Who is the boss?
- Thread starter Truther
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Trinitarians don't believe as you say. But the only error it has presented is that in One God there are three distinct Persons in order to maintain distinctions in Father, Son and The Holy Spirit.
Undoubtedly, one can't deny distinctions in NT but the foundational error is making them Persons. God can be personal but He is far from being Person/Persons.
NT is primarily addressed to the Jews (Southern Kingdom which still existed in the first century) as well as the lost sheep of the house of Israel (northern Kingdom that was split after the death of Solomon).
Matthew starts with the genealogy of Messiah - that relates to Israel and so does Luke - which goes back to Adam who was a figure of Messiah.
The genealogy doesn't mean that the Messiah was a created being as He took supernatural birth in the womb of Mary without having anything to do with Mary's genes. His body of flesh was prepared for Him and was not from the dust of the earth as Adam had. He came in our likeness but not in our sinful exactness. Had He derived His body from Mary's genes He would have been disqualified as being sinful within which He was far from.
Without understanding the history of Israel from OT, it's impossible to understand the NT.
The Fatherhood of God is entirely based on His covenant relationship with Israel. It has nothing to do with the Ist Person of Trinity as being wrongly taught in Christendom. The Father and The Son aren't two distinct Persons of Trinity but rather dipict everlasting covenant relationship between YHWH and Spiritual Israel.
OT Israel was under a conditional covenant based on their obedience to God's Torah under Levitical system of priesthood. This Torah in depth had a spiritual pointer to Messiah as its goal which carnal Israel failed to understand. Their disobedience put them in trouble and finally leading to the split in the Kingdom. It further lead to the dispersion of the northern kingdom from their Assyrian captivity where as the southern kingdom/house returned back from their Babylonian captivity and still existed at the time of Christ's ministry and during the Apostolic times.
Christ said in Mat 15:24 that He specifically came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
New Covenant is the union of the two split houses of Israel under spiritual High Priest after the order of Melekitsedeq and Kingship of Messiah:
Heb 8:8-11
For finding fault with them, He says, “See, the days are coming,” says יהוה, “when I shall conclude with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of Yehuḏah a renewed covenant,
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Mitsrayim, because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them,” says יהוה.
10 “Because this is the covenant that I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, says יהוה, giving My laws in their mind, and I shall write them on their hearts, and I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall by no means teach each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ because they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
V11 the only way of knowing YHWH is by inward written Torah in hearts and minds unlike the outward OT Torah.
We can only be accepted if we as strangers grafted among them in Messiah.
That's false dispensational theory of Christendom. It's only Israel and nothing but Israel in both OT and NT.
You are dividing the scriptures as partly for Christendom and partly for future Israel. Whole scriptures are one unit:
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That's the reason Christendom is divided over theology and doctrines. I walked out of Christianity several years back because it fails to understand the true gospel of the Hebrew Messiah.
In OT strangers could join Israel under one Torah - the same goes with NT because it's primarily written to Jews and lost sheep of the house of Israel wrongly tagged as gentiles. We can only be accepted if we are grafted among them:
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, have been grafted in among them, and came to share the root and fatness of the olive tree,
They are not grafted to Christianity but rather we are grafted among them.
You are misinformed. There is no future covenant. There is only one new Covenant. You are trying to split hair by splitting scriptures to suit your kind of denominational doctrines. Messiah will come again only for judgement:
The Book of Hebrew is written to the Hebrews. Look at what the writer says:
Heb 9:26 For if so, He would have had to suffer often, since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself.
27 And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment,
28 so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto deliverance.
He is coming a second time for those who are waiting for their final salvation as He already paid for their sins.
In OT, animal sacrifices were offered under Levetical system of priesthood. Now He has fulfilled for them as was promised in the same Torah of OT. Israel still existed at the time of Messiah's death and resurrection and they still exist today after 2000 years. There is no future covenant with Israel. The misunderstanding is only because of incorporation of false Christendom in the middle which takes the focus away from God's only people Israel.
Truther
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You think Jesus is a metaphor?
Truther
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We are grafted into God, not an O.T. belief system.
We are Grafted into God Himself, not Israel......
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump(God) is also holy: and if the root(God) be holy, so are the branches.(Israel)
17 And if some of the branches(Israel) be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with thempartakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree(God)
18 Boast not against the branches.(Israel) But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root,(God) but the root(God) thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches(Israel) were broken off, that I might be grafted in.(To God)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off(from God), and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches,(Israel) take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.(from God)
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.(to God)
There are 2 trees here.....God is the good olive tree and all mankind is the wild olive tree(both Jew and Gentile)...
