Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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TomFL

Guest
So Paul declares that the elect having been Justified by Christ blood, shall be delivered from the wrath to come..

2ndly, Paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Christ] Justification comes upon all men, that is, all men in Him at the time of His righteous act. observe Rom 5:18b

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This reads in exact contrast with the results of the one who made offence [ Adam] resulting in Gods condemnation and Judgment. For each of the heads brought about a Divine Judicial verdict on all those whom they represented. By the righteousness or righteous act of Jesus Christ, meaning His death, the free gift of Justification of life came upon [ not was offered or made available] but came upon all men [ in Christ at the time , his seed, as Adam had a seed in him] unto Justification of life..

The Justification unto life by the right act of one, called down the free Gift of Justification of life..

Thats why Paul wrote earlier in Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The redemption that is in Christ Jesus, again pointing to His redeeming blood and or death..


So we know Paul did not mean in Rom 5:1 that the elect are Justified by their act of believing or Faith, because it again contradicts Paul's overall teaching of this subject, and would make void the accomplishment of the redeeming death and blood of Jesus Christ. and that's what satan and his messengers desire to do, to take the crown from Jesus head, and place it upon the head of man..

So much error

First Have you become a universalist ?

or can prove all men really equals some ?

Second do you imagine Paul contradicts himself

Romans 4:1-11 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This clearly illustrates the fact you do not compare scripture with scripture and have no idea on how to correctly interpret scripture
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
or can prove all men really equals some ?

For the 47, 384th time, NOBODY is claiming "all" really means "some".

The issue is NOT with the meaning of "all".
The issue is with the meaning of "men".

But sadly, this poster will never weaken his grasp of this STRAW-MAN argument.

Second do you imagine Paul contradicts himself

This is nothing but worthless, insulting rhetoric.
NOBODY believes that "Paul is contradicting himself".
What we "imagine" is that YOU are not accurately understanding Paul's teachings.

This clearly illustrates the fact you do not compare scripture with scripture and have no idea on how to correctly interpret scripture

Nothing but worthless rhetoric.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So much error

First Have you become a universalist ?

or can prove all men really equals some ?

Second do you imagine Paul contradicts himself

Romans 4:1-11 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This clearly illustrates the fact you do not compare scripture with scripture and have no idea on how to correctly interpret scripture
Whats error ?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
For the 47, 384th time, NOBODY is claiming "all" really means "some".

Was anybody addresses you ?

do you imagine to speak for Brightflame52

What is this knee jerk propensity you have gf butting into conversations as though you were the spokesperson
for others

The issue is NOT with the meaning of "all".
The issue is with the meaning of "men".

Pray tell what is it you imagine is the problem with the meaning of men in this verse

Romans 5:18 (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

or have you not even correctly identified the verse under discussion
But sadly, this poster will never weaken his grasp of this STRAW-MAN argument.



This is nothing but worthless, insulting rhetoric.
NOBODY believes that "Paul is contradicting himself".
What we "imagine" is that YOU are not accurately understanding Paul's teachings.

Again you imagine you speak for others

Are you now identifying yourself (we) with the hyper Calvinist Brigfhtflame 52

or has your knee jerk propensity gotten the best of you again
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Was anybody addresses you ?

Nobody is required to address me.
Kindly lose the attitude.

I'm sorry that you are unaware that this is a PUBLIC discussion forum, and nobody needs an "invitation" to share their view.

Congratulations!
You've learned something today!

do you imagine to speak for Brightflame52

Do you imagine you will ever be able to post without being insulting to others?

What is this knee jerk propensity you have gf butting into conversations as though you were the spokesperson for others

I've actually IGNORED a great many of your worthless posts.
Get over yourself.

Pray tell what is it you imagine is the problem with the meaning of men in this verse

You are ASSUMING (without basis) that "men" allegedly means "individuals".
Stop ASSUMING that, and then maybe we can continue.

Romans 5:18 (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

or have you not even correctly identified the verse under discussion

The ENTIRETY of Rom. 5 is in the LIMITED context of those who "have been justified" (Rom. 5:1), and who have been GIVEN the Holy Spirit (v.5).

Your error here is (1) IGNORING the context at the beginning of the chapter, and 2) errantly ASSUMING that the mention of "all men" in v.18 allegedly "changes" the context (it doesn't), rather than simply referring to "all men" who are in the context of vv. 1-5.

Again you imagine you speak for others

I've never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.
You owe me an apology.

Are you now identifying yourself (we) with the hyper Calvinist Brigfhtflame 52

I've never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.
You owe me an apology.

or has your knee jerk propensity gotten the best of you again

Petty insult duly noted.
I truly hope that one day you will find Christ as the Saviour you desperately need.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Nobody is required to address me.
Kindly lose the attitude.

Nor is anyone required to respond for another

Lose your attitude

Do you imagine addressing Brightflame52 includes you ?
I'm sorry that you are unaware that this is a PUBLIC discussion forum, and nobody needs an "invitation" to share their view.

Congratulations!
You've learned something today!

