Why all the exclusion clauses?

[dberrie2020]

Maybe go re read acts 2:38

Acts2:38 has both repentance and water baptism connected to God's grace of the forgiveness of sins:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That was my concern--IE--

MMDAN said: In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first.

No, you didn't. John 4 doesn't say a word about the apostles being baptized.

Then where do we find the 12 apostles baptizing before John 4?(If John 4:2 offers 2 possibilities)--the one you might choose has to mean the apostles were baptizing. Where is that found before John4?

 

[4Him]

I disagree. Here is the evidence:

The verse in John 4:2--- (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)--could have two possible meanings:

No, it can't. It means they were baptizing.....the apostles did the baptizing, not Jesus....that is exactly what the verse is saying.

Since the scriptures testify it was Jesus baptizing here:

John 3:22---King James Version
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 3:26---King James Version
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

Those scriptures testify Jesus did baptize, and was baptizing.

That eliminates #1 choice above as being possible.

So--let's examine the scripture again---who was Jesus with, when the scriptures claimed Jesus was baptizing?

John 3:22---King James Version
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

The scripture then comes into view once again---(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)--most likely having the meaning Jesus did not baptize anyone, with the exception of His disciples.(apostles)

The accusation was that Jesus baptized more than John:

John 4:1-2---King James Version
1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

The parenthesis clarifies that just wasn't true--Jesus only baptized His disciples(apostles)--whom He was with while He was baptizing.

The argument posed in John4:1 was not whether Jesus baptized or not--but rather--the number of people He baptized.

Already addressed this....John 4 clarifies John 3.....the apostles were doing the baptizing...

What baptism were they baptizing? Christian baptism had yet to be instituted.

 

[4Him]

Acts2:38 has both repentance and water baptism connected to God's grace of the forgiveness of sins:

And I addressed the verse by stating that those in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit prior to baptism.

 

[dberrie2020]

No, it can't. It means they were baptizing.....the apostles did the baptizing, not Jesus....that is exactly what the verse is saying.

4Him--taint so!! is neither a very convincing nor compelling argument.

Again--the scriptures testify it was Jesus doing the baptizing:

John 3:22---King James Version
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 3:26---King James Version
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

That has Jesus baptizing. You are going to either have to go into denial, or come up with some other approach--the scriptures are not obscure there--it was Jesus Christ doing the baptisms in those verses.

Again--where do we find any of the 12 apostles ever specifically baptizing before John 4? We have definitive scriptures which testify Jesus was baptizing--where is your evidence the 12 baptized, specifically--before John4?

 

[dberrie2020]

What baptism were they baptizing? Christian baptism had yet to be instituted.

That claim does not touch my concern here:


"I disagree. Here is the evidence:

The verse in John 4:2--- (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)--could have two possible meanings:

1) That Jesus did not do any baptisms, rather--- the disciples did the baptizing.
2) That Jesus did not baptize anyone other than His disciples.

Since the scriptures testify it was Jesus baptizing here:

John 3:22---King James Version
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 3:26---King James Version
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

Those scriptures testify Jesus did baptize, and was baptizing.

That eliminates #1 choice above as being possible.

So--let's examine the scripture again---who was Jesus with, when the scriptures claimed Jesus was baptizing?

John 3:22---King James Version
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

The scripture then comes into view once again---(Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)--most likely having the meaning Jesus did not baptize anyone, with the exception of His disciples.(apostles)

The accusation was that Jesus baptized more than John:

John 4:1-2---King James Version
1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

The parenthesis clarifies that just wasn't true--Jesus only baptized His disciples(apostles)--whom He was with while He was baptizing.

The argument posed in John4:1 was not whether Jesus baptized or not--but rather--the number of people He baptized."

Care to engage that?

 

[dberrie2020]

And I addressed the verse by stating that those in Acts 10 received the gift of the Holy Spirit prior to baptism.

Then you addressed something that was not part of my OP concern.

So--if you want to go there---

That still leaves God extending His grace of the remission of sins--to them which repent and are baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here is the problem--if that is true--then faith alone theology is false--and jumping to Acts10 isn't going to solve that.

