Who's Decision?

[treeplanter]

No, Adam imposed the problem. Adam was our federal head.


That's not quite the way the bible puts it. It's how you put it.

There is nothing better to know.

No, Crow - Adam did NOT impose the problem!

God decided that Adam shall function as federal head
God decided that the actions of the federal head shall affect every single human being to follow
And God decided what that consequence upon every human being shall be

God screwed us over, plain and simple

 

[treeplanter]

You never know what He's going to do.

Perhaps God is running you through this God is bad nonsense so you'll better know how to deal with the atheist mind.

Again, God needn't harm us in order to help us, Crow!

Human beings, oftentimes, have no other choice except to cause harm in the pursuit of a greater good, but God never, ever, need harm us because He can achieve His every end WITHOUT causing harm!!


When God harms us it is, by definition, needless - and to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm is immoral

 

[CrowCross]

No, Crow - Adam did NOT impose the problem!

God decided that Adam shall function as federal head
God decided that the actions of the federal head shall affect every single human being to follow
And God decided what that consequence upon every human being shall be

God screwed us over, plain and simple

.....and Adam choose to disobey.

God also decided to create man from the dust and didn't give him gills. If you jumped into a lake and drowned would it be Gods fault because He didn't create you with gills?

For every one that has drowned...God screwed them over, plain and simple. Right?

 

[CrowCross]

Again, God needn't harm us in order to help us, Crow!

Human beings, oftentimes, have no other choice except to cause harm in the pursuit of a greater good, but God never, ever, need harm us because He can achieve His every end WITHOUT causing harm!!


When God harms us it is, by definition, needless - and to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm is immoral

So, because you have that strange opinion...you feel it's your duty to harm God back?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

A school teacher has designated a 'movie day' for her class

A single, disruptive student acts up inappropriately and the teacher reacts by saying to the entire class:
"That's it - movie day is cancelled. Take out your pencils for a pop quiz!"

Is it the student who has decided to punish the rest of the class for his own bad behavior
OR
is it the teacher who has decided to punish the rest of the class for the bad behavior of the one student?


*Certainly, the disruptive student is at fault and deserves blame for his ill conceived actions
The question, however, isn't to do with that...

The question is this:
Who's DECISION was it to punish the entire class with a pop quiz in place of a movie?


PS
I'm particularly interested in the opinions of Christians

Obviously the teacher made the decision. there is no alternative.
Next question? We going to Romans 9???

 

[treeplanter]

Obviously the teacher made the decision. there is no alternative.
Next question? We going to Romans 9???

As always, Bob - you pull no punches!

Unlike the vast majority of your CARM compatriots, you don't pretend that God is anything more or anything less than He, Himself, tells us that He is

God callously chose to unfairly punish all of mankind for the actions of one man and you are not afraid to say so!


I think you're crazy for devoting yourself to a monster, but I respect you for your honesty!!

 

[treeplanter]

.....and Adam choose to disobey.

God also decided to create man from the dust and didn't give him gills. If you jumped into a lake and drowned would it be Gods fault because He didn't create you with gills?

For every one that has drowned...God screwed them over, plain and simple. Right?

Yes, Crow - Adam chose to disobey God
However, Adam did NOT choose that the consequence of his disobedience shall be a fallen world

It was God who chose this!


No, Crow - it would not be God's fault if I, lacking gills, jumped into a lake and drowned

What WOULD be God's fault is if He consciously and purposefully created me without gills and then destined me, from birth, to jump into a lake

This, in effect, is what God has done to mankind

 

[treeplanter]

So, because you have that strange opinion...you feel it's your duty to harm God back?

Strange opinion?

What strange opinion?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

As always, Bob - you pull no punches!

Unlike the vast majority of your CARM compatriots, you don't pretend that God is anything more or anything less than He, Himself, tells us that He is

God callously chose to unfairly punish all of mankind for the actions of one man and you are not afraid to say so!

Although God doesn't punish ME (or anybody else) for what Adam did. He WOULD HAVE punished me for what I did of my own free will - except that I judged myself (under conviction of SIN) and accepted by Faith (that I couldn't even produce - it was HIS GIFT to me) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross. As the Bible says, everybody is punished FOR THEIR OWN SIN.

I think you're crazy for devoting yourself to a monster, but I respect you for your honesty!!

Well HEY!!! it'a been a good life for the last 58 years, and unless I'm wrong, it'll be better when this 'ol body quits working, and I can go home -

 

[Furion]

No, Jimmy - a rejection of a morality that incorporates the conscious and purposeful infliction of needless harm is {or at least, should be} common sense.

Now Timmy, you know your thinking is eccentric and rare.

Not too many bitch all day long about God and those who love Him, like you.

But you can embrace the darkness, no one is stopping you and that is rather apparent.

Christ was lifted up, billions are drawn to Him, and you are powerless to stop it.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, Crow - Adam chose to disobey God
However, Adam did NOT choose that the consequence of his disobedience shall be a fallen world

It was God who chose this!

