WHOSE RIGHTEOUS?

Bonnie

Super Member
Jesus name is not in the passage. Paul doesn't say that Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us.
That is not what I asked. I asked you WHAT is imputed/credited to us as righteousness, according to Paul in Romans 4...the same thing that was imputed/credited to Abraham as righteousness...what is that one, little, 5-letter word? Why is do HARD for you to answer?
 

balshan

Well-known member
That is not what I asked. I asked you WHAT is imputed/credited to us as righteousness, according to Paul in Romans 4...the same thing that was imputed/credited to Abraham as righteousness...what is that one, little, 5-letter word? Why is do HARD for you to answer?
Deep down the RCC does not to really acknowledge what Jesus has done for sinners. It would lessen their control over the laity. It diminishes the work Jesus did by their changing the focus from Him alone, moving it downwards to what Mary did, what the saints did, their works based salvation theology, their focus on their pope and his cronies, their diminishing of the word of God, the promoting of the ECFs and the catechism. Modern RCs like to focus even on atheists rather than Jesus.

The say they follow Him, it makes them sound holy but in reality they have turned their eyes elsewhere.

It is sad to witness this discussion.
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
Oh, it is VERY clear, to those without RCC blinders on!
It is not explicitly stated in scripture that we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. It is your interpretation of scripture. The highest/ultimate authority is God's word.

This doctrine you are suggesting as being true is a huge doctrinal statement to make and definitely effects how we live our Christian life. So it is important that we examine it closely.
 

balshan

Well-known member
It is not explicitly stated in scripture that we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. It is your interpretation of scripture. The highest/ultimate authority is God's word.

This doctrine you are suggesting as being true is a huge doctrinal statement to make and definitely effects how we live our Christian life. So it is important that we examine it closely.
Yes it makes us different people, it means God's word is written on our hearts and minds and we want to do His will. Unlike before when we did as we wanted.

You are just avoiding answering the questions that is not explicitly stated in scripture, that is the excuse the RCs use when defending its false teachings that even though it is not explitcitly stated it is implied. There is a word for those who say one thing yet do another.
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
Yes it makes us different people, it means God's word is written on our hearts and minds and we want to do His will. Unlike before when we did as we wanted.

You are just avoiding answering the questions that is not explicitly stated in scripture, that is the excuse the RCs use when defending its false teachings that even though it is not explitcitly stated it is implied. There is a word for those who say one thing yet do another.
Sorry, but I am not accepting your doctrine.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Sorry, but I am not accepting your doctrine.
You are still avoiding the obvious, no surprise and not answering questions. It is not my doctrine at all, it is simply what scripture clearly states if you have eyes to see. You can follow the false doctrines of the RCC that is your choose. I would never force anyone to leave that is not the right thing to do. But RCC liked to force their views on others, they did so for centuries.
 

dingoling.

Well-known member
You are still avoiding the obvious, no surprise and not answering questions. It is not my doctrine at all, it is simply what scripture clearly states if you have eyes to see. You can follow the false doctrines of the RCC that is your choose. I would never force anyone to leave that is not the right thing to do. But RCC liked to force their views on others, they did so for centuries.
Scripture doesn't clearly state your doctrine: we have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, a one time imputed righteousness at the time of conversion and it is this righteousness that we stand before God on.

I have a hard time accepting it when it is not explicitly stated in scripture and it is not even mentioned in the writings of John, Peter, James, Jude or the writer of Hebrews.

Also, as another example we read through Peter's letters:

I Peter 4:17-18, "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, what will be the end for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?”

II Peter 3:11-12, "Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought you to be in leading lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire?"

I ask myself why Peter didn't say anything about being imputed with the righteousness of Christ? Why didn't he say, "yes, be we don't need to worry about any of these things because we have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ. He didn't say that and if it were true Peter would have made reference to it.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Scripture doesn't clearly state your doctrine: we have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, a one time imputed righteousness at the time of conversion and it is this righteousness that we stand before God on.

I have a hard time accepting it when it is not explicitly stated in scripture and it is not even mentioned in the writings of John, Peter, James, Jude or the writer of Hebrews.

Also, as another example we read through Peter's letters:

I Peter 4:17-18, "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, what will be the end for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?”

II Peter 3:11-12, "Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought you to be in leading lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire?"

I ask myself why Peter didn't say anything about being imputed with the righteousness of Christ? Why didn't he say, "yes, be we don't need to worry about any of these things because we have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ. He didn't say that and if it were true Peter would have made reference to it.
So by the first sentence scripture does unclearly state my belief. So you are now in agreement the righteousness is Jesus, well that is a big improvement to be honest.

