Who is the Coming Prince in Daniel 9:26?

Truth7t7

Active member
Serious assertions without a shred of evidence presented. Since Rudolph Kittel died in 1929, when did he serve as "Hitler's high priest?

Since you're such an expert on the Masoretic text, what kinds of errors are found in the MT and could you give us 2 or 3 examples? And what do you mean by "this Hebrew Translation". Are you referring to the MT as a "translation"? If so, please elaborate.
Correction: "Rudolph Kittel Hitlers High Priest"

Gerhard Kittel, The Son Of Rudolph, who carried on the Hebrew translation of his father in Germany, was a Nazi Supporter.

Wikipedia: Gerhard Kittel
(23 September 1888 – 11 July 1948) was a German Lutheran[1] theologian and lexicographer of biblical languages. He was an enthusiastic supporter of the Nazis[5] and an open antisemite.[6] He is known in the field of biblical studies for his Theologisches Wörterbuch zum Neuen Testament (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament).[7]

NASB claims to follow the Masoretic Text, That The KJV Used? Wrong

The NASB follows the corruptions of the Masoretic Text, at the hands of Rudolph Kittel, and this Hebrew Translation Has Seen Many revisions since.

Wikipedia: Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia
, abbreviated as BHS or rarely BH4, is an edition of the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible as preserved in the Leningrad Codex, and supplemented by masoretic and text-critical notes. It is the fourth edition in the Biblia Hebraica series started by Rudolf Kittel and is published by the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft (German Bible Society) in Stuttgart.

Wikipedia: New American Standard Bible
Abbreviation:NASB (uncommonly abbreviated as NAS)
NT published:1963
Complete Bible, published:1971
Derived from:American Standard Version
Textual basis:OT: Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, Biblia Hebraica Quinta (for books available), additional sources, NT: Novum Testamentum Graece (28th ed, 2012), Editio Critica Maior (2nd ed, where Greek manuscripts available)
Translation type:Formal equivalence
Reading level:10.0
Version revision:1977, 1995, 2020
Publisher:The Lockman Foundation
 
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Arkycharlie

Active member
You now have a conspiracy on the word (prince) in Daniel 9:26 being in lower case, it has been hidden to conceal secret knowledge unto the end, the Lord allowed a mistranslation, that should be capital (P) showing Diety?

Real Big Smiles, Real Big!
:giggle:

Daniel 9:26KJV
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
You reveal yourself as an amateur by ignoring questions that you can't answer and and simply mock things that you don't understand. You're a waste of time and effort. Believe what you choose, I don't care.
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
Correction: "Rudolph Kittel Hitlers High Priest"

Gerhard Kittel, The Son Of Rudolph, who carried on the Hebrew translation of his father in Germany, was a Nazi Supporter.

Wikipedia: Gerhard Kittel
(23 September 1888 – 11 July 1948) was a German Lutheran[1] theologian and lexicographer of biblical languages. He was an enthusiastic supporter of the Nazis[5] and an open antisemite.[6] He is known in the field of biblical studies for his Theologisches Wörterbuch zum Neuen Testament (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament).[7]

NASB claims to follow the Masoretic Text, That The KJV Used? Wrong

The NASB follows the corruptions of the Masoretic Text, at the hands of Rudolph Kittel, and this Hebrew Translation Has Seen Many revisions since.

Wikipedia: Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia
, abbreviated as BHS or rarely BH4, is an edition of the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible as preserved in the Leningrad Codex, and supplemented by masoretic and text-critical notes. It is the fourth edition in the Biblia Hebraica series started by Rudolf Kittel and is published by the Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft (German Bible Society) in Stuttgart.