It's kinda the way it is...I already tried to explain to you darkness can't exist where there is light.

That seems to be some sort of spiritual law. Now all you can do is argue that God made the spiritual laws...and we can go on and on.

Adam knew of the consequences. It doesn't matter if God created the laws...Adam knew and broke them. Adam, like you is guilty.

No, Crow - it would not be God's fault if I, lacking gills, jumped into a lake and drowned

What WOULD be God's fault is if He consciously and purposefully created me without gills and then destined me, from birth, to jump into a lake

Your assuming the fish was created destined to jump into the lake. Your argument always starts with an assumption presented as fact.

This, in effect, is what God has done to mankind

If you stand to long in the sun you'll get sunburned. God is then bad for making the sun....right?

 

[CrowCross]

Strange opinion?

What strange opinion?

Go re-read your post.

Your arguments have been shown to have been strange and shallow...without merit.

It's strange to say God is at fault for Adams bad decision....simply because God is in charge and set up the repercussions.

 

[SteveB]

Read for comprehension, Steve!

Didn't I just finish telling you that I don't know what perfect goodness and perfect justice are?
Yeah, I did - that's exactly what I said
Why would you ask me to explain something after I agree with you that I don't know how?
Do you ever read before you respond?

I did, though, go on to say that one thing I do know is that perfect goodness and perfect justice must incorporate the concept of fairness

They are your definitions.
You provide nothing that shows what perfect goodness and justice are

Doesn't this go without saying, Steve?

I would have thought so, but your posts show otherwise.

Isn't it a given that perfect goodness and perfect justice incorporate fairness?

I would have thought so but your posts show otherwise.

What a strange person you are that this shouldn't be automatically evident to you!

You can indeed continue to rant. It doesn't demonstrate that you actually know what perfect goodness and justice are.

But, then again, you don't think for yourself so it's perhaps not so strange after all...

I think that your problem is that you don't like it when people actually think for themselves and it's different than you want others to think.
Where I come from we call people with your attitudes towards God tyrant, dictators and despotic.

That said, I'll provide you with the proof that you ask for

Leviticus 19:15
"Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly"

What is justice?
You show great partiality towards the wicked and unjust.

You condemn the righteous and just and justify the wicked and unjust.

Good enough for you, Steve?
Is the word of God sufficient?

Try reading it again Tree.

It says to judge fairly.
It says

Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great

Yet you do exactly that.
You show favoritism to the ungodly and wicked.

Should be - since you changed your mind to agree with all that He says matters...

Indeed, he states

Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great

I'm not the one who is showing favoritism to the wicked and unjust.

Assuming that it is and assuming that you are now on board with the concept of fairness being essential to perfect goodness and perfect justice - care to explain how God is perfectly good and perfectly just when He chooses, like an imperfect school teacher and/or military officer, to punish an entire class/squadron for the unfortunate actions of just one student/soldier?

I'm still waiting for you to provide a source for what perfect goodness and justice are.

Especially when you have repeatedly sought to justify the wicked and unjust.

 

[SteveB]

Steve, I regard God as an immoral monster

Bingo.

Given this, what could possibly make you think that I care about His definition of justice?

You've just demonstrated that you have no idea what justice is nor perfect goodness is.

So, your argument about perfect goodness and justice isn't actually perfect goodness. It's Treeplanter's idea of goodness, which is antithetical to YHVH's goodness.
Your idea of justice isn't true justice. It's Treeplanter's idea of justice, which is in fact justifying the wicked and unjust, while condemning the righteous and just.

I care only about the real world, real life human definition of justice

Bingo.
As long as it agrees with Treeplanter's ideas.

Do you have a basis for what you call "real world"?

Eg, a legal code of conduct?
For example, the United States Code

govinfo

Official Publications from the U.S. Government Publishing Office.

www.govinfo.gov

How about the EU CODE?

EU law | European Union

Introduction to EU politics: decision-making procedures and the balance of power between the institutions

europa.eu

Or, how about the Chinese Code?

Civil Code of the People's Republic of China

The first Chinese law to carry the title "code" since the founding of the People's Republic of China in 1949, the Civil Code is expected to comprehensively strengthen the protection of people's various rights and improve the Chinese socialist system of laws. It will take effect on Jan 1, 2021.

english.www.gov.cn

Perhaps the North Korean code?

Korean Criminal Code | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

There are 195 countries on earth.
Which means that there's a lot of different laws that define what is perfectly good and just.

For example, if you're an atheist in Iran, you're under the death penalty.
If however you're an atheist in China, and north Korea, you're treated as a hero.
If you're a Christian in China, they'll throw you into prison.
In north Korea, you'll be taken out back and shot.

So, by claiming "real world" you have to incorporate the laws of all 195 countries.
Considering that the us code is over 100,000 pages, probably closer to a million or more, I'd say that you're full of mushroom food and have become so bloated that it's coming out from every orifice and then some.

And the human conceptualization of what is just incorporates the idea of fairness

Tell that to political prisoners in other countries.

