Who is the boss?

Truther

Member
The RCC didn't exist as you think prior to say 800AD. The term Trinity was coined in 170AD and was codified into canon law in the 4th century. You are literally centuries off kilter. The Greek Orthodox has a far, far better claim to antiquity than Rome does. And, their view of the Trinity is the same. How on earth is the Trinity a litmus test of the RCC when many Orthodox, that have never had any connection to Rome, believe the same? In reality, you're just ignorant.

God Bless
The origins of the RCC date back to the universal(Catholic) church of Constantine in 325AD.

It took some time for the RCC to gain enough power and develop it's trinity doctrine.

You think it started in a day?

Also, it took over 100 years later of an extra scriptural idea from some fella since the death of most of the Apostles to concoct the trinity lingo?

Figures.
 

Anthony

Member
We are adopted into national Israel's future covenant.

There is only 1 covenant to the fathers and it has not yet fully come to pass until Christ returns to save them from extinction.(Zech 14, etc)

It has only been revealed to the church in a partial way now, but when Christ returns to save every single one of them from the least to the greatest to fulfill His promise, our blinders(dark glasses) will fall off and the church's partial gifts will cease(be unnecessary).

This is exactly what the Bible teaches us about who we are and who they are.
Repeating the same things by you doesn't bring about the truth.
There can never be a futuristic physical nation of Israel.

Israel as a nation was dismantled finally when the Kingdom of God transitioned from physical to be spiritual one.

You are looking at the present happenings in the middle East which has nothing to do with Messiah. They aren't true Israelites. Israelites are dispersed among the nations of the world:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

1Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Apostles believed Israelites were living as strangers scattered abroad.

There is not going to be Israel again as a physical nation because Law/Torah was given to them under physical Levitical Priesthood which required animal sacrifices and other ceremonial Laws.

The Torah has changed the way it's kept with a change of priesthood from Levitical to Melekitsedeq. You can't revert it back because that would be the spirit of Anti-Christ that takes hold of unbelieving carnal Israelites.

John 4:21
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

It's crystal clear that it's a spiritual kingdom.

I don't know by what spirit you are believing something not taught in scriptures.
 

Anthony

Member
What tribe are you from?
Ethnicity doesn't matter today. It's enough to see myself grafted to the covenant Israel in spiritual reality.

The northern kingdom of Israel was long ago dispersed after their Assyrian captivity and intermingled with heathens and lost their ethnicity whereas The Judean Jews maintained their tribal ethnicity and remnant of them do believe in their Messiah and do believe that the kingdom now is spiritual.

That's the good news that was taught to Abraham that he would be the Father of many nations.
 

Anthony

Member
The origins of the RCC date back to the universal(Catholic) church of Constantine in 325AD.

It took some time for the RCC to gain enough power and develop it's trinity doctrine.

You think it started in a day?

Also, it took over 100 years later of an extra scriptural idea from some fella since the death of most of the Apostles to concoct the trinity lingo?

Figures.
You are also part of that system of Christianity which has nothing to do with the true Christ/Messiah.

Torah has only changed in respect of the change in priesthood and ceremonial that physical nation of Israel was involved in both rest of the Torah is intact.
 

Truther

Member
Repeating the same things by you doesn't bring about the truth.
There can never be a futuristic physical nation of Israel.

Israel as a nation was dismantled finally when the Kingdom of God transitioned from physical to be spiritual one.

You are looking at the present happenings in the middle East which has nothing to do with Messiah. They aren't true Israelites. Israelites are dispersed among the nations of the world:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

1Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Apostles believed Israelites were living as strangers scattered abroad.

There is not going to be Israel again as a physical nation because Law/Torah was given to them under physical Levitical Priesthood which required animal sacrifices and other ceremonial Laws.

The Torah has changed the way it's kept with a change of priesthood from Levitical to Melekitsedeq. You can't revert it back because that would be the spirit of Anti-Christ that takes hold of unbelieving carnal Israelites.

John 4:21
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

It's crystal clear that it's a spiritual kingdom.

I don't know by what spirit you are believing something not taught in scriptures.
You just debunked half of Bible prophecy.
 

Truther

Member
Ethnicity doesn't matter today. It's enough to see myself grafted to the covenant Israel in spiritual reality.

The northern kingdom of Israel was long ago dispersed after their Assyrian captivity and intermingled with heathens and lost their ethnicity whereas The Judean Jews maintained their tribal ethnicity and remnant of them do believe in their Messiah and do believe that the kingdom now is spiritual.

That's the good news that was taught to Abraham that he would be the Father of many nations.
You are grafted into GOD as Israel.

Not, grafted into Israel.

Just like you can backslide from GOD, not Israel.

