Who Justifieth the Ungodly

brightfame52

Well-known member
Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

trespasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus Christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most misleading teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace. Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condition we are in by nature when we are Justified before God..
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

trespasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus Christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most misleading teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace. Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condition we are in by nature when we are Justified before God..
This brings up a nagging question I have which is, what about those who are damned, but think they're elect? Obviously, on that day when they meet Christ, he will tell them that he never knew them, and they will be banished. However, what difference does that make now?

Isn't it better that they believe they're God's elect than to believe the truth? Seems like a crazy question, but if they're out healing, and casting out demons, God doesn't stop them, and even though it isn't according to God's will, I'm not so sure we'd like these people knowing that they're vessels of wrath, do you?
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
...
Define [The elect]; as in, when were they [The elect]?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

we are Justified before God..

Proof no one is declared righteous without faith
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
This brings up a nagging question I have which is, what about those who are damned, but think they're elect? Obviously, on that day when they meet Christ, he will tell them that he never knew them, and they will be banished. However, what difference does that make now?

Isn't it better that they believe they're God's elect than to believe the truth? Seems like a crazy question, but if they're out healing, and casting out demons, God doesn't stop them, and even though it isn't according to God's will, I'm not so sure we'd like these people knowing that they're vessels of wrath, do you?
It's a Good question...

I don't think that those who believe they are Unconditionally Elect will hear Jesus tell them he never knew them; not because they believe they are Elect, but because the Unconditional Elect HAVE to by default believe they're Justified through Faith Alone...

Otherwise they do not believe in Unconditional Election, but believe in Conditional Election...
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
It's a Good question...

I don't think that those who believe they are Unconditionally Elect will hear Jesus tell them he never knew them; not because they believe they are Elect, but because the Unconditional Elect HAVE to by default believe they're Justified through Faith Alone...
I don't understand that at all. It sounds like you're saying that the elect must be able to understand their own election, but that's a condition, no? I don't see how people can understand much of any of this, and I doubt God requires a test of one's intelligence to pass muster. The tax collector who "immediately" walked away from his pile of money to follow Christ didn't have to think about any of it. It was what we call a "no-brainer", but this doesn't mean he understood what he was doing, or at least he didn't understand the full ramifications of what he was doing. He simply noted that he had been called to eternal life, and without a thought responded to the call.
Otherwise they do not believe in Unconditional Election, but believe in Conditional Election...
They can only believe what they see, and what they see may not be understood at all. Our understanding does not stand under our faith. There is such a thing as faith seeking understanding. What is important is that they are able to respond, but even that doesn't really cut it. The good shepherd doesn't ask the cast sheep if they want to return to the sheepfold. He simply picks it up and returns it because it's his sheep. Cast sheep can't do anything. Just like dead people can't do anything. God has to give them this ability, but God doesn't give anyone an exhaustive understanding of salvation. All he has to do is give them the ears to hear their calling.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I don't understand that at all. It sounds like you're saying that the elect must be able to understand their own election, but that's a condition, no? I don't see how people can understand much of any of this, and I doubt God requires a test of one's intelligence to pass muster. The tax collector who "immediately" walked away from his pile of money to follow Christ didn't have to think about any of it. It was what we call a "no-brainer", but this doesn't mean he understood what he was doing, or at least he didn't understand the full ramifications of what he was doing. He simply noted that he had been called to eternal life, and without a thought responded to the call.

They can only believe what they see, and what they see may not be understood at all. Our understanding does not stand under our faith. There is such a thing as faith seeking understanding. What is important is that they are able to respond, but even that doesn't really cut it. The good shepherd doesn't ask the cast sheep if they want to return to the sheepfold. He simply picks it up and returns it because it's his sheep. Cast sheep can't do anything. Just like dead people can't do anything. God has to give them this ability, but God doesn't give anyone an exhaustive understanding of salvation. All he has to do is give them the ears to hear their calling.
There is a Condition for Justification; IE Faith Alone. There is no Condition for Unconditional Election though. I think that one of the hiccups in the Unconditional Election debate is the tendency to Conflate Conditional Justification with Unconditional Election. My point was that typically everyone who believes in Unconditional Election also believes in Justification through Faith Alone. ~ Does that help?
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
There is a Condition for Justification; IE Faith Alone. There is no Condition for Unconditional Election though. I think that one of the hiccups in the Unconditional Election debate is the tendency to Conflate Conditional Justification with Unconditional Election. My point was that typically everyone who believes in Unconditional Election also believe in Justification through Faith Alone. Does that help?
That helps, but I'm still not quite tracking because while I agree with what you're saying as far as faith alone, I also don't think that everyone who God calls and chooses for salvation is necessarily even going to be considering this to begin with. They may never be able to even articulate it. It may just be an acute awareness of God's will moving in their life, or perhaps they may have some revelation that it isn't their life to begin with. Any number of things may convince them that they're saved, while never actually understanding what's going on. Christ's mother comes to mind.