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree(God) how much more shall these, which be the natural branches(Israel), be grafted into their own olive tree?(God)
You see , God Himself is the good olive tree, sinful man, both Jew and Gentile is the branch grafted from a wild olive tree. Israel was not a tree, but grafted into a tree. Israel was a branch that PRECEDED the Gentiles, originally cut out of the wild olive tree, but GRAFTED into the good olive tree(God) many centuries before Pentecost......some say we are grafted into Israel, but we are really grafted into God Himself, not Israel. They too are also just branches, like us....
John
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch(Jew or Gentile) in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch(Jew or Gentile) that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch(Jew or Gentile) cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine(God) no more can ye, except ye abide in me(God).
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches(both Jew or Gentile) He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch(Jew or Gentile), and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Truther
Active member
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Since you are not of the 12 tribes, you are excluded from this particular covenant.
If you are lucky, God may be nice to you and include you into this portion of it as a small, partial taste of it....
Hebrews 10
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt
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Truther
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Singular=plural?
DoctrinesofGraceBapt
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Truther
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Back to the OP...Can co-equal have a head over him, or is this co-equal lingo unscripturally made up by the RCC?
DoctrinesofGraceBapt
Member
I already answered this. Yes, Jesus is co-equal with God the Father with respect to his divine nature, and Jesus has a head over him with respect to his role.
PS: The "co-equal lingo" was coined in the east with minimal influence from Rome. If you going to reject Rome, then at least drop RCC propaganda.
God Bless
Truther
Active member
You do realize your spiritual mother is the RCC since they flaunt the co-equal trinity doctrine you adhere to, right?
You are not far from the tree you fell from.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt
Member
You historical and theological understanding is abysmal. Ever heard of the Orthodox Church? Ever heard of the five patriarchs? Obviously not. In all seriousness, you are far, far closer to RCC than I am: baptismal regeneration, works necessary for salvation, etc.
God Bless
Truther
Active member
Like I said. You are a Catholic with minor Baptist traits. Your mother RCC will never disown you as long as you adhere to her trinity doctrine. She thinks quite fondly of her daughters.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt
Member
The empty assertions of one who is totally ignorant. How can this be true when in reality you are much more a Catholic with minor Oneness traits than I am a Catholic with minor Baptist traits? Can you please make meaningful arguments that actually correspond with reality? It's not my fault that the Catholics got the Trinity right: a dogma that was widely accepted long before the RCC existed. Try telling a Greek Orthodox that one: you might get a fist in the nose for the insult.
God Bless
Truther
Active member
If you cut and paste the official RCC trinity doctrine, there is not a single word of it you would disagree on.
This is a litmus test of an RCC affiliate.
Thou art the man.
It's not as you misunderstand.
Acts 2:14 & 22 is addressed to both the houses of Judea and Israel. That's the beginning of the NT Assembly.
Galatians was written to Israel as an whole:
Gal 4:1-5 - read all the verses. But will quote only one verse for want of space:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Paul is not writing of a future covenant but already in effect at the time of writing of his epistle.
1Cor 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
The fathers above are not church fathers but OT fathers who are related to the present day Israelites.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the *firstborn among many brethren*.
The Son is the firstborn Spiritual Israel representing His people Israel as the firstborn son:
Exod 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, *Israel is my son, even my firstborn*:
Just as Israel, His people were called out of Egypt - The only spiritual Son of God is called out of Egypt to fulfill representation of His people Israel:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
I can show you every epistle was written to Israel which was divided in OT into two houses - Judea and Israel.
The parable of the lost sheep, the parable of the prodigal son and many more parables were taught by Christ to His disciples concerning His coming was only to seek the lost sheep of the house of Israel:
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Messiah wasn't sent for anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
When John addresses 'Sheep' in his gospel account, he was referring to those same lost sheep of the house of Israel.
NT can't be understood if one is not familiar with OT Israel.
Christ came for Israel particularly and if one claims to be a believer in Christ - one has to see himself/herself as grafted among them with the Torah in heart and mind. One can't live a life of lawlessness and believe in Christ at the same time.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt
Member
The RCC didn't exist as you think prior to say 800AD. The term Trinity was coined in 170AD and was codified into canon law in the 4th century. You are literally centuries off kilter. The Greek Orthodox has a far, far better claim to antiquity than Rome does. And, their view of the Trinity is the same. How on earth is the Trinity a litmus test of the RCC when many Orthodox, that have never had any connection to Rome, believe the same? In reality, you're just ignorant.
God Bless
Truther
Active member
What tribe are you from?