Israel is anyone that God calls.

God made promises to the fathers about their physical descendants, then included us in the promise to bring us to Himself.

You can join up with 'Israel", and I will join up with God.
 

Truther

Member
You are also part of that system of Christianity which has nothing to do with the true Christ/Messiah.

Torah has only changed in respect of the change in priesthood and ceremonial that physical nation of Israel was involved in both rest of the Torah is intact.
Torah is for sinners....


9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
 
The origins of the RCC date back to the universal(Catholic) church of Constantine in 325AD.

That's Roman Catholic propaganda. The RCC had nothing to do with the Christianity of the 4th century. All one has to do is to look at the writings of Church Fathers like Cyprian who considered himself the secussor to Peter as the bishop of Catharage. The RCC grew out of the western Church over the five centuries that followed Constantine. Augustine himself led a synod of African bishops condemning Plagueis and the Rome pontiff who was protecting him. The Roman Church in the 4th and 5th century cannot be equated with what came to be known as the RCC.

It took some time for the RCC to gain enough power and develop it's trinity doctrine.

Interesting theory given that that the term Trinity was coined and accepted as the dominant position centuries before Constantine.

You think it started in a day?

Also, it took over 100 years later of an extra scriptural idea from some fella since the death of most of the Apostles to concoct the trinity lingo?

Figures.

Hello? Still 200 years before Constantine. What's sad is that you can't see the difference between believe a doctrine and coining a term to describe said doctrine.

God Bless
 

Anthony

Member
Torah is for sinners....


9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
You barely understand that Paul wasn't writing to a bunch of modern day so called Christians but was writing to the unbelieving Jews who depended on their works of Torah rather than Messiah as the goal of Torah.

It doesn't mean Torah is totally abrogated as Christendom thinks it to be.

First see the context of scriptures you quoted from:

1Tim 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Who was Paul talking about? Who were teaching the Torah? It's the unbelieving Jews who taught the Torah in self-righteousness without understanding that the Torah leads to death apart from the works of Messiah.

You got to harmonize all scriptures and Paul tells in Romans that the Torah is not abolished:

Rom 7:12 So that the Torah truly is set-apart, and the command set-apart, and righteous, and good.

14 For we know that the Torah is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

The problem was not with The Torah but the real problem is the sin within working death against the Torah of God.

That's the reason John calls all those Jews denying that Jesus/Yahusha Christ/Messiah has come in flesh as anti-Christs.

Israel after flesh weren't able to obey because Torah is spiritual and it required Spiritual Seed of God -Jesus Christ to come in flesh to fulfill obedience for Israel as an whole as well as individually.

This is the essence of the gospel missing in Christendom which will lead individuals to destruction.

The works of the Torah by fleshly men doesn't work out righteousness. The righteous are the only ones who have Christ (personifying Torah) in them.

Coming back to Paul, he teaches that the Torah is rather established firmly in Christ as the fruit of obedience:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

All of Paul's epistles are addressed to his fellow Jews as well as the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He is not writing to a bunch of so called modern day lawless Christians who have no understanding of Torah.

The definition of sin is breaking the Torah which has not changed even today:

1John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whoever abiding in Jesus Christ will not sin - in other words, he will not break the Torah but rather have it as a fruit of righteousness.
 

Anthony

Member
You are grafted into GOD as Israel.

Not, grafted into Israel.

Just like you can backslide from GOD, not Israel.

Israel is anyone that God calls.

God made promises to the fathers about their physical descendants, then included us in the promise to bring us to Himself.

You can join up with 'Israel", and I will join up with God.
It's God's Israel - His Covenant people. In order to be in the covenant of God you need to be part of Israel or else god you are following is heathen god who can't save.

YHWH didn't reveal Himself to heathen people but to Israel through His covenant of Torah which was spiritually pointing to Christ as its goal.
 

Truther

Member
That's Roman Catholic propaganda. The RCC had nothing to do with the Christianity of the 4th century. All one has to do is to look at the writings of Church Fathers like Cyprian who considered himself the secussor to Peter as the bishop of Catharage. The RCC grew out of the western Church over the five centuries that followed Constantine. Augustine himself led a synod of African bishops condemning Plagueis and the Rome pontiff who was protecting him. The Roman Church in the 4th and 5th century cannot be equated with what came to be known as the RCC.



Interesting theory given that that the term Trinity was coined and accepted as the dominant position centuries before Constantine.



Hello? Still 200 years before Constantine. What's sad is that you can't see the difference between believe a doctrine and coining a term to describe said doctrine.


God Bless
Were the Apostles the church fathers or some other fellas?
 