There is no problem sharing your view . There is a problem if you imagine you speak for everyone

and there is a problem if you think what is addressed to another includes you

you are not the center of the universe and everything is not addressed to you

You are not Brightflame52
Do you imagine you will ever be able to post without being insulting to others?

LOL

Do you ?
I've actually IGNORED a great many of your worthless posts.
Get over yourself.

LOL

You haver been refuted over and over. And then claim harrassment when your errors and failures are demonstrated
You are ASSUMING (without basis) that "men" allegedly means "individuals".
Stop ASSUMING that, and then maybe we can continue.

No now you imagine you think you can speak for me

Will it never end ?

You would do better to speak for yourself.


The ENTIRETY of Rom. 5 is in the LIMITED context of those who "have been justified" (Rom. 5:1), and who have been GIVEN the Holy Spirit (v.5).

Your error here is (1) IGNORING the context at the beginning of the chapter, and 2) errantly ASSUMING that the mention of "all men" in v.18 allegedly "changes" the context (it doesn't), rather than simply referring to "all men" who are in the context of vv. 1-5.

Romans 5:12 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Except all here is greater that the limited group you wish to apply it to

Romans 5:18 (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

as here

I've never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.
You owe me an apology.

WE

Do you understand what the word we means

No one was addressing you

You identified with Brightflame52 and accused me of 'straw manning the group you termed we

I addressed one single person Brightflame52

That did not include you

How is it you think it did ?


Petty insult duly noted.
I truly hope that one day you will find Christ as the Saviour you desperately need.

You should be addressing yourself
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
So, so far in exposing the False teaching that the elect are saved or Justified because of their act of Faith or believing, We see that contradicts other clear teaching of Paul that #1, the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

That is when He bore their sins as prophesied Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [shed His blood]

# 2 we find that Paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Jesus Christ] Justification came upon all men, not offered, not made available, but Sovereignly came upon them .Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now show me in this verse where it says that Justification of life came upon all men because they had faith ?

# 3, Paul teaches in vs 19 of Romans 5:19 that by the obedience of one, many shall be made righteous ..

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now where does it say that by their faith shall many be made righteous ? Paul says by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous .Now who is that one ?
 

newheart78

Well-known member
So, so far in exposing the False teaching that the elect are saved or Justified because of their act of Faith or believing, We see that contradicts other clear teaching of Paul that #1, the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

That is when He bore their sins as prophesied Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [shed His blood]

# 2 we find that Paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Jesus Christ] Justification came upon all men, not offered, not made available, but Sovereignly came upon them .Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now show me in this verse where it says that Justification of life came upon all men because they had faith ?

# 3, Paul teaches in vs 19 of Romans 5:19 that by the obedience of one, many shall be made righteous ..

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now where does it say that by their faith shall many be made righteous ? Paul says by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous .Now who is that one ?
That One is the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, the Lord Jesus Christ !
 
T

TomFL

Guest
So, so far in exposing the False teaching that the elect are saved or Justified because of their act of Faith or believing, We see that contradicts other clear teaching of Paul that #1, the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

That is when He bore their sins as prophesied Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [shed His blood]

# 2 we find that Paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Jesus Christ] Justification came upon all men, not offered, not made available, but Sovereignly came upon them .Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now show me in this verse where it says that Justification of life came upon all men because they had faith ?

# 3, Paul teaches in vs 19 of Romans 5:19 that by the obedience of one, many shall be made righteous ..

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now where does it say that by their faith shall many be made righteous ? Paul says by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous .Now who is that one ?
What is it about the word now you do not understand

Romans 5:9-11 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
What is it about the word now you do not understand

Romans 5:9-11 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Did you understand that post you quoted ?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Did you understand that post you quoted ?
Don't avoid the issue

What is it about the word now you do not understand

Romans 5:9-11 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Paul then goes on to write that the elect are Justified by Grace Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And this is freely, without cause of us, Just being of the election of grace. Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption [blood] that is in Christ Jesus:

The word freely here is the greek word:

dōrean: which means:


freely, undeservedly and is translated without a cause as here:[unconditionally]

Jn 15:25

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


Redemption is through His blood, of which His Grace operates towards the elect..

Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

In light of these scriptures, we continue to expose the false teaching of mere religionist who would take the crown from Jesus head and place it upon their own.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Don't avoid the issue

What is it about the word now you do not understand

Romans 5:9-11 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
In post 50 which you quoted, I remarked on Rom 5:18, did you consider what was stated ?
 
T

TomFL

Guest
In post 50 which you quoted, I remarked on Rom 5:18, did you consider what was stated ?
Why do you continue to run

What is it about the word now you do not understand

Romans 5:9-11 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Why do you continue to run

What is it about the word now you do not understand

Romans 5:9-11 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Running is his game of hide and seek he plays and cannot answer anyone's questions. He and shadow are expert dodgeball players.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Why do you continue to run

What is it about the word now you do not understand

Romans 5:9-11 (KJV)
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Did you understand it ?
 
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