There is nothing JUST about a teacher punishing an entire class for the misbehavior of a single student

You're the one who rejected the judgment of YHVH and said you use real world ideas.

I provided you with links to 4 major political entities on earth. Two of them are despotic governments.

Nor is there anything JUST about a God punishing all of mankind for the so-called 'misbehavior' of the 1st man

You rejected YHVH's judgment and have chosen man's ideas.
Therefore there are 195 countries on earth, so you're going to have to work through all of their laws, and build a comprehensive compendium of the laws of humanity to develop a genuinely fair and just collection.

Failure to do so demonstrates that you actually are full of mushroom food.

If you want to share what you think God's definition of justice is then I'll be happy to comment

Rom 3:26 WEB to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.

 

[treeplanter]

It's kinda the way it is...

Per the will of God

That seems to be some sort of spiritual law.

Per the will of God

Adam knew of the consequences.

Doesn't matter if he did or didn't
All that matters is that God, alone, chose to punish the entire human race to come for the actions of one man

If you stand to long in the sun you'll get sunburned. God is then bad for making the sun....right?

No, Crow - God is not bad for making the sun and He is not at fault if I spend too much time in the sun and get burned

God would be at fault, though, if He created us incapable of avoiding too much time in the sun


The reason that God is bad is because He created us with corrupted natures that render us incapable of living sinless lives

 

[treeplanter]

Go re-read your post.

Your arguments have been shown to have been strange and shallow...without merit.

It's strange to say God is at fault for Adams bad decision....simply because God is in charge and set up the repercussions.

Go re-read my posts

I never said that God is at fault for Adam's bad decision, Crow

What I am saying is that God is at fault for setting up the evil repercussion of punishing everyone for the actions of a single individual

 

[treeplanter]

They are your definitions.
You provide nothing that shows what perfect goodness and justice are

I never offered a definition of perfect goodness
I never offered a definition of perfect justice

The only thing that I have claimed is that perfect goodness and perfect justice must incorporate the concept of fairness

I think that your problem is that you don't like it when people actually think for themselves and it's different than you want others to think.

I would be thrilled if you thought for yourself, Steve!

Only problem is that you don't think for yourself
You decided a long, long time ago to change your mind to agree with God's word on all things that He says matters, remember?

You show great partiality towards the wicked and unjust.

When?
Where?

You condemn the righteous and just and justify the wicked and unjust.

Where?
When?

You show favoritism to the ungodly and wicked.

How so?

I'm still waiting for you to provide a source for what perfect goodness and justice are.

Learn to read for comprehension, Steve!

I NEVER claimed to know what perfect goodness and perfect justice are
My only claim is that both must incorporate the concept of fairness

Especially when you have repeatedly sought to justify the wicked and unjust.

Lie!

 

[SteveB]

I never offered a definition of perfect goodness
I never offered a definition of perfect justice

The only thing that I have claimed is that perfect goodness and perfect justice must incorporate the concept of fairness


I would be thrilled if you thought for yourself, Steve!

Only problem is that you don't think for yourself
You decided a long, long time ago to change your mind to agree with God's word on all things that He says matters, remember?


When?
Where?


Where?
When?


How so?


Learn to read for comprehension, Steve!

I NEVER claimed to know what perfect goodness and perfect justice are
My only claim is that both must incorporate the concept of fairness


Lie!

In other words, Treeplanter has absolutely no idea what perfect goodness and justice are.

He's just ranting, and maliciously and falsely accusing YHVH.

Wow.....

Ok....

Thank you for your hatred, malice and vitriol.

 

[treeplanter]

In other words, Treeplanter has absolutely no idea what perfect goodness and justice are.

He's just ranting, and maliciously and falsely accusing YHVH.

Wow.....

Ok....

Thank you for your hatred, malice and vitriol.

How can I, an imperfect human being, know perfect goodness and perfect justice?

One thing I do know, however, is that I possess a far greater sense of perfect goodness and perfect justice than do you!
At least I understand that perfect goodness and perfect justice cannot exist apart from the concept of fairness


Now, defend the malicious accusations you have made against me!

Where and when did I make a stand on behalf of wickedness and injustice?
When and where have I ever condemned the righteous and the just?

 

[SteveB]

How can I, an imperfect human being, know perfect goodness and perfect justice?

It's your rant.
I'm simply pointing out the obvious, which you now confess to.

One thing I do know, however, is that I possess a far greater sense of perfect goodness and perfect justice than do you!
At least I understand that perfect goodness and perfect justice cannot exist apart from the concept of fairness

And here we go again..... lying to protect yourself.
At least it's now so glaringly obvious that you are easily dismissed.

Now, defend the malicious accusations you have made against me!

Nothing malicious about them. I simply stated fact.
So, if Truth is malicious and an accusation to you, then you have a far more profound problem you need dire help for.

Where and when did I make a stand on behalf of wickedness and injustice?
When and where have I ever condemned the righteous and the just?

In justifying the wicked and ungodly.