Wikipedia: New American Standard Bible
Abbreviation:NASB (uncommonly abbreviated as NAS)
NT published:1963
Complete Bible, published:1971
Derived from:American Standard Version
Textual basis:OT: Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, Biblia Hebraica Quinta (for books available), additional sources, NT: Novum Testamentum Graece (28th ed, 2012), Editio Critica Maior (2nd ed, where Greek manuscripts available)
Translation type:Formal equivalence
Reading level:10.0
Version revision:1977, 1995, 2020
Publisher:The Lockman Foundation
More blather and avoiding hard questions. But you can copy and paste Wikipedia which you mistakenly believe proves your faulty assertions. Your ego is surpassed only by your complete lack of understanding which should remove every trace of ego if you were aware of the extent of your ignorance. I would be humiliated if I had posted this nonsense.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
You reveal yourself as an amateur by ignoring questions that you can't answer and and simply mock things that you don't understand. You're a waste of time and effort. Believe what you choose, I don't care.
That (prince) in 9:26 below, sure dosent look like Diety to me, lower case (p)rince

Verse 25 below is (M)essiah (P)rince capital M&P showing Diety

Those King James Translators, if only they had Arkycharlie for support, back in time to 1611? :giggle:

Daniel 9:25-26KJV

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Well look there, they missed the capital in 9:26 below tooooo, lower case (p)rince, those NKJV translators, if they only had Arkycharlie :)

Daniel 9:25-26NKJV

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince,There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeksMessiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
 
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Arkycharlie

Active member
That (prince) in 9:26 below, sure dosent look like Diety to me, lower case (p)rince

Verse 25 below is (M)essiah (P)rince capital M&P showing Diety

Those King James Translators, if only they had Arkycharlie for support, back in time to 1611? :giggle:

Daniel 9:25-26KJV

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Well look there, they missed the capital in 9:26 below tooooo, lower case (p)rince, those NKJV translators, if they only had Arkycharlie :)

Daniel 9:25-26NKJV

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince,There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeksMessiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
You're a joke....
 

Truth7t7

Active member
You're a joke....
The Pharisees thought the same about Jesus, your words are a compliment (y)

Proverbs 8:13KJV
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Proverbs 14:2-3KJV
2 He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the Lord: but he that is perverse in his ways despiseth him.
3 In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.

Matthew 5:11-12KJV
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
 
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Arkycharlie

Active member
You now have a conspiracy on the word (prince) in Daniel 9:26 being in lower case, it has been hidden to conceal secret knowledge unto the end, the Lord allowed a mistranslation, that should be capital (P) showing Diety?

Real Big Smiles, Real Big!
:giggle:

Daniel 9:26KJV
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
The problem with trying to have a dialogue with you is that you're so infatuated with your own opinions that your mind is closed to new information and you're utterly clueless to the huge gaps in your understanding. I can't fix that and you can't accept it. Why don't we just agree to disagree and stop these juvenile rants to each other. They serve absolutely no useful purpose and are a pure waste of time and effort on both of our parts. I'm giving it a rest and hope that you will follow suit. The time is rapidly approaching when the truth of these matters will be revealed. I don't know about you but I can hardly wait!
 

Truth7t7

Active member
The problem with trying to have a dialogue with you is that you're so infatuated with your own opinions that your mind is closed to new information and you're utterly clueless to the huge gaps in your understanding. I can't fix that and you can't accept it. Why don't we just agree to disagree and stop these juvenile rants to each other. They serve absolutely no useful purpose and are a pure waste of time and effort on both of our parts. I'm giving it a rest and hope that you will follow suit. The time is rapidly approaching when the truth of these matters will be revealed. I don't know about you but I can hardly wait!
Arky you cant fix it, because your eschatology is in error, you have been shown this error, and refuse to accept the scriptural truth before your eyes, why?

Example Ezekiel 39: The weapons of warfare were wooden, shields, bucklers, spears, bows, arrows, this is a (Historical) event, not (Future) as you claim?

Ezekiel 39:9-10KJzv

9 Andthey that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

The scripture clearly teaches Israel went into the Babylonian Captivity, in Ezekiel 39:23 below?

Ezekiel 39:28 clearly shows the Lord delivered Israel from the 70 year Babylonian Captivity, and they returned to their land Israel/Jerusalem and left none there in Babylon?

Arky, how can you honestly claim this is a (Future) event, when these truths are staring you in the face?

Ezekiel 39:23-28KJV

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Below are two English translations of Daniel 9:26:

New American Standard Bible
Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
But after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing. The city and the holy place will be destroyed with the prince who is to come. His end will come with a flood until the end of the destructive war that has been determined.

