Who or What is the Trinity ?

Lilel01

Well-known member
God does not have a right hand. God is an invisible Spirit which no man has seen nor can see. The 'right hand of God' is a metaphor for the place of heavenly power and authority. Stephen didn't see God with Jesus standing at his right hand when he looked up to heaven.What he saw was Jesus in the position power and authority in heaven.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me NRSV
I don't see how this post changes anything of what was said in the post you quoted.

Jesus is in a position of authority BECAUSE GOD placed him there.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
I got a rather bad report about my Congestive Heart Failure issues, some weeks ago, which may well mean that my remaining time is likely a bit shorter that I had thought it was (of course at 80, I'm most of the way toward the end anyway), so I don't have a lot of patience for "Theological Abstracts" and useless "Systematics".
Sorry to hear about your heart problem.
Defining the "New Normal" of ever increasing physical limitations, and getting everybody (and everything) prepared for the inevitable, is more of a REAL priority.
The believer's priority is to remain abiding in Christ...
Obviously I'm one of the "Elect" - since I was convicted of my SIN, and after several iterations, Surrendered, repented, and became Born-Again and indwelled by the Holy Spirit by Faith - so I'm good to go.
These are things to be maintained continually.
Luke 22
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
That was 59 years ago, and I've been picking my way through the "Theological jungle" ever since.
59 years ago does not matter, it is today that matters... One needs oil in their lamp when the master arrives not 59 y
God says plainly that We don't have any REAL concept of His entirety, and HIS WAYS, are not OUR ways.
That does not mean one cannot know God...
I don't have any problem with that, and see no reason to try defining the undefinable, since on the other side of the grass, all I'll have to do is ASK (and may not even have to anyway).
The problem is you have already defined God as a trinity... yet you are claiming you see no reason to try defining the undefinable,
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
These are things to be maintained continually.
True - "Biblical FAITH" is the result of living Relationship with God.
That does not mean one cannot know God...
At a certain level, of course, since a relationship with HIM is possible AND required. but in a "Scientific totality" (like the actual details of the trinity) - ain't gonna happen. And doesn't have to.
The problem is you have already defined God as a trinity... yet you are claiming you see no reason to try defining the undefinable,
SO no "problem" at all - Jesus presents "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit", and they show up at John's baptism also - thus establishing their conceptual existence. However attempting to "Define their Scientific totality" would be a waste of time.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
True - "Biblical FAITH" is the result of living Relationship with God.
The scripture says faith comes by hearing the word of God...
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Please post a passage saying, True - "Biblical FAITH" is the result of living Relationship with God
At a certain level, of course, since a relationship with HIM is possible AND required. but in a "Scientific totality" (like the actual details of the trinity) - ain't gonna happen. And doesn't have to.
What rubbish are you spewing? The question requires a simple yes or no answer. it is either we can know God or we cannot know God.
SO no "problem" at all - Jesus presents "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirit", and they show up at John's baptism also - thus establishing their conceptual existence.
Yes, problem, you claim Jesus is God Father is God and HS is God...did three Gods show up?
However attempting to "Define their Scientific totality" would be a waste of time.
Of course, it is... "their Scientific totality" is your made up doctrine. Jesus Has a God who is also his father...
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Please explain how your God has a father and a God
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
The scripture says faith comes by hearing the word of God...
And HEARING God's word to you is the result of a relationship with Him.
The question requires a simple yes or no answer. it is either we can know God or we cannot know God.
WE Know God at one level, and know nothing about His totality.
Yes, problem, you claim Jesus is God Father is God and HS is God...did three Gods show up?
No problem - God is ONE - Father Son and Holy Spirit - whatever that means.
Please explain how your God has a father and a God.
So - repeating myself: "At a certain level, of course, since a relationship with HIM is possible AND required. but in a "Scientific totality" (like the actual details of the trinity) - ain't gonna happen. And doesn't have to."

Next question???
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
And HEARING God's word to you is the result of a relationship with Him.
No, hearing God's word is from preaching...
WE Know God at one level, and know nothing about His totality.
Then we know God totally at one level...
No problem - God is ONE - Father Son and Holy Spirit - whatever that means.
Again you are conflating things...Father Son and HS are three hence the trinity...
So - repeating myself: "At a certain level, of course, since a relationship with HIM is possible AND required. but in a "Scientific totality" (like the actual details of the trinity) - ain't gonna happen. And doesn't have to."

Next question???
repeating the same nonsense does not change the nonsense...If you don't know God then the son of god did not reveal God to you///
Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
God is a Trinity of persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God.

Jesus, the Son, is one person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. The Holy Spirit is also divine in nature and is self-aware, the third person of the Trinity.

The word "person" is used to describe the three "Persons" of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self-aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. The three Persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.

What is so hard to understand about God being Triune? The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. God is a Trinity (Tri-Unity) of 3 Persons who are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is not three gods nor is the Trinity three beings. We call them "Persons" because each one of Them have a will, speak, teach, love, receive praise, prayer, share the same Glory, etc. These are all characteristics of person-hood. They are of one substance, nature, essence or Being. You cannot have the Father without the Son, the Son without the Father, The Son without the Holy Spirit or you would not have the God according to Scripture, you would have a false god or what is known as an idol.

hope this helps,
After reading the responses, it is concluded that Jesus is LORD!

Thanks...
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
After reading the responses, it is concluded that Jesus is LORD!

Thanks...
And the Trinity is a false God....This is where the trinity doctrine comes from. Taken directly from the Catholic Church and not from the scripture...

Athanasian Creed​


1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
And the Trinity is a false God....This is where the trinity doctrine comes from. Taken directly from the Catholic Church and not from the scripture...

