Why believe in the truth and reality of God?

Tercon

Active member
If the only way and place that the truth, logic and reality can be known to exist and be experienced is in and by a believing mind, then the truth, logic and reality cannot be known or experienced in any other way and place but in and by a believing mind. And if the truth, logic and reality existed always, because it is self-defeating to suggest otherwise, then the truth, logic and reality must have always existed in a believing mind, because there is no other way or place that the truth, logic and reality can be known to exist outside of a believing mind.
Therefore, the truth, logic and reality must be the product of God's believing mind. Why? because it cannot be known exist or be experienced in any other way or place but in and by a believing mind, so who's mind better than God's believing mind?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Why do this again, Tercon? This is essentially the same argument you've posted in a hundred previous threads, and the refutation remains the same. You are equivocating on whether it is the knowledge of reality or the existence of reality that requires a mind. Obviously reality requires a mind to be known, but you've never supported your claim that reality requires a mind in order to exist. As always, the counterexample is MIPUST* which you never manage to address or refute. You typically just wrongly claim that mind-independence would require it to be known without a mind, and then return to conflating knowledge and existence.

* Mind-Independent Universe of Space and Time.
 

Tercon

Active member
Why do this again, Tercon? This is essentially the same argument you've posted in a hundred previous threads, and the refutation remains the same. You are equivocating on whether it is the knowledge of reality or the existence of reality that requires a mind. Obviously reality requires a mind to be known, but you've never supported your claim that reality requires a mind in order to exist. As always, the counterexample is MIPUST* which you never manage to address or refute. You typically just wrongly claim that mind-independence would require it to be known without a mind, and then return to conflating knowledge and existence.

* Mind-Independent Universe of Space and Time.
What refutation, as I haven't seen any refutation to the existence of the truth and reality. And as I have pointed out before, if your "MIPUST" isn't believing mind dependent, like all truth, logic and reality itself is, then it is unable to be known to be true in reality.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
What refutation...
The one I literally just gave you in the post you are replying to.

...as I haven't seen any refutation to the existence of the truth and reality.
It was a refutation of your argument, not of reality. I believe in reality - aka MIPUST - even though you don't.

And as I have pointed out before, if your "MIPUST" isn't believing mind dependent, like all truth, logic and reality itself is, then it is unable to be known to be true in reality.
Unsupported and false. MIPUST is known by minds, but is not dependent on any mind for its existence. As usual, you have no rebuttal.
 

Tercon

Active member
The one I literally just gave you in the post you are replying to.
That's just the delusion you call "MIPUST" that you are wallowing around in.
It was a refutation of your argument, not of reality. I believe in reality - aka MIPUST - even though you don't
Unsupported and false. MIPUST is known by minds, but is not dependent on any mind for its existence. As usual, you have no rebuttal.
Well if your "MIPUST" requires YOUR believing mind in order for it to be known in or as reality, then YOUR "MIPUST" is dependent on a believing mind for its existence in reality. What are you missing here? As if all truth, logic, consciousness, existence and reality itself is dependent on a believing mind for its existence, then there is literally nowhere outside of a believing mind that these things can known to exist and be experienced in or as reality. And if there is, then name just one other way or place that has the capacity of a believing mind, but isn't a believing mind.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
That's just the delusion you call "MIPUST" that you are wallowing around in.
Reality is not a delusion, nor have you shown it to be.

Well if your "MIPUST" requires YOUR believing mind in order for it to be known in or as reality, then YOUR "MIPUST" is dependent on a believing mind for its existence in reality.
False. Knowledge-of-MIPUST requiring a mind is not the same thing as MIPUST itself requiring a mind. As predicted, you are again just continuing to conflate knowledge and existence, exactly as you have done in ever single thread you create.

What are you missing here?
A reasoned rebuttal to my point that doesn't just conflate knowledge and existence.

As if all truth, logic, consciousness, existence and reality itself is dependent on a believing mind for its existence...
It isn't, nor have you shown it to be.
 

Diogenes

Active member
That's just the delusion you call "MIPUST" that you are wallowing around in.

Well if your "MIPUST" requires YOUR believing mind in order for it to be known in or as reality,

His MIPUST would exist even if there were no minds to know of its existence.

Existence doesn't require a believing mind unless you're Bishop Berkley.
 

Tercon

Active member
His MIPUST would exist even if there were no minds to know of its existence.
How do you know that's true, when everything you know to be true in and about reality you require YOUR believing mind in order to make it known to you?
Existence doesn't require a believing mind unless you're Bishop Berkley.
Do you really believe that YOUR "Existence doesn't require a believing mind"?
 

