnt remotly true? And When he said to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect he was just kidding? How about when he said that in that day ye shall ask me nothing but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you that he didnt mean it?

It isnt what I think at all, it is what Jesus said I would be if I come to him. I did and he did what he said he would do in me.

Jesus said -- Come unto me. Not many do do they? Most wait for him to come to them instead. How many do you know are waiting for him to come to them? How many do you know who went to him to be the things Jesus said you will be if you do come to him and the same place in the Father he was at in the Father?

May I enquire why the things Jesus said we will be IF is not remotly true for you? Does not your beliefs contradict with what Jesus said you will be IF?

If I am misunderstanding your intent then please explain your intentions for to me it seems what Jesus said of us and himself isnt remotly true for you.
 

4Him

Administrator
Staff member
But beliefs do exists. Beliefs run amuck among religious folk, that is why none of these can agree about anything of their beliefs for a god.

Then what are you emplying. The impression I get from you is Christians are sinners? Have you not said everyone sins?

As in I and the Father are one?

Good

That is what i said -- We are saved by God

Make up your mind. Are you a sinner or are your cleansed from sin? You cant be in both.

I see so Jesus didnt say that the Father sent him to show us the way the truth and the life to live and no one comes to the father but his way? ANd that when he said to be one in the Father as her was one in Him isnt remotly true? And When he said to be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect he was just kidding? How about when he said that in that day ye shall ask me nothing but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you that he didnt mean it?

It isnt what I think at all, it is what Jesus said I would be if I come to him. I did and he did what he said he would do in me.

Jesus said -- Come unto me. Not many do do they? Most wait for him to come to them instead. How many do you know are waiting for him to come to them? How many do you know who went to him to be the things Jesus said you will be if you do come to him and the same place in the Father he was at in the Father?

May I enquire why the things Jesus said we will be IF is not remotly true for you? Does not your beliefs contradict with what Jesus said you will be IF?

If I am misunderstanding your intent then please explain your intentions for to me it seems what Jesus said of us and himself isnt remotly true for you.

I can’t explain anything any more than I already have.

I’m a sinner saved by grace through faith. All of His children are.

All you have accomplished is word games. It’s your M.O.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
I can’t explain anything any more than I already have.

I’m a sinner saved by grace through faith. All of His children are.

All you have accomplished is word games. It’s your M.O.
I understand. As for me He came and took away the sins of this world as He promised He would do and came to me and sup with me and be ion me and made me perfect as He is perfect by His same SPirit be in me who was in Christ Jesus perfections in the father.

And I suppose that would be word games for one who doesnt understand the words of Jesus Christ that he said we should be and have from the Father the same as he had from Him to be one in Him as he was one in Him. That isnt word games at all. The game is beliefs that are contrary to the reality of living those words yourself.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
No. There's only one person that judges souls, and I'm not about to boot Him from the Judgment Seat and think I can take His place. Regarding your muslim and buddhist - did they even hear about Jesus? Did the Buddhist live before Jesus walked the earth? Did they live in remote Uzbekistan and never encountered a Christian?
What did Jesus say?
"I am the bread and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through me"
Do Buddhists and Muslims believe He is the way?
I asked how I can "be sure that you have the Holy Spirit" - it wasn't a question about salvation.
No one can have the Holy Spirit without being Saved. So it goes hand in hand.

What I do know is that anyone who believes salvation is possible without faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior does not have the Holy Spirit.
 
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