Who is the boss?

Anthony

Member
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


So, you think the Law was made for a righteous man?
Again you are repeating the same by stripping scriptures out of their real context of the Judaizers teaching the Torah without Christ.
 

Truther

Member
Which god you are talking about being grafted? There are no covenant people apart from Israel. Outside are heathens with their heathen gods.

Deut 7:6 For you are a set-apart people to יהוה your Elohim. יהוה your Elohim has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a treasured possession above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

Deut 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

2 For thou art an holy people unto the unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself*, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Both are the same people Israel transitioned from old to the new covenant (Heb 8:8-11).

Gal 4:1
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

It's the same people - example Paul, Peter, James, John, etc.saw themselves transition from old to the new covenant being Jews and the rest lost sheep of the house of Israel grafted among them:

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The ones who were cut off are unbelieving Jews. The ones grafted among natural Jewish branches are partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
The Olive Tree is the covenant Israel with root as Jesus Christ.

So be careful not to speak of scriptures carelessly. Christianity has blinded people from the truth of scriptures and has lead people to lawlessness. They teach an heathen christ who has nothing to do with covenant Israel.
Grafted into the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

We are not grafted into backsliders, nor the Law, but only God.
 

Truther

Member
That's exactly what I'm saying. But you need to judge yourself first before judging others because you are in the same dirt of the false religion called Christianity. A true Christian has nothing to do with Christianity as a religion for he is a true follower of the Christ of Israel, seed of Abraham as to his genealogy.
Christianity is the partially fulfilled covenant to future national Israel.

If you miss this, you need to move to Jerusalem so Jesus can save you per Zech 14 at his second coming.
 

Truther

Member
Again you are repeating the same by stripping scriptures out of their real context of the Judaizers teaching the Torah without Christ.
No, anyone teaching the church that they must obey the Law of the O.T. are inadvertently calling the saints, "sinners".

The Law is not made for a righteous man, right? Right?
 
The grievous wolves coming right after Paul were coming immediately after he left them.

You, being a member of said wolf pack, should know.

This makes the Apostles doctrine your only source to obey.

Of course; but, given that I only referenced the Church Fathers as to refute your Historical claims, this point is quite irrelevant to the discussion. The RCC simply didn't exist prior to say 800AD.

Post Apostle commentary became wolf bait....attracting more wolves.

It caught you.

God Bless
 

Truther

Member
You, being a member of said wolf pack, should know.



Of course; but, given that I only referenced the Church Fathers as to refute your Historical claims, this point is quite irrelevant to the discussion. The RCC simply didn't exist prior to say 800AD.



It caught you.


God Bless
Your "church father" doctrine are the wrong fathers.

The only fathers you should believe are the Apostles.

Some folks will believe anyone but the Apostles.

Just curious though...are their(post Apostolic commentators) writings the word of God too?

If not, why are you emulating them as the perfect truth?

You seem easy to dupe.

You better get a taste of sola scriptura, fella....



Sola scriptura​

Doctrine


Description​

Sola scriptura is a theological doctrine held by some Protestant Christian denominations that the Christian scriptures are the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice. Wikipedia
 
Your "church father" doctrine are the wrong fathers.
The only fathers you should believe are the Apostles.

Again, I only referenced the Church Fathers as to refute your Historical claims; therefore, this point is quite irrelevant to the discussion. The RCC simply didn't exist prior to say 800AD.

Some folks will believe anyone but the Apostles.
Just curious though...are their(post Apostolic commentators) writings the word of God too?
If not, why are you emulating them as the perfect truth?

How am I emulating the Church Fathers when I only referenced the Church Fathers as to refute your Historical claims? Is it fun making up narratives without evidence to justify yourself? You sound like CNN.

You seem easy to dupe.
You better get a taste of sola scriptura, fella....
Sola scriptura
Doctrin
Description
Sola scriptura is a theological doctrine held by some Protestant Christian denominations that the Christian scriptures are the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.

Do you really think baseless accusations will work? They are confirming my suspicion that you are not a serious person; outside of that, I don't see the point to make such statements?

