Who's Decision?

[treeplanter]

It's your rant.
I'm simply pointing out the obvious, which you now confess to.

This is not an answer, Steve!

I will ask again:
How can I, an imperfect human being, know perfect goodness and perfect justice?

And here we go again..... lying to protect yourself.
At least it's now so glaringly obvious that you are easily dismissed.

What is the lie?
That perfect goodness and perfect justice cannot exist apart from the concept of fairness?

Nothing malicious about them. I simply stated fact.
So, if Truth is malicious and an accusation to you, then you have a far more profound problem you need dire help for.

I asked you to tell me where and when I defended wickedness and injustice
I asked you to tell me when and where I condemned the righteous and the just

I'm still waiting, Steve!

 

[Eightcrackers]

The more direct question would be

if a teacher set up a system that said "one student acts up, all are punished", would you consider that fair?

A consistent Christian must say "yes".
Which is why no Christian in here would answer it.

 

[CrowCross]

The reason that God is bad is because He created us with corrupted natures that render us incapable of living sinless lives

No He didn't. Mankind fell into corruption.

 

[Tercon]

The more direct question would be

if a teacher set up a system that said "one student acts up, all are punished", would you consider that fair?

A consistent Christian must say "yes".
Which is why no Christian in here would answer it.

No. That's Marxist nonsense and not Christianity.

 

[Eightcrackers]

No. That's Marxist nonsense and not Christianity.

And yet all humans are punished for Adam (and Eve's) acting up, because your "Teacher" set up the system that way.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

And yet all humans are punished for Adam (and Eve's) acting up, because your "Teacher" set up the system that way.

Give scripture to support your belief that all humans are PUNISHED for Adam's sin. I certainly don't feel punished by life.

 

[Whateverman]

A consistent Christian must say "yes".

aka. no one here

 

[treeplanter]

No He didn't. Mankind fell into corruption.

Mankind didn't fall into corruption, Crow

Mankind was pushed into corruption by God!

 

[CrowCross]

Mankind didn't fall into corruption, Crow

Mankind was pushed into corruption by God!

My bible doesn't say that.

Now there was some Satanic deception...something you're part of.

 

[Eightcrackers]

My bible doesn't say that.

Yahweh's propaganda doesn't depict the Tree of Knowledge as entrapment on his part?
That's hardly a surprise.

Now there was some Satanic deception...something you're part of.

The idea that the serpent was Satan is tenuous, at best - a reference to Satan being "the ancient serpent" supports it, but "serpent" was a common insult at the time (being applied to the Pharisees in Matt 23:33, for example).

 

[CrowCross]

Yahweh's propaganda doesn't depict the Tree of Knowledge as entrapment on his part?
That's hardly a surprise.

The idea that the serpent was Satan is tenuous, at best - a reference to Satan being "the ancient serpent" supports it, but "serpent" was a common insult at the time (being applied to the Pharisees in Matt 23:33, for example).

really?

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

 

[Eightcrackers]

really?

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

And? What about this, besides the already-covered "serpent" insult, locks him to being the serpent of the Garden?

 

[CrowCross]

And? What about this, besides the already-covered "serpent" insult, locks him to being the serpent of the Garden?

Am I insulting your serpent god?

 

[SteveB]

This is not an answer, Steve!

I'd say that you're gravely mistaken. Perhaps even lack the necessary tools to understand.

It'd be more honest for you to say that you didn't like the answer, and disagree with it.

I will ask again:
How can I, an imperfect human being, know perfect goodness and perfect justice?

You're the one who keeps pushing that you have a clue what perfect goodness and justice are.
Now you've admitted that you don't actually know what they are, you just think they'd include your ideas.

I'd say that makes you a fraud.

What is the lie?
That perfect goodness and perfect justice cannot exist apart from the concept of fairness?

The lie is that you think you know what any of these things are.

I asked you to tell me where and when I defended wickedness and injustice
I asked you to tell me when and where I condemned the righteous and the just

I'm still waiting, Steve!

I'm still waiting for you to provide a definition for perfect goodness, justice and now fairness.

So, when you figure it out, post the definitions, the source from which you have developed your ideas, and then we can discuss it further, with an actual understanding, instead of just your whinings.

 

[treeplanter]

I'd say that you're gravely mistaken. Perhaps even lack the necessary tools to understand.