The faith alone theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ as either necessary or required--in obtaining God's salvational grace unto life. Pointing out Acts10 won't help you, for this reason:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

That still has acts of obedience to Jesus Christ linked to the Holy Ghost, and pointing out they received it without water baptism does not negate the fact obedience is still linked there. You have to break that link--which you can't--in order to vindicate faith alone theology. You can't do it. The problem remains.

But exactly what one will find taught in the LDS church.

 

[4Him]

4Him--taint so!! is neither a very convincing nor compelling argument.

Actually, Scripture interprets Scripture....so yes, it's convincing.

Again--the scriptures testify it was Jesus doing the baptizing:

No, John 4 tells us that He wasn't.

John 3:22---King James Version
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 3:26---King James Version
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

That has Jesus baptizing. You are going to either have to go into denial, or come up with some other approach--the scriptures are not obscure there--it was Jesus Christ doing the baptisms in those verses.

John 4 confirms it was the apostles doing the baptizing.

Again--where do we find any of the 12 apostles ever specifically baptizing before John 4? We have definitive scriptures which testify Jesus was baptizing--where is your evidence the 12 baptized, specifically--before John4?

Already addressed.

 

[4Him]

Then you addressed something that was not part of my OP concern.

I addressed the verse.

So--if you want to go there---

That still leaves God extending His grace of the remission of sins--to them which repent and are baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here is the problem--if that is true--then faith alone theology is false--and jumping to Acts10 isn't going to solve that.

The faith alone theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ

No, it doesn't, which proves you don't understand what it means.

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Only the saved can 'worketh righteousness'...

Without faith, it is impossible to please God....

That still has acts of obedience to Jesus Christ linked to the Holy Ghost, and pointing out they received it without water baptism does not negate the fact obedience is still linked there.

No one has argued that we are not to obey....so your argument is moot.

 

[dberrie2020]

No, John 4 tells us that He wasn't.

More denial. John 4 makes no such specific statement. But the two verses I quoted does:

John 3:22---King James Version
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 3:26---King James Version
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

That has Jesus baptizing. Period. The clause in John4:2 is left undefined, and one can't define it the way you do--without violating the above verses. There are other options.

Throwing those verses under the bus to protect your theology isn't going to change that, IMO.

John 4 confirms it was the apostles doing the baptizing.

It does not specifically state that. As has been discussed--there is another possibility, and if the verses above are true--then that possibility needs to be considered, as your option is not a possibility, if the testimony of John is true.

And you have not shown where you find any of the 12 apostles baptizing before John4. I have shown where Jesus was--and His disciples were with Him when He was baptizing. There is no specific record of the disciples baptizing. The scriptures are specific, as to Jesus baptizing.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie said---So--if you want to go there---

That still leaves God extending His grace of the remission of sins--to them which repent and are baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here is the problem--if that is true--then faith alone theology is false--and jumping to Acts10 isn't going to solve that.

The faith alone theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ

No, it doesn't, which proves you don't understand what it means.

More "taint so!!" arguments. Acts2:38 has God extending His grace of the remission of sins--to them which repent and are baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And faith alone theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ in obtaining eternal life. There isn't anything anyone can proffer which would change that--it's just the way the rabbits eat a head of lettuce.

 

[dberrie2020]

Only the saved can 'worketh righteousness'...

Are you claiming that God saves those before they are acceptable to Him?

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Without faith, it is impossible to please God....

I agree. I have but one question here--when you reference the term "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a reference to a faith without works?

No one has argued that we are not to obey....so your argument is moot.

Oh, no it isn't. The point of concern isn't whether one believes in obedience--but rather--does God require obedience to Him in order for one to obtain eternal life?

Because if God requires that obedience for His grace unto life--then faith alone theology is false. At once. That theology(faith alone) excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--in obtaining eternal life.

The Biblical text begs to differ:

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[4Him]

More denial. John 4 makes no such specific statement.

It specifically does.

But the two verses I quoted does:

Stop spamming.

Throwing those verses under the bus to protect your theology isn't going to change that, IMO.

Then I suggest you stop doing it.

And you have not shown where you find any of the 12 apostles baptizing before John4.

Already addressed.