The NASB is based on the Masoretic text. The God’s Word translation is based on the LXX. This is perhaps the single most significant verse in the OT pertaining to end times eschatology. Get it wrong and your eschatology is a house of cards. The key question is, who is the Coming Prince? I'll give you a hint. It's probably not who you think it is!
I'm with Tonyg. I believe this is Titus.
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
I'm with Tonyg. I believe this is Titus.
Well, you and Tonyg both missed the whole point of the OP. The question had to do with the significant difference between the MT and the LXX versions of Daniel 9:26. A single word (עם) is responsible for the difference because it has two different meanings depending upon how it's vocalized. It either means "people" or "with". The MT "translates" it as "people" and the LXX as "with". There's a whole story here that I'm very well equipped to tell but will not waste my time and effort telling it here where it will be basically ignored if not outright ridiculed. The correct translation is in the LXX, which is "with". There is no "people of" the Coming Prince and Titus most certainly was not that Prince. Messiah Jesus Christ was the Coming Prince and He came on the scene exactly 483 year following the decree allowing Ezra to return to Jerusalem and restore the temple worship circa 457-458 B.C. Just for the record, I don't for a moment expect anyone to take me seriously and I couldn't care less. I know what I know and I know the source and that's all that matters to me.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Well, you and Tonyg both missed the whole point of the OP. The question had to do with the significant difference between the MT and the LXX versions of Daniel 9:26. A single word (עם) is responsible for the difference because it has two different meanings depending upon how it's vocalized. It either means "people" or "with". The MT "translates" it as "people" and the LXX as "with". There's a whole story here that I'm very well equipped to tell but will not waste my time and effort telling it here where it will be basically ignored if not outright ridiculed. The correct translation is in the LXX, which is "with". There is no "people of" the Coming Prince and Titus most certainly was not that Prince. Messiah Jesus Christ was the Coming Prince and He came on the scene exactly 483 year following the decree allowing Ezra to return to Jerusalem and restore the temple worship circa 457-458 B.C. Just for the record, I don't for a moment expect anyone to take me seriously and I couldn't care less. I know what I know and I know the source and that's all that matters to me.
Your claim that (prince) lower case represents Jesus Christ is in error?

You will closely note, (Messiah Prince) & (Messiah) is Jesus Christ, "diety" all caps

People of the (prince) lower case not diety.

Will Jesus Christ come and destroy the city, with further war and desolation following?

Daniel 9:26-26KJV

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
 
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RiJoRi

Well-known member
Your claim that (prince) lower case represents Jesus Christ is in error?

You will closely note, (Messiah Prince) & (Messiah) is Jesus Christ, "diety" all caps

People of the (prince) lower case not diety.

Will Jesus Christ come and destroy the city, with further war and desolation following?

Daniel 9:26-26KJV

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Except Hebrew does not have upper- and lower-case. IT'S BASICALLY ALL CAPS. Capitalization is done by the translator(s).

--Rich
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
Except Hebrew does not have upper- and lower-case. IT'S BASICALLY ALL CAPS. Capitalization is done by the translator(s).

--Rich
Bingo! In fact, I posted the following on March 19 in this thread:

To begin with, Hebrew does not have lowercase letters. So any decision regarding such letters is made by the translators. In this case, the decision to use an upper or lower case "p" in prince is a matter of interpretation, not Hebrew grammar. And Daniel 9:26 has probably the worst mistranslation in the OT that led to the decision to make "prince" lowercase. That said, the Lord allowed it in order to assure that Daniel would remain sealed and concealed until the appointed time of the end. So tell me, why does the God's Word translation contain no reference to "people"? Since you have no idea why, I predict that you will ignore this question as is often your habit.

Unfortunately, T7 is unable to comprehend something as simple as this so we waste our time trying to educate him. I’m afraid he’s hopelessly lost in fantasies of his own making.



 

Truth7t7

Active member
Except Hebrew does not have upper- and lower-case. IT'S BASICALLY ALL CAPS. Capitalization is done by the translator(s).

--Rich
Bingo,Your Correct, 60 King James Translators Didnt See (prince) lower case as deity

View The King JamesTranslators And Their Qualifications, Beyond Comparison To Modern Scholarship

Daniel 9:26-26KJV

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
Bingo,Your Correct, 60 King James Translators Didnt See (prince) lower case as deity

View The King James Translators And Their Qualifications, Beyond Comparison To Modern Scholarship


Daniel 9:26-26KJV
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Unfortunately, T7 is unable to comprehend something as simple as this so we waste our time trying to educate him. I’m afraid he’s hopelessly lost in fantasies of his own making.
 