Diogenes

Active member
How do you know that's true, when everything you know to be true in and about reality you require YOUR believing mind in order to make it known to you

Nothing in my reality requies my "believing mind" in order for it to exist. You're confusing something existing and knowing of something existing.

Do you really believe that YOUR "Existence doesn't require a believing mind"?

If I fell into a coma and everyone else vanish, I would still exist, just not for very long.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
If the only way and place that the truth, logic and reality can be known to exist and be experienced is in and by a believing mind, then the truth, logic and reality cannot be known or experienced in any other way and place but in and by a believing mind. And if the truth, logic and reality existed always, because it is self-defeating to suggest otherwise, then the truth, logic and reality must have always existed in a believing mind, because there is no other way or place that the truth, logic and reality can be known to exist outside of a believing mind.
Therefore, the truth, logic and reality must be the product of God's believing mind. Why? because it cannot be known exist or be experienced in any other way or place but in and by a believing mind, so who's mind better than God's believing mind?
I can only echo the thoughts of a previous poster. Why do this again? You have convinced no one with this, and everyone gives you more or less the same objection.
 

Tercon

Active member
Nothing in my reality requies my "believing mind" in order for it to exist. You're confusing something existing and knowing of something existing.

Really, so your belief or your believing mind isn't necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you?
If I fell into a coma and everyone else vanish, I would still exist, just not for very long.

Actually I have another scenario for you, the only difference being that it's reality; if you disbelieve in the truth and reality or disbelieve in the way that the truth and reality is known to you or have a disbelieving mind in regards to the truth and reality, then the truth and reality are unknowable to you.
 

Tercon

Active member
I can only echo the thoughts of a previous poster. Why do this again? You have convinced no one with this, and everyone gives you more or less the same objection.

And you too would be echoing the same illogical nonsense as the other unbelievers here. I am not here to convince unbelievers of anything, because in reality it is only the truth that can make himself known to the believer, because the rest have chosen the abyss over the reality of God.
 

Tiburon

Member
If the only way and place that the truth, logic and reality can be known to exist and be experienced is in and by a believing mind, then the truth, logic and reality cannot be known or experienced in any other way and place but in and by a believing mind. And if the truth, logic and reality existed always, because it is self-defeating to suggest otherwise, then the truth, logic and reality must have always existed in a believing mind, because there is no other way or place that the truth, logic and reality can be known to exist outside of a believing mind.
Therefore, the truth, logic and reality must be the product of God's believing mind. Why? because it cannot be known exist or be experienced in any other way or place but in and by a believing mind, so who's mind better than God's believing mind?
How do you know God "believes"? Whose believing mind does God's existence depend upon?
 

Tiburon

Member
Really, so your belief or your believing mind isn't necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you?


Actually I have another scenario for you, the only difference being that it's reality; if you disbelieve in the truth and reality or disbelieve in the way that the truth and reality is known to you or have a disbelieving mind in regards to the truth and reality, then the truth and reality are unknowable to you.
You still haven't shown that reality requires a believing mind in order to exist. Do you know of someone who doesn't "believe" in anything?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
And you too would be echoing the same illogical nonsense as the other unbelievers here. I am not here to convince unbelievers of anything, because in reality it is only the truth that can make himself known to the believer, because the rest have chosen the abyss over the reality of God.
You're not convincing anyone of anything. Even the believers here reject your nonsense, as you know perfectly well.
 

Tercon

Active member
How do you know God "believes"?

Belief came from somewhere and whereas belief isn't a physical sense or capacity, but is purely the mental act of a mind and it is only a willing mind that can believe, then we can safely assume that it is something belonging to the truth and reality itself, because it is only a believing mind that can have its own will.
Whose believing mind does God's existence depend upon?
No-one's, he has His own believing mind, as he's reality itself.
You still haven't shown that reality requires a believing mind in order to exist. Do you know of someone who doesn't "believe" in anything?

What do you know of that doesn't require a believing mind in order to be known to exist in reality? And I don't think I am going out on a limb here when I say that; if it is ONLY a believing mind that can experience the truth, logic, consciousness and existence itself, then we can safely assume that existence too is the product of a believing mind as well.

But, if you know of another way or place that possesses the capacity of a believing mind in making the truth, logic, consciousness and existence itself known to us, then say what that other way or place is or forever hold your peace.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
No Christian disbelieves in the truth and reality of God silly, as it's only atheists that do that.
I never said they did. Obviously Christians believe God is real. What no-one here believes, atheist or Christian, is your endlessly repeated nonsensical arguments.
 
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