When God reveals his will to someone, I don't think it's communicated through the intellect. Instead, the revelation is carried out according to God's will, and perhaps those who can, will then attempt to convey what has been revealed to them. Peter points out that Paul isn't always the easiest person to understand. I don't think there are any caveats to that comment that exclude unconditional election, or justification through faith alone.

Another way to put it would be to note that someone may see that God is moving in their lives, but not be able to articulate justification through faith alone. Someone else may articulate it, and they would probably agree, but being able to articulate it isn't what justifies someone; accepting it without question seems to be more relevant to me. Again, Mary comes to mind.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
That helps, but I'm still not quite tracking because while I agree with what you're saying as far as faith alone, I also don't think that everyone who God calls and chooses for salvation is necessarily even going to be considering this to begin with. They may never be able to even articulate it. It may just be an acute awareness of God's will moving in their life, or perhaps they may have some revelation that it isn't their life to begin with. Any number of things may convince them that they're saved, while never actually understanding what's going on. Christ's mother comes to mind.

When God reveals his will to someone, I don't think it's communicated through the intellect. Instead, the revelation is carried out according to God's will, and perhaps those who can, will then attempt to convey what has been revealed to them. Peter points out that Paul isn't always the easiest person to understand. I don't think there are any caveats to that comment that exclude unconditional election, or justification through faith alone.

Another way to put it would be to note that someone may see that God is moving in their lives, but not be able to articulate justification through faith alone. Someone else may articulate it, and they would probably agree, but being able to articulate it isn't what justifies someone; accepting it without question seems to be more relevant to me. Again, Mary comes to mind.
I'm glad it helped, and I agree that no one has to have even heard of Unconditional Election to be Justified through Faith Alone...

My point to your first comment, was that typically everyone who believes in Unconditional Election also believes in Justification through Faith Alone; so no one who believes in UE will probably hear "Depart from me you Workers of Iniquity, for I never Knew you"...
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
I'm glad that helped, and I agree that no one has to have even heard of Unconditional Election to be Justified through Faith Alone...

My point to your first comment, was that typically everyone who believes in Unconditional Election also believes in Justification through Faith Alone; so no one who believes in UE will probably hear "Depart from me you Workers of Iniquity, for I never Knew you"...
I think I'm coming from a different perspective with regards to belief, especially in doctrines. I think there's a world of difference between those who have "witnessed" the risen Christ versus those who have been taught doctrines concerning the risen Christ. The former can only "confess" what they have witnessed while the latter can only 'profess' what they've been taught.

While those who believe the good news without any way of verifying it, may be blessed, they are nonetheless not witnesses. They have not received Christ. Everyone in the bible believes what they have seen rather than hallucinating what they've been taught to believe.

I think where those who believe are blessed is in their obedience to God's law which reveals not only God's will, but the ability to understand why God wills that each law be kept. This not only reveals our inability to keep God's laws through our own will and effort, but reveals that they can only be kept in, with, and through the faith of Christ indwelling within the new creation.

God's commandments are a "learn by doing" methodology.

Seeing is believing.
 
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guest1

Guest
I think I'm coming from a different perspective with regards to belief, especially in doctrines. I think there's a world of difference between those who have "witnessed" the risen Christ versus those who have been taught doctrines concerning the risen Christ. The former can only "confess" what they have witnessed while the latter can only 'profess' what they've been taught.

While those who believe the good news without any way of verifying it, may be blessed, they are nonetheless not witnesses. They have not received Christ. Everyone in the bible believes what they have seen rather than hallucinating what they've been taught to believe.

I think where those who believe are blessed is in their obedience to God's law which reveals not only God's will, but the ability to understand why God wills that each law be kept. This not only reveals our inability to keep God's laws through our own will and effort, but reveals that they can only be kept in, with, and through the faith of Christ indwelling within the new creation.

God's commandments are a "learn by doing" methodology.

Seeing is believing.
Yet Jesus told the disciples blessed are those who do not see and yet believe.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Justification by Faith

Justification by Faith is in two senses, First and foremost Its Justification by the Faith / Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. For its by this Faith alone how The elect obtain Justification before God, by the Blood and obedience of Jesus Christ, for all whom He died in their place and stead.

Rom 5:9,18-19

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, that's a false Gospel, but by His blood; to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time. Thats who Justified by His blood.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men[of all time] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [of all time] unto justification of life.

19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again no mention of our Faith as a securing means of Justification unto Life or being made righteous, but solely the obedience and righteousness of One Jesus Christ.

This constitutes the Faith / faithfulness of Jesus Christ ; Therefore its written The Faith of Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16,20

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Faithfulness Jesus Christ Loved the elect and gave himself for them.

Then in a secondary sense and premised on the First and foremost, the elect sinner is Justified consciously, by the regenerating work of the Holy Ghost, because of their previous justification by the work of Christ, they now have that revealed to them by God the Holy Ghost through the Gospel. but be careful not to confuse the receiving experientially the status of Justification before God [by the work of Christ] with the experiential aspect of conscience Justification by the work of the Holy Ghost upon and in the already Justified before God sinner. 1 Cor 6:11

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now, though the work of the Holy Ghost is extremely Important and needed for the enjoyment of the work of Christ in the elects behalf, His blessed work should never be on the same level or above the Justifying work of the Son of God upon the cross. to do so leads to heresy and anti Christ teaching.