Truther

Member
You barely understand that Paul wasn't writing to a bunch of modern day so called Christians but was writing to the unbelieving Jews who depended on their works of Torah rather than Messiah as the goal of Torah.

It doesn't mean Torah is totally abrogated as Christendom thinks it to be.

First see the context of scriptures you quoted from:

1Tim 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Who was Paul talking about? Who were teaching the Torah? It's the unbelieving Jews who taught the Torah in self-righteousness without understanding that the Torah leads to death apart from the works of Messiah.

You got to harmonize all scriptures and Paul tells in Romans that the Torah is not abolished:

Rom 7:12 So that the Torah truly is set-apart, and the command set-apart, and righteous, and good.

14 For we know that the Torah is Spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

The problem was not with The Torah but the real problem is the sin within working death against the Torah of God.

That's the reason John calls all those Jews denying that Jesus/Yahusha Christ/Messiah has come in flesh as anti-Christs.

Israel after flesh weren't able to obey because Torah is spiritual and it required Spiritual Seed of God -Jesus Christ to come in flesh to fulfill obedience for Israel as an whole as well as individually.

This is the essence of the gospel missing in Christendom which will lead individuals to destruction.

The works of the Torah by fleshly men doesn't work out righteousness. The righteous are the only ones who have Christ (personifying Torah) in them.

Coming back to Paul, he teaches that the Torah is rather established firmly in Christ as the fruit of obedience:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

All of Paul's epistles are addressed to his fellow Jews as well as the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He is not writing to a bunch of so called modern day lawless Christians who have no understanding of Torah.

The definition of sin is breaking the Torah which has not changed even today:

1John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whoever abiding in Jesus Christ will not sin - in other words, he will not break the Torah but rather have it as a fruit of righteousness.
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


So, you think the Law was made for a righteous man?
 

Truther

Member
It's God's Israel - His Covenant people. In order to be in the covenant of God you need to be part of Israel or else god you are following is heathen god who can't save.

YHWH didn't reveal Himself to heathen people but to Israel through His covenant of Torah which was spiritually pointing to Christ as its goal.
Are you grafted into Israel or God alone?
 
That's Roman Catholic propaganda. The RCC had nothing to do with the Christianity of the 4th century. All one has to do is to look at the writings of Church Fathers like Cyprian who considered himself the secussor to Peter as the bishop of Catharage. The RCC grew out of the western Church over the five centuries that followed Constantine. Augustine himself led a synod of African bishops condemning Plagueis and the Rome pontiff who was protecting him. The Roman Church in the 4th and 5th century cannot be equated with what came to be known as the RCC.
Interesting theory given that that the term Trinity was coined and accepted as the dominant position centuries before Constantine.
Hello? Still 200 years before Constantine. What's sad is that you can't see the difference between believe a doctrine and coining a term to describe said doctrine.

Were the Apostles the church fathers or some other fellas?

Are you able to follow an argument, or are you hiding from the fact that history itself condemns you as ignorant?

God Bless
 

Truther

Member
I know you think it was the RCC, but given that name preexisted the RCC, it wasn't the RCC.

God Bless
The grievous wolves coming right after Paul were coming immediately after he left them.

This makes the Apostles doctrine your only source to obey.

Post Apostle commentary became wolf bait....attracting more wolves.
 

Anthony

Member
Are you grafted into Israel or God alone?
Which god you are talking about being grafted? There are no covenant people apart from Israel. Outside are heathens with their heathen gods.

Deut 7:6 For you are a set-apart people to יהוה your Elohim. יהוה your Elohim has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a treasured possession above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Deut 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

2 For thou art an holy people unto the unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself*, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Both are the same people Israel transitioned from old to the new covenant (Heb 8:8-11).

Gal 4:1
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

It's the same people - example Paul, Peter, James, John, etc.saw themselves transition from old to the new covenant being Jews and the rest lost sheep of the house of Israel grafted among them:

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The ones who were cut off are unbelieving Jews. The ones grafted among natural Jewish branches are partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
The Olive Tree is the covenant Israel with root as Jesus Christ.

So be careful not to speak of scriptures carelessly. Christianity has blinded people from the truth of scriptures and has lead people to lawlessness. They teach an heathen christ who has nothing to do with covenant Israel.
 

Anthony

Member
The grievous wolves coming right after Paul were coming immediately after he left them.

This makes the Apostles doctrine your only source to obey.

Post Apostle commentary became wolf bait....attracting more wolves.
That's exactly what I'm saying. But you need to judge yourself first before judging others because you are in the same dirt of the false religion called Christianity. A true Christian has nothing to do with Christianity as a religion for he is a true follower of the Christ of Israel, seed of Abraham as to his genealogy.
 
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