 

[4Him]

The faith alone theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ

That is a lie. Stop.

More "taint so!!"

For you. You have no idea what you are arguing against.

 

[4Him]

Are you claiming that God saves those before they are acceptable to Him?

Without faith, it is impossible to please God....the works of the unfaithful are not righteous works.

I agree. I have but one question here--when you reference the term "faith"--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a reference to a faith without works?

Does God grant His children dead faith?

Oh, no it isn't.

Oh, yes it is.

The point of concern isn't whether one believes in obedience--but rather--does God require obedience to Him in order for one to obtain eternal life?

He requires faith. We walk in the works He prepared beforehand for us....no one walks in the works HE prepared for us before they are granted faith.

Because if God requires that obedience for His grace unto life--then faith alone theology is false.

Again, you show your ignorance of what it means.

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Who obeys Him? The unfaithful?

 

[Richard7]

Doublespeak.....receiving the Holy Spirit is a gift, PERIOD.


While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And [o]those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.


Those in Acts 10 spoke in tongues also.....before baptism.

I of course do disagree.... its a privilege. One must be born again as in

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again2 he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 rThat which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.3 7 tDo not marvel that I said to you, ‘You4 must be born again.’ 8 vThe wind5 blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[dberrie2020]

That is a lie. Stop.

For you. You have no idea what you are arguing against.

Please print my whole sentence:

dberrie said---"More "taint so!!" arguments. Acts2:38 has God extending His grace of the remission of sins--to them which repent and are baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And faith alone theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ in obtaining eternal life. There isn't anything anyone can proffer which would change that--it's just the way the rabbits eat a head of lettuce."

Of course that is the truth---that's why it's called faith alone--because it's alone in obtaining eternal life, as to works. The faith alone here have already informed the LDS there are no works required nor necessary for eternal life to occur.

If you feel that isn't the truth--then please inform us what acts of obedience you add in obtaining eternal life.

 

[Magdalena]

Please print my whole sentence:

dberrie said---"More "taint so!!" arguments. Acts2:38 has God extending His grace of the remission of sins--to them which repent and are baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And faith alone theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ in obtaining eternal life. There isn't anything anyone can proffer which would change that--it's just the way the rabbits eat a head of lettuce."

Of course that is the truth---that's why it's called faith alone--because it's alone in obtaining eternal life, as to works. The faith alone here have already informed the LDS there are no works required nor necessary for eternal life to occur.

If you feel that isn't the truth--then please inform us what acts of obedience you add in obtaining eternal life.

That is a lie.

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie said---"More "taint so!!" arguments. Acts2:38 has God extending His grace of the remission of sins--to them which repent and are baptized:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And faith alone theology excludes all acts of obedience to Jesus Christ in obtaining eternal life. There isn't anything anyone can proffer which would change that--it's just the way the rabbits eat a head of lettuce."

Of course that is the truth---that's why it's called faith alone--because it's alone in obtaining eternal life, as to works. The faith alone here have already informed the LDS there are no works required nor necessary for eternal life to occur.

If you feel that isn't the truth--then please inform us what acts of obedience you add in obtaining eternal life.

That is a lie.

Please do print for us what works you add to faith in obtaining eternal life. Haven't you and organ been busy relating to us there are no works necessary or required in obtaining eternal life? Then why is it a lie?

Mag--4Him--here is your chance to prove me a liar. Please print what works are added to faith in obtaining eternal life, in faith alone theology.

The answer is going to be--crickets.

 

[dberrie2020]

Without faith, it is impossible to please God....the works of the unfaithful are not righteous works.

What has that got to do with my posted concerns? All men will be judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Does God grant His children dead faith?

No--so why do the faith alone adherents and theology---preach a faith without works in obtaining eternal life?

We walk in the works He prepared beforehand for us....no one walks in the works HE prepared for us before they are granted faith.

And no one receives eternal life without the Blood of Christ:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That has God's grace conditional upon one's walk. Anathema to faith alone theology.

Who obeys Him? The unfaithful?

The faithful--which connects obedience with faith in obtaining eternal life:

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[4Him]

I of course do disagree.... its a privilege.

It's a gift, as Scripture says it is.