God Bless
 

Anthony

Member
No, anyone teaching the church that they must obey the Law of the O.T. are inadvertently calling the saints, "sinners".

The Law is not made for a righteous man, right? Right?
But lawlessness is total apostasy. Sin is a result of breaking the Torah. That's what epistle of John says.

The Torah has changed only in respect of the change of priesthood but is not abrogated. We don't have to go to Jerusalem nor offer animal sacrifices but must keep all feasts of Israel which are appointment with Christ. Not pagan Christmas and Easter. The dietary laws also is still intact. Sabbath also is still intact. Ten commandments are still intact. Read the book of Acts where Apostles still kept the feasts of Israel not necessarily in Jerusalem. One has to remember to keep all all feasts holy in any country one lives. All epistles are addressed to Israel and not a bunch of Christians who are practicing lawlessness.
 

Truther

Member
Again, I only referenced the Church Fathers as to refute your Historical claims; therefore, this point is quite irrelevant to the discussion. The RCC simply didn't exist prior to say 800AD.



How am I emulating the Church Fathers when I only referenced the Church Fathers as to refute your Historical claims? Is it fun making up narratives without evidence to justify yourself? You sound like CNN.



Do you really think baseless accusations will work? They are confirming my suspicion that you are not a serious person; outside of that, I don't see the point to make such statements?


God Bless
No, you think these 2nd century etc., fathers are your founders.

You are fascinated by what some claim they said.

You think there were copyists that made copies of the original commentators' works that no longer exist, like as per the some did the N.T. scriptures.

When you run out of doctrinal ammo, you delve into these fabricated "works".

You believe extra Biblical forgeries and fake news as gospel.

All you non- sola scriptura guys do.
 

Truther

Member
But lawlessness is total apostasy. Sin is a result of breaking the Torah. That's what epistle of John says.

The Torah has changed only in respect of the change of priesthood but is not abrogated. We don't have to go to Jerusalem nor offer animal sacrifices but must keep all feasts of Israel which are appointment with Christ. Not pagan Christmas and Easter. The dietary laws also is still intact. Sabbath also is still intact. Ten commandments are still intact. Read the book of Acts where Apostles still kept the feasts of Israel not necessarily in Jerusalem. One has to remember to keep all all feasts holy in any country one lives. All epistles are addressed to Israel and not a bunch of Christians who are practicing lawlessness.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

You are either led by the Spirit and free from the Law or not led by the Spirit and bound by the Law.

You can't have both.
 
No, you think these 2nd century etc., fathers are your founders.

Nope, but they are in the history of the Church. And, they prove the RCC didn't exist before about 800 AD.

You are fascinated by what some claim they said.
You think there were copyists that made copies of the original commentators' works that no longer exist, like as per the some did the N.T. scriptures.

What on earth are you talking about?

When you run out of doctrinal ammo, you delve into these fabricated "works".
You believe extra Biblical forgeries and fake news as gospel.
All you non- sola scriptura guys do.

Are you serious? This coming from someone whose entire theological framework is base upon two eisegetically interpreted verses? When did I ever base any doctrine on the writings of Church Fathers? Answer: I've never done this. Have I ever ran out of doctrinal ammo? Nope. I've simply limited the number of topics and verses discussed for the sake of clarity. Could I dump two dozen verses that prove Jesus is God? Easily. Would I? No, such isn't helpful. If people like you can't deal with one or two verses, how would you deal with many? BTW, I've tried this before; you guys shut down and change to the topic.

So, are you ever going to make a serious reply? I'm still waiting.


God Bless
 

Truther

Member
Nope, but they are in the history of the Church. And, they prove the RCC didn't exist before about 800 AD.



What on earth are you talking about?



Are you serious? This coming from someone whose entire theological framework is base upon two eisegetically interpreted verses? When did I ever base any doctrine on the writings of Church Fathers? Answer: I've never done this. Have I ever ran out of doctrinal ammo? Nope. I've simply limited the number of topics and verses discussed for the sake of clarity. Could I dump two dozen verses that prove Jesus is God? Easily. Would I? No, such isn't helpful. If people like you can't deal with one or two verses, how would you deal with many? BTW, I've tried this before; you guys shut down and change to the topic.