Athanasian Creed


1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
G.I.G.O
 

Anthony

Active member
The Godhead shouldn't be complicated.

There are three that bear witness in heaven - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one. That's all I need to know.
.
Putting human terminology to the Godhead is something not advisable. A lot will get confused. Even the trinity is not a perfect description of the Godhead.
The titles especially The Father and The Son have to do purely with God's covenant with Israel.

The Replacement Theology is how Christianity became the religion which simply is unscriptural. To be a Christian has nothing to do with established religion of Christianity.

The prophetic clock has always been around Israel both in OT and NT. The Messiah/Christ Whom we call upon was a Jew through His genealogy. He didn't come to establish a new religion but came to seek the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

It's obvious, Israel has been the heir to the promises of God as being His 'firstborn son' - Exod 4:22. The problem with historical Israel was that they were in 'flesh' who couldn't cope with the Torah. That's why Yeshua Messiah came not only to represent Israel as The Firstborn Son but also Mediate for their inconsistency. It's Israel which is being transitioned from Old Covenant after 'flesh' to The New Covenant 'spiritual sonship' with many falling and rising again.

Luk 2:34 and Simeon blessed them, and said to Miriam, his mother, “Behold, this child is set for the falling and the rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which is spoken against.

Now see what Apostle Paul says of Israel as a Child being the heir:

Gal 4:
1 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a bondservant, though he is lord of all,

2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed by the father.

3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental principles of the world.

4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law,

5 that he might redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as children.


Moreover:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Paul further says that we as Christians (wild olive branches) are grafted among the believing natural olive branches. They aren't grafted among us rather we among them. Therefore, replacement theology is unscriptural and Christianity unfounded.

The titles of The Father and The Son dipict covenant relationship between God and Israel. The only begotten Son (The only Spiritual Son) came to be the true Israel of God.

The Deity of The Son can't be apart from The Father. If God is The Father, The Son is the true Israel, the Firstborn Son.
If The Son is God then He is The Ordinal Last ( Father being The Ordinal First) - The Alpha and The Omega which God is.

There ain't 3 Persons in Godhead. This theology has come on the basis of Replacement Theology (Church replacing Israel).

All writers of NT were Jewish in nature and they never had any clue of a Replacement Theology.

John 1:1 begins with The WORD being with God. God here is being inferred to being transcendent - invisible, unapproachable. The substantial WORD is His Messenger. Besides why would God need The WORD to be sent forth from His own substance to be means of creation, redemption and glory? He is transcendent. That's how The WORD was God in created realm?

We have several examples in OT of The Angel/Messenger of YHWH being YHWH Himself.
YHWH being revealed in OT from multi-dimensional perspective. YHWH and The Messenger of YHWH (Messenger of the covenant) are not two Persons of Godhead but the same God in two dimensions - duality of powers. Messenger of YHWH is the face of Transcendent God Who has no form or voice.

It's quite obvious, the Speaker in both YHWH as The Father in OT and YHWH as The Son in NT is One - The WORD mentioned by John in 1:1.

No one has ever seen God at any time - refers to Transcendent God. We have His face/form in heaven permanently.

Phil 2:
5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Messiah Yeshua,

6 who, existing in the form of God
, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
The Deity of The Son can't be apart from The Father. If God is The Father, The Son is the true Israel, the Firstborn Son.
If The Son is God then He is The Ordinal Last ( Father being The Ordinal First) - The Alpha and The Omega which God is.
Complete nonsense and not in the scripture. Jesus is not God, neither was he made a God.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
The Godhead shouldn't be complicated.
But you just made it complicated...
There are three that bear witness in heaven - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one. That's all I need to know.
You said there are three, then you said these three are one. One what? You have to explain what are the three and what is the one. Three marbles cannot be one marble. Three Gods cannot be one God. Three persons cannot be one God, just as three apples cannot be one pear.
Putting human terminology to the Godhead is something not advisable.
The terminology (Trinity) was put there by your leaders, not the apostles. So now you are advising your leaders?
A lot will get confused.
The masses have already been confused.
Even the trinity is not a perfect description of the Godhead.
But it was put there by your leaders, was it not? If you actually followed the apostles without adding to the scripture, there would be no mention of a trinity.
 

Jewjitzu

Well-known member
Complete nonsense and not in the scripture. Jesus is not God, neither was he made a God.
I agree with you. Ironically, by saying the Father is first, that automatically discounts Jesus from being the God since Isaiah 43:10 says there are no gods before or after me.

Jesus would be contradict by the Father being before him, and then after the Father.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
I agree with you. Ironically, by saying the Father is first, that automatically discounts Jesus from being the God since Isaiah 43:10 says there are no gods before or after me.

Jesus would be contradict by the Father being before him, and then after the Father.
True and it also discounts Jesus from being God because to us there is only one God, the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
 

Fred

Well-known member
True and it also discounts Jesus from being God because to us there is only one God, the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

When "Lord" is used in reference to Jesus in 1 Corinthians 8:6 it means He is YHWH.
 

Newbirth

Well-known member
When "Lord" is used in reference to Jesus in 1 Corinthians 8:6 it means He is YHWH.
No, it does not. Read the passage carefully... Believers have one God, the Father... Jesus is not the Father therefore Jesus is not God, and not YHWH. I have already shown you that Jesus has a God.
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Are you going to start your circular reasoning again?
 

Fred

Well-known member
No, it does not. Read the passage carefully...
I read the passage carefully and I also pointed out the same Greek words used in reference to Christ in 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 10.
You ignored this evidence because it refutes your heresy.
 
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