That is the truth.
Who makes intercession ...
- Thread starter PeanutGallery
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That is the truth.
A new day
Super Member
The principle is that human beings need to respect the limitation God has set, and not try to draw upon other ways and means to get what we humans want. God set the boundaries between humanity and the spirit world.
Rather than seeking to get results or answers by calling on other things, people or powers. God wants us to live in fellowship with Him, and totally rely only on Him, accepting that what He has for us and is that HE is all we will ever need.
There is NO Scripture in the OT or NT that tells us to talk to or pray to saints and other dead people. There is NO biblical support for seeking answers from the dead.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Is is possible----that when Mary prays for us, it is the Spirit who is making intercession in the prayers of Mary--and for that matter all of the saints?
When you pray for those who request your prayers, it is the same Spirit making intercession through your prayers. The same applies to the saints in heaven.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Scripture says nothing about possibilities; it says pray to God, makes no mention of anyone else in heaven:
Matt 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
But Scripture does tell us to pray for each other.
Thus, it is difficult to understand, given this, why the saints cannot pray for us too.
A new day
Super Member
God set the boundaries between humanity and the spirit world. God in speaking in Scripture as a whole, wants us to live in fellowship with Him, and totally rely only on Him, accepting that what He has for us and is that HE is all we will ever need.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Why are we instructed to pray for each other?
There is no "elite" group of Christians called "saints." All Christian believers are saints. Besides, there is no evidence that our departed brothers and sisters hear our prayers.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Scripture tells us to pray to our Father in heaven; it makes no mention of possibility and understanding.
yes, it tells those of us alive and living in this world that. Jesus and the apostles taught those alive on earth, not those who were in heaven.
those alive on earth can. I wouldn't ask someone who isn't one of His saints to pray for me or a loved one.
Stella1000
Well-known member
Human beings have been teaching and leading under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost. God gave us charisms for the building up of the Church and you can see that throughout the history of the Church. God made us a community of faith and the early Fathers have always included the community of heaven in that community so we can be comfortable and grateful for their holy prophecies. A few examples...
Hermas - “[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandra - “In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen - “But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
We have a living relationship with the community in heaven with Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
This is referring to those on this plane praying for one another, not the dead praying for us.
The are still fallible men and you have proved nothing at all. I noticed these quotes are taken out of context. I mean the Origen quote has a load left out of it, the ellipsis were used.
A new day
Super Member
I don't give a squawk about what hermas, clement, or origen said.....
The gospel message demands that all give up worldly philosophies and worldly religious views. We can not hang on to any of it. We can see in what is quoted of these writers that they did not give up their past lives. But found ways in which to make those ideas and philosophies more palatable to the church. This delighted pagans, because it meant that they didn't have to give up their appetites for worshiping "many" gods.
And such teachings already agreed with their wrong ideas, and shallow philosophies. The Holy Spirit is NOT going to inspire us to go against what God has declared wrong. Like it or not, those who teach such, are not hearing from God, but from demon's. True messengers always point people into the direct of the gospel as spoken of in Scripture the and sole worship of Christ who is God. They never direct people to worship mary, saints, angels, or other dead people.
RayneBeau
Well-known member
Most Roman Catholics regard their church's religion as nothing more than an occasional 'feeling'. They can't even communicate the gospel clearly.
Bonnie
Super Member
Yes, praying FOR each other, not TO each other. There is a big difference between the two.
Bonnie
Super Member
Why base a practice on a "possibility" rather than on what Scripture actually shows us--praying directly to God? Jesus' tore down the barrier between us and God, with His death on the cross. Why do Catholics want to put up another barrier between us and God when Jesus suffered, bled, and died to remove it?
To me it shows a lack of trust in God, why go to another when we can go direct. Why put up a person in between you and God when you can go to him directly.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Once again, the Protestant simply cannot understand nuance, nor distinctions.
Jesus broke down the barrier between man and God the Father. We approach the throne of the Father in and through Jesus. But we can ALL approach the throne of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit and make intercession for our own needs as well as others. The Body of Christ is a team. There is no I in team. When God sees the prayers of the members of the Body of Christ, God sees Christ and is pleased.
My question, then, was rhetorical. It was meant as an attempt to get you to think and open your mind for a change. I see it was a wasted effort. You simply cannot or will not think outside your narrow Lutheran categories. Protestants are so darn one dimensional.
"Why do Catholics want to put up another barrier...." Why do you see Mary and the saints as a barrier to Christ, rather than fellow team mates who care for us, love us in Christ, and pray for us? Why does everything for you zero sum?
See this is the whole point: for Catholics, Mary and the saints are not barriers to Christ. Yet for some unexplained reason--they are to you. And that is fine. As I said--if you do not want to pray to Mary and the saints, don't.
Stella1000
Well-known member
The practice is not based on 'possibility' but prophecy. Our Lady appeared to St Dominic in the 12th century and later Blessed Alan de la Roche in the 15th century making promises regarding the powerful intercession of the Rosary. Again, the little prophets the Fatima children and Bernadette of Lourdes give us further assurance of Mary's intercessory role. Do Christians outside the Church still even accept prophecy? Has it gone the way of other supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit, that is, just myths or theories with no real world substance anymore?