So, are you ever going to make a serious reply? I'm still waiting.


God Bless
These early church fathers are no more in the history of the church than the Pope.

It matters ZERO(0) what they thought.

They are likely ancient forgeries anyway.

Only trust scripture, or you will be surely duped.
 
These early church fathers are no more in the history of the church than the Pope.

So according to your definition, the Church didn't exist until 20th century?

It matters ZERO(0) what they thought.

Doctrinally true. But, the RCC claims connection to them. Given that they fundamentally disagree with the RCC, this creates a great argument against the antiquity of the RCC. When are you going to reject the antiquity of the RCC?

They are likely ancient forgeries anyway.

Your evidence for this? Oh yeah, evidence isn't a strong point for Truther.

Only trust scripture, or you will be surely duped.

I do; why don't you? "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24, but you don't believe Jesus' words. You think being dunked with magical words spoken over you is necessary against all of Scripture.

God Bless
 

Anthony

Member
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

You are either led by the Spirit and free from the Law or not led by the Spirit and bound by the Law.

You can't have both.
You are as majority in Christendom is reading scriptures in perspective of traditional teachings of the religion of Christianity which doesn't exist in scriptures.

Paul is actually writing to his Jewish counterpart who are teaching and practicing Torah without Christ (without being saved first) which accounts to self-righteousness. Paul never taught that the Torah is done away with. That would account to lawlessness.

Read first the context in which Paul wrote. He didn't write it in general way that Torah is not for righteous person. Righteousness can never be achieved by keeping the Torah but Torah can only be kept as the fruit of being righteous.

The essence of Torah is love - Yahuah and neighbor.

If one loves YHWH one will keep His commandments and if one keeps His commandments then only he can love his neighbor.

You are teaching lawlessness by which one will be eternally condemned as being disowned by Christ:

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Love of many will be cold because iniquity will abound. The love of not knowing and keeping commandments of YHWH.

2Thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Now note:

2 These 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
 

Anthony

Member
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

You are either led by the Spirit and free from the Law or not led by the Spirit and bound by the Law.

You can't have both.
The Toah is now written spiritually in minds and hearts:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It's no longer outward like it was in OT:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

The outward form in which it was available in OT was not for righteous people but for Lawless people by which the outward form led them to condemnation.

Jesus Christ, The Son of God accuses Ephesian assembly that it has left it's first love :

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

The first love is loving God by obeying His commandments. That's the essence of Torah.

Jesus said 'if you love me obey my commandments'. What commandments? He didn't teach entirely new commandments but brought forth much spiritual depths of Torah of righteousness which He Himself fulfilled obedience for His people - not that they no longer keep it but keep them as fruit of righteousness. He Himself is the Personified form of Torah/Word of God. If Christ dwells in is then Torah dwells in our hearts and we obey Him.

Acts 20:7 Upon one of the Sabbathes, whan the disciples came together to breake bred, Paul preached vnto them, wyllinge to departe on the morow, and contynued the preachinge vnto mydnight.

One of/first of Sabbaths (wrongly translated by kjv as first day of the week) is the Sabbath count to the feast of Pentecost (7 Sabbaths count and the morrow after 7 Sabbaths - 50 days) when the disciples came to break bread - unleavened bread.

This is according to Torah. Christianity don't keep the Torah because they believe in a false Christ.

1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: note

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

We have to keep the feast of Passover not as the wicked but in sincerity and truth. It's kept in righteousness of Christ being our Passover.

You are quoting scriptures out of their proper context of Jews practicing Torah without Christ. Jews practicing the feasts like Passover with sacrifice of the literal Lamb which is actually fulfilled by Christ.

The literal feasts pointed to Christ but keeping them without faith would account to self righteousness
 

Truther

Member
So according to your definition, the Church didn't exist until 20th century?



Doctrinally true. But, the RCC claims connection to them. Given that they fundamentally disagree with the RCC, this creates a great argument against the antiquity of the RCC. When are you going to reject the antiquity of the RCC?



Your evidence for this? Oh yeah, evidence isn't a strong point for Truther.



I do; why don't you?
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24, but you don't believe Jesus' words. You think being dunked with magical words spoken over you is necessary against all of Scripture.