Truth7t7

Active member

Arkycharlie

Active member
60 Scholars On The King James Translation Didn't See It Charlie's Way Either :)

Bingo,Your Correct, 60 King James Translators Didnt See (prince) lower case as deity

View The King JamesTranslators And Their Qualifications, Beyond Comparison To Modern Scholarship

You have had plenty of opportunity to refute these posts by me:

To begin with, Hebrew does not have lowercase letters. So any decision regarding such letters is made by the translators. In this case, the decision to use an upper or lower case "p" in prince is a matter of interpretation, not Hebrew grammar. And Daniel 9:26 has probably the worst mistranslation in the OT that led to the decision to make "prince" lowercase. That said, the Lord allowed it in order to assure that Daniel would remain sealed and concealed until the appointed time of the end. So tell me, why does the God's Word translation contain no reference to "people"? Since you have no idea why, I predict that you will ignore this question as is often your habit.
Well, you and Tonyg both missed the whole point of the OP. The question had to do with the significant difference between the MT and the LXX versions of Daniel 9:26. A single word (עם) is responsible for the difference because it has two different meanings depending upon how it's vocalized. It either means "people" or "with". The MT "translates" it as "people" and the LXX as "with". There's a whole story here that I'm very well equipped to tell but will not waste my time and effort telling it here where it will be basically ignored if not outright ridiculed. The correct translation is in the LXX, which is "with". There is no "people of" the Coming Prince and Titus most certainly was not that Prince. Messiah Jesus Christ was the Coming Prince and He came on the scene exactly 483 year following the decree allowing Ezra to return to Jerusalem and restore the temple worship circa 457-458 B.C. Just for the record, I don't for a moment expect anyone to take me seriously and I couldn't care less. I know what I know and I know the source and that's all that matters to me.
Unfortunately for you, you don't remotely have the knowledge to even attempt a refutation of these claims and you're only option is to fall back on your "KJV Only" nonsense which demonstrates your manifest ignorance in these matters. Personally, I don't trust ANY translation of the Biblical text without first verifying it in the original language, which is beyond your ability or comprehension. You wouldn't know "truth" if it was staring you in the face.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Below are two English translations of Daniel 9:26:

New American Standard Bible
Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
But after the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing. The city and the holy place will be destroyed with the prince who is to come. His end will come with a flood until the end of the destructive war that has been determined.

The NASB is based on the Masoretic text. The God’s Word translation is based on the LXX. This is perhaps the single most significant verse in the OT pertaining to end times eschatology. Get it wrong and your eschatology is a house of cards. The key question is, who is the Coming Prince? I'll give you a hint. It's probably not who you think it is!
Caesar.
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
I haven't received a single response in this thread that addressed the issue that I pointed out in the OP, which is that the LXX and Masoretic text are significantly different in their translations of Daniel 9:26. And even after I explained the difference, it was ignored. I assume that this simply illustrates the ignorance of those who choose to respond. I don't care what folks choose to believe, and I take responsibility for not making the OP clearer. But this is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. There is so much more involved here that I would be glad to elucidate, but it would be ignored and a waste of time and effort. As far as I'm concerned, this thread has run its course. It appears that no one here is prepared to offer productive comments as a basis for a constructive dialogue. And no one seems to have the slightest clue as to how much they’re missing and how it absolutely precludes the development of an accurate Biblical eschatology.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
I haven't received a single response in this thread that addressed the issue that I pointed out in the OP, which is that the LXX and Masoretic text are significantly different in their translations of Daniel 9:26. And even after I explained the difference, it was ignored. I assume that this simply illustrates the ignorance of those who choose to respond. I don't care what folks choose to believe, and I take responsibility for not making the OP clearer. But this is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. There is so much more involved here that I would be glad to elucidate, but it would be ignored and a waste of time and effort. As far as I'm concerned, this thread has run its course. It appears that no one here is prepared to offer productive comments as a basis for a constructive dialogue. And no one seems to have the slightest clue as to how much they’re missing and how it absolutely precludes the development of an accurate Biblical eschatology.
Okay.
 
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