For it was not the Work of the Holy Ghost to die in the place of elect sinners for 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This scripture teaches Christ died for our [the elect] sins, but not a word about the Holy Ghost dying for the sins of the elect.

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.

Here, the iniquities of the elect were laid upon him [Jesus Christ] and not the Holy Ghost..

Rom 5: 9 declares Having been Justified [declared righteous] by the blood of Jesus Christ, but not a word about being Justified by the work of the Holy Ghost blood..

Finally Jesus states that the Holy Ghost will not speak of Himself [ draw attention to Himself] but should Glorify Him .Jn 16:13-14

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine [My accomplishment], and shall shew it unto you.

He shall receive of the finished accomplished Justification of Gods elect through Jesus Christ and on their behalf, and shew [ reveal] it to them..


To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is error. and will not go unchecked in the mind of the elect.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Justification by Faith

Justification by Faith is in two senses, First and foremost Its Justification by the Faith / Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. For its by this Faith alone how The elect obtain Justification before God, by the Blood and obedience of Jesus Christ, for all whom He died in their place and stead.

Rom 5:9,18-19

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, that's a false Gospel, but by His blood; to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time. Thats who Justified by His blood.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men[of all time] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [of all time] unto justification of life.

19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again no mention of our Faith as a securing means of Justification unto Life or being made righteous, but solely the obedience and righteousness of One Jesus Christ.

This constitutes the Faith / faithfulness of Jesus Christ ; Therefore its written The Faith of Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16,20

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Faithfulness Jesus Christ Loved the elect and gave himself for them.

Then in a secondary sense and premised on the First and foremost, the elect sinner is Justified consciously, by the regenerating work of the Holy Ghost, because of their previous justification by the work of Christ, they now have that revealed to them by God the Holy Ghost through the Gospel. but be careful not to confuse the receiving experientially the status of Justification before God [by the work of Christ] with the experiential aspect of conscience Justification by the work of the Holy Ghost upon and in the already Justified before God sinner. 1 Cor 6:11

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now, though the work of the Holy Ghost is extremely Important and needed for the enjoyment of the work of Christ in the elects behalf, His blessed work should never be on the same level or above the Justifying work of the Son of God upon the cross. to do so leads to heresy and anti Christ teaching.

For it was not the Work of the Holy Ghost to die in the place of elect sinners for 1 Cor 15:3

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This scripture teaches Christ died for our [the elect] sins, but not a word about the Holy Ghost dying for the sins of the elect.

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.

Here, the iniquities of the elect were laid upon him [Jesus Christ] and not the Holy Ghost..

Rom 5: 9 declares Having been Justified [declared righteous] by the blood of Jesus Christ, but not a word about being Justified by the work of the Holy Ghost blood..

Finally Jesus states that the Holy Ghost will not speak of Himself [ draw attention to Himself] but should Glorify Him .Jn 16:13-14

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine [My accomplishment], and shall shew it unto you.

He shall receive of the finished accomplished Justification of Gods elect through Jesus Christ and on their behalf, and shew [ reveal] it to them..


To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is error. and will not go unchecked in the mind of the elect.
Neither of which a man cannot have without faith

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:3-5 (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Neither of which a man cannot have without faith

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:3-5 (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is error.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is error.
Of course you ignored the actual point and opted for a false one

Neither of which a man cannot have without faith

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:3-5 (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Rom 5:1

Being Justified by Faith !

What does this mean ? For many deceivers are out in the world and have so misapplied this verse to make it say something that it really does not say or mean, and that is that one is saved or Justified before God because of their Faith, meaning their act of believing, that their act of believing is the causative reason of their Justification before God ! Let me say without hesitation that this teaching is error in that its against the True basis of Justification b4 God, and that namely is the Lord Jesus Christ .against His accomplishment on the cross Its the blood of Jesus Christ and the grace of God that Justifies sinners, and i will prove this from scriptures. Also keep in mind, that Faith is a noun not a verb as in something we do, but its a substance.

Rom 5:1

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Let me start off by saying, what Paul does not mean here, and that is, Paul is not teaching that one is Justified [before God] by or because of their act of Faith, since #1, Faith is a noun in this verse and if we use the verb believing, then we are saying that God Justified because of something I did, which was believe and Thats works.

And even more so, Paul cannot contradict his own teaching in other portions of Gods word as to the True source of Justification before God! First of all , Paul teaches that the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus Christ Rom 5:9a

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Paul clearly teaches that Justification is by the blood of Jesus Christ9
 
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guest1

Guest
Of course you ignored the actual point and opted for a false one

Neither of which a man cannot have without faith

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:3-5 (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
PTL Amen !
 
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