God Bless
The church began in Acts 2.

The reformation is now in progress.

Only those that have the exact same doctrine and experience as they had in Acts 2 are in the Acts 2 church today.

Baptists are still stuck in the middle of the reformation.

Bummer.
 

Truther

Member
The Toah is now written spiritually in minds and hearts:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It's no longer outward like it was in OT:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

The outward form in which it was available in OT was not for righteous people but for Lawless people by which the outward form led them to condemnation.

Jesus Christ, The Son of God accuses Ephesian assembly that it has left it's first love :

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

The first love is loving God by obeying His commandments. That's the essence of Torah.

Jesus said 'if you love me obey my commandments'. What commandments? He didn't teach entirely new commandments but brought forth much spiritual depths of Torah of righteousness which He Himself fulfilled obedience for His people - not that they no longer keep it but keep them as fruit of righteousness. He Himself is the Personified form of Torah/Word of God. If Christ dwells in is then Torah dwells in our hearts and we obey Him.

Acts 20:7 Upon one of the Sabbathes, whan the disciples came together to breake bred, Paul preached vnto them, wyllinge to departe on the morow, and contynued the preachinge vnto mydnight.

One of/first of Sabbaths (wrongly translated by kjv as first day of the week) is the Sabbath count to the feast of Pentecost (7 Sabbaths count and the morrow after 7 Sabbaths - 50 days) when the disciples came to break bread - unleavened bread.

This is according to Torah. Christianity don't keep the Torah because they believe in a false Christ.

1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: note

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

We have to keep the feast of Passover not as the wicked but in sincerity and truth. It's kept in righteousness of Christ being our Passover.

You are quoting scriptures out of their proper context of Jews practicing Torah without Christ. Jews practicing the feasts like Passover with sacrifice of the literal Lamb which is actually fulfilled by Christ.

The literal feasts pointed to Christ but keeping them without faith would account to self righteousness
There is no such thing as Torah per Jesus and Paul's words .

They both taught the entire O.T. is the Law.

Modernists divided it up so they could teach "partial Law".

You teach partial Law too, which is an O.T. sin.(James also depicts).

When you start killing gays and adulterers, then preach Law to me.

Otherwise, put your toys away.
 
The church began in Acts 2.

True and irrelevant. Jesus says those who believe are saved, not those who get dunked with magic words said over them.

The reformation is now in progress.
Only those that have the exact same doctrine and experience as they had in Acts 2 are in the Acts 2 church today.

I have the same doctrine as the Pentecostal Church; I follow the same Jesus they did; and Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24, but you don't believe Jesus' words. You think being dunked with magical words spoken over you is necessary against all of Scripture. What does experience have to do with the actual teaching, aka doctrine, of Jesus?

Baptists are still stuck in the middle of the reformation.
Bummer.

ROFL; says the heretic who's position was rejected long before Nicaea.

God Bless
 

Truther

Member
True and irrelevant. Jesus says those who believe are saved, not those who get dunked with magic words said over them.



I have the same doctrine as the Pentecostal Church; I follow the same Jesus they did; and Jesus said
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24, but you don't believe Jesus' words. You think being dunked with magical words spoken over you is necessary against all of Scripture. What does experience have to do with the actual teaching, aka doctrine, of Jesus?



ROFL; says the heretic who's position was rejected long before Nicaea.

God Bless
Wow, you just called Acts 2:38 magic words.

Was Peter the sorcerer of Acts 2, per Baptist doctrine?
 
Wow, you just called Acts 2:38 magic words.

Was Peter the sorcerer of Acts 2, per Baptist doctrine?

No, I called your use of those words magic. Peter believed what Jesus taught: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36, and he would have throw you out of the Church for believing that specific words are necessary for salvation. BTW, I would say the odds are about 99 to 1 that if Peter, or any other Apostle, baptized someone they would have used "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" as opposed to simply saying "in the name of Jesus". After all, the phrases means the same thing, the later is short hand for the former, the former is what Jesus ordered his disciples to use, and Luke was likely using the later to save space as paper was expensive in the first century.

God Bless
 
Top