But to be fear the scriptures do not clearly or unclearly state any of your false RC beliefs. When you are holy please let us all know that you have achieved that mark and what miracles will you perform after death, so that you can be called Saint Dingoling?

I wonder why he would need to say it, after all he agreed with the writings of Paul. Peter does not say pray to the dead, or pray to Mary after she died, that he would have successors no reference at all to RC beliefs at all.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Scripture doesn't clearly state your doctrine: we have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, a one time imputed righteousness at the time of conversion and it is this righteousness that we stand before God on.

I have a hard time accepting it when it is not explicitly stated in scripture and it is not even mentioned in the writings of John, Peter, James, Jude or the writer of Hebrews.

Also, as another example we read through Peter's letters:

I Peter 4:17-18, "For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, what will be the end for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?”

II Peter 3:11-12, "Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought you to be in leading lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set ablaze and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire?"

I ask myself why Peter didn't say anything about being imputed with the righteousness of Christ? Why didn't he say, "yes, be we don't need to worry about any of these things because we have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ. He didn't say that and if it were true Peter would have made reference to it.
I note your bolded part. So, you won't believe anything that isn't explicitly stated in the Bible? Why then, do you believe the following:

1. Praying to saints dead in the Lord--nowhere did Jesus or the apostles say "you should pray to saints dead in Jesus Christ for help and succor and salavation."
2. The 4 Marian dogmas--nowhere does the Bible state that Mary remained a virgin the rest of her life, had no other children (the opposite is actually true), was crowned queen of heaven, and was taken bodily up to heaven.
3. Purgatory--nowhere does the Bible say that believers must spend some time in Purgatory after death to be "purged" of any sin they have left in them, before going to heaven.
4. celibate, unmarried clergy (in fact, the NT teaches the opposite)--nowhere does the NT say the church has a formal priesthood--just the priesthood of all believers--nor does it say that "elders and bishops should be unmarried and remain celibate." In fact, it states just the opposite! They should be the "husbands of one wife"!
5. Popes as head of the church--nowhere does the NT say there is one man as the head of the church and he should be the pope--Matthew 16 doesn't say that, either. ALL the apostles were leaders in the church. No one man was singled out as the leader of all the church.
6. Indulgences. NOWHERE in the Bible is there even a hint at this gross doctrine! NOWHERE. Yet, you believe what your church teaches about indulgences, don't you?

NONE of these things is explicitly stated in the Bible, or even IMplicitly stated. NOT even a hint. Yet--you believe all of these things, don't you?

Can we say "double standard"? Yes, we can....

Oh, yes, the Trinity doctrine is not explicit in the Bible, but implicit....yet you believe in the Triune Godhead, do you not? As do I? But the above doctrines I enumerated are nowhere even hinted at in the Bible! And yet, the Bible DOES say SOMETHING is imputed/credited to us as righteousness, in Romans 4, that was also credited/imputed to Abraham--what did Paul say that was, ding?

"5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their FAITH is credited as righteousness."

What is it Paul says is credited to us as righteousness, ding? Care to finally take off your RCC glasses and read what this verse actually says?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
It is not explicitly stated in scripture that we are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. It is your interpretation of scripture. The highest/ultimate authority is God's word.

It doesn't say anything about the 4 Marian dogmas, or Indulgences, or Purgatory, either--yet you have NO problem believing those!

Paul clearly writes that we are imputed/credited with God's righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus is God,, isn't He?
This doctrine you are suggesting as being true is a huge doctrinal statement to make and definitely effects how we live our Christian life. So it is important that we examine it closely.
Yes, go ahead, examine it closely. Paul says we are credited/imputed with righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ. And that righteousness comes from God! Isn't God righteous? Isn't Jesus fully God as well as fully man?

"5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness."

What does Paul say is credited to us as righteousness? I bolded the answer so you cannot miss it. It is a very simple answer, ding. Why are you so reluctant to answer my question?

Romans 3:

Righteousness Through Faith​

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

So, this righteousness is given to us BY FAITH in Jesus Christ. So, where does this righteousness come from? From Whom? It is in the first sentence that I bolded.

This verse is really explicit:

Philippians 3:

8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, NOT having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

OUR righteousness comes from God. It is gifted to us.

Romans 5: 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

So, yes, our righteousness is gifted to us by God through faith in Jesus Christ.
 
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