I would submit that no human being can know precisely what perfect goodness and perfect justice actually look like because no human being is perfect

You're the one who keeps pushing that you have a clue what perfect goodness and justice are.

You must have me confused with another poster, Steve

I'm the one who keeps pushing that God is unworthy of our devotion because He is anything but perfectly good and just

I'm also the one who freely admits to not knowing what perfect goodness and justice fully entails
{See above!}

I'm still waiting for you to provide a definition for perfect goodness, justice and now fairness.

Then you're going to be waiting for some time

As I have already explained, I don't know what exactly constitutes perfect goodness and justice

What I do know is that:
1. God, per His actions as described in scripture, is an absolutely miserable excuse for perfect goodness and justice
2. Perfect goodness and justice incorporates the concept of fairness

 

[SteveB]

I would submit that no human being can know precisely what perfect goodness and perfect justice actually look like because no human being is perfect

Bingo! Congratulations!
You have just hit the nail on the head!

YHVH however does, and he's presented what they are, in the bible.

You must have me confused with another poster, Steve

Nope. You've been quite clear all along. In all honesty, I'm disappointed you're backpedaling so much!
Just own it Tree. Be proud of your ignorance.

I'm the one who keeps pushing that God is unworthy of our devotion because He is anything but perfectly good and just

Ironically, you'd have to know what perfect goodness, and justice are, and above you admitted to the long known fact among bible believers that there's no human who does know what they are.

I'm also the one who freely admits to not knowing what perfect goodness and justice fully entails
{See above!}

And yet you repeat your rant----

I'm the one who keeps pushing that God is unworthy of our devotion because He is anything but perfectly good and just

Then you're going to be waiting for some time

Then I'd say you'd better drop your rant. Because if you're not capable of presenting a definition that is valid, correct, accurate and true, then you're a fraud.

As I have already explained, I don't know what exactly constitutes perfect goodness and justice

What I do know is that:
1. God, per His actions as described in scripture, is an absolutely miserable excuse for perfect goodness and justice
2. Perfect goodness and justice incorporates the concept of fairness

Which means that you claim to have a source to know what perfect goodness and justice and fairness are.
And since you

As I have already explained, I don't know what exactly constitutes perfect goodness and justice

Your rant is a lie, based on your beliefs, and not on truth, or fact.

 

[treeplanter]

Bingo! Congratulations!
You have just hit the nail on the head!

YHVH however does, and he's presented what they are, in the bible.


Nope. You've been quite clear all along. In all honesty, I'm disappointed you're backpedaling so much!
Just own it Tree. Be proud of your ignorance.


Ironically, you'd have to know what perfect goodness, and justice are, and above you admitted to the long known fact among bible believers that there's no human who does know what they are.


And yet you repeat your rant----



Then I'd say you'd better drop your rant. Because if you're not capable of presenting a definition that is valid, correct, accurate and true, then you're a fraud.



Which means that you claim to have a source to know what perfect goodness and justice and fairness are.
And since you


Your rant is a lie, based on your beliefs, and not on truth, or fact.

You got me, Steve!

You win
I cannot describe either perfect goodness or perfect justice
I must, therefore, be some sort of Satanist, right?


Can we move on, now?

Will you please explain to me how perfect goodness and perfect justice can exist without incorporating the concept of fairness?

Think of it this way, Steve, I may not know how to prepare a gourmet meal, but I certainly know a bad meal when I encounter one

By this same token, I may not know what constitutes perfect goodness and justice, but I can certainly recognize when so-called goodness and justice fall short of perfection!


Please, answer my question

How can perfect goodness and perfect justice exist apart from the concept of fairness?

 

[Tercon]

And yet all humans are punished for Adam (and Eve's) acting up, because your "Teacher" set up the system that way.

I am not punished for what "Adam (and Eve's)", but you are. God offers redemption.

 

[Eightcrackers]

I am not punished for what "Adam (and Eve's)", but you are. God offers redemption.

To continue the analogy,

the teacher punishes all students if one acts up... but selects one perfect, blameless student (who happens to be the teacher's son) that will take on all the punishment for those students that are prepared to accept the deal, be grateful, and supplicate.

And you think this makes the system more fair.

 

[Furion]

You got me, Steve!

You win
I cannot describe either perfect goodness or perfect justice
I must, therefore, be some sort of Satanist, right?

No, just an atheist who declares things on the basis of ignorance, complaining about some conclusion you've drawn from inside your ignorance.