Why believe the Gospels?

SteveB

Well-known member
So you believe the Gospels because of...CS Lewis?
Nope.
I simply provided the quote from Lewis because it makes a point. Which I further explained.
I didn't even know of Lewis' existence when I came to Jesus. He'd died when I was a young child, and lived 6000 miles away from where I did when I was growing up.

And you think the writings of Jainism, Hinduism, and the thousands of other religions are 'darkness'?
That is what the Law says. Doctrines of demons. False teachings, which keep humans from knowing YHVH, and his righteousness.
OK. Solid argument. Thanks.

"Sing the song of celestial love, O singer! May the divine fountain of eternal grace and joy enter your soul.
May Brahma, (the Divine One), pluck the strings of your inner soul with His celestial fingers, And feel His own presence within.
Bless us with a divine voice that we may tune the harp-strings of our life to sing songs of Love to you."

-- from the Hindu Rig Veda

Yeah - I see what you mean - all those songs of love are just a straight highway to darkness.

;)
So, you think sthis is supposed to be love?
Sounds like what we used to talk about when we were high on LSD, and hallucinogens.
Pass.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Christians have chosen to believe by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through the Holy Spirit, Christians are released from the bondage of practicing sin. And have come to know God as Father through the Spirit of Adoption as outlined in Ephesians 1.
So there is no reason to believe The Bible instead of the other books - no evidence or proof. You just choose which God to be real and then believe it.

OK. Thanks. And yes it does answer my question :)
 

Furion

Well-known member
My issue used to be with people who claimed to know the mind of a God and tried to use that to make people do what they say. I did not like when abortion, LGBTQ, science text books, etc were influenced by people who said they spoke for God.
I don't even know what that means. If you are trying to say you don't agree with what God has said to us, it's between you and God.
Now that Christianity is not really a force in American politics anymore I am not sure I have any issue with you or your beliefs.

It's still the driving force, sorry. In fact the generic question of 'belief in God' consistency comes in at around ninety percent, give or take.

I think you are way overplaying your hand when it comes to any atheist surge. But really, who cares, it's a strange claim with no apparent reason to claim it. America is hopelessly christian.

Sure, y'all have done your best to eliminate God and Christ, and you can continue to try, but you are receiving diminishing returns.

Times change and I am trying to change with them.

Not my best moment and I regret typing it. It was rude of me and I apologize.
Look, Christ forgave those who spit at Him and beat Him, and killed Him.

I don't hold anything any atheist says about God against them. I am nobody anyway, you don't answer to me. I've directed plenty of ire at the Lord. That is not it.

It is for you to honestly assess your own behavior and what is in your heart (your mind)

The Bible does not make me angry. It has the same impact as The Koran or The Iliad or The Book of Mormon. My issue is with anyone who makes claims of supernatural knowledge that cannot prove it.

But that is lessening. I care less and less if people believe in Christ or astrology or Allah or Lord Shiva as long as they do not force those beliefs into laws and the classroom.
So it's "all about the children" then?

You are still upset they taught God in the classroom?

I was rude when I said that and I regret it. I apologize for my tone.

I cannot hate something that does not exist. And I don't really have an issue with Christianity anymore now that the Evangelical movement is no longer influencing US policy. When the 'family values' Evangelicals supported Trump it became clear that they had morphed into something else. Things change and I do not think Christianity is the problem anymore.

So I just accept you believe what you do and I wish you well :)

But you do express lots of hate, and I want you to honestly square that with your claim of not hating. You don't have to with me, it's just a request.

Treeplanter made the logical step in his progression here, finally admitting he does indeed hate God for who He is and what He has done. It's an honest base from which to proceed.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
I don't even know what that means. If you are trying to say you don't agree with what God has said to us, it's between you and God.
It is between me and you. You have claimed to know the truth of God. You cannot prove this is true. That's the totality of it.

I have similar discussions with my Hindu friends. They claim to know God as Brahma but cannot prove it is true.

So I ask you to prove you claim. Not God's claim since God is not here. Just you.
It's still the driving force, sorry. In fact the generic question of 'belief in God' consistency comes in at around ninety percent, give or take.
This is no longer true. The last Pew study found 26% of Americans listed as 'non-religious'. If you include people who said they have a general belief in God but are not really Christian, Muslim or Jew then that number is higher.

It varies nation to nation. The number of unbelievers is much higher in Europe, Japan, and South Korea. The number of believers is higher is South America.

But the US is now 25% non-believer. And the growth rate is accelerating.

Here is a good overview of the study and how they got their answers from 2019: https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/

This does not prove or disprove God in any way. But the demographic of the US is changing.
I think you are way overplaying your hand when it comes to any atheist surge. But really, who cares, it's a strange claim with no apparent reason to claim it. America is hopelessly christian.
This is not true. Christians will soon be a minority. That is just a fact - not good or bad really. But nonbelievers and people who believe in a generic 'god' but not Jesus are rising.

You can find lots of articles from The Catholic Church, The Southern Baptist Convention, and others giving advice on how to keep people from leaving Christianity. It is not a secret or even debated.
Sure, y'all have done your best to eliminate God and Christ, and you can continue to try, but you are receiving diminishing returns.
OK.
It is for you to honestly assess your own behavior and what is in your heart (your mind)
Oh - then I am good. Thanks.
So it's "all about the children" then?

You are still upset they taught God in the classroom?
They did not teach god in the classroom when I was a kid.
But you do express lots of hate, and I want you to honestly square that with your claim of not hating. You don't have to with me, it's just a request.
Great point and I am taking this to heart.
Treeplanter made the logical step in his progression here, finally admitting he does indeed hate God for who He is and what He has done. It's an honest base from which to proceed.
I do not hate God. I do seem to hate it when people make grandiose claims they cannot prove. I seem to hate it when people deny basic scientific fact like evolution or The Big Bang in favor of Genesis.

I do not really understand why I hate it though. And that is what I am thinking about.
 

Algor

Active member
I do not hate God. I do seem to hate it when people make grandiose claims they cannot prove. I seem to hate it when people deny basic scientific fact like evolution or The Big Bang in favor of Genesis.

I do not really understand why I hate it though. And that is what I am thinking about.

Usually people hate the ideas of other people when those ideas cause them anxiety.
 

Furion

Well-known member
It is between me and you. You have claimed to know the truth of God. You cannot prove this is true. That's the totality of it.

I have similar discussions with my Hindu friends. They claim to know God as Brahma but cannot prove it is true.

So I ask you to prove you claim. Not God's claim since God is not here. Just you.

This is no longer true. The last Pew study found 26% of Americans listed as 'non-religious'. If you include people who said they have a general belief in God but are not really Christian, Muslim or Jew then that number is higher.

It varies nation to nation. The number of unbelievers is much higher in Europe, Japan, and South Korea. The number of believers is higher is South America.

But the US is now 25% non-believer. And the growth rate is accelerating.

Here is a good overview of the study and how they got their answers from 2019: https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/

This does not prove or disprove God in any way. But the demographic of the US is changing.

This is not true. Christians will soon be a minority. That is just a fact - not good or bad really. But nonbelievers and people who believe in a generic 'god' but not Jesus are rising.

You can find lots of articles from The Catholic Church, The Southern Baptist Convention, and others giving advice on how to keep people from leaving Christianity. It is not a secret or even debated.

OK.

Oh - then I am good. Thanks.

They did not teach god in the classroom when I was a kid.

Great point and I am taking this to heart.

I do not hate God. I do seem to hate it when people make grandiose claims they cannot prove. I seem to hate it when people deny basic scientific fact like evolution or The Big Bang in favor of Genesis.

I do not really understand why I hate it though. And that is what I am thinking about.
The length of these post fragments are becoming tedious.

The scriptures declare these things, you trying to blame me makes me laugh.

"Non religious" is not synonymous with believing there is no God. The 90% is telling you something different if you are intelligent enough to see it.

Your dream of christian minority is just a hopeful wish.

You hate it because it is God, and the people of God relating to you what God says as recorded in scripture.

You can throw it all out and go bowling or something, but if you step into it,.........it's God.

Without God, we would not be talking.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
The scriptures declare these things, you trying to blame me makes me laugh.
You have never explained why you trust what The Bible scripture says but you do not follow the scriptures and holy writings of other anceint books.

I understand you believe whatever The Bible says. I have just never understood why.
"Non religious" is not synonymous with believing there is no God. The 90% is telling you something different if you are intelligent enough to see it.
Ok.
Your dream of christian minority is just a hopeful wish.
Its inevitable. It has already happened in all 27 countries in the EU. It has already happened in Japan and South Korea. But you can belive what you like of course.
You hate it because it is God, and the people of God relating to you what God says as recorded in scripture.
Nope. I dislike people who make claims about god knowledge and cannot prove it. Could be God, Shiva, or Allah. I just do not like unfounded claims.
You can throw it all out and go bowling or something, but if you step into it,.........it's God.
Sure.
Without God, we would not be talking.
Actually without science we would not be talking - no internet, no computers, no power plants.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
So if at 3:30PM you go to a viewing at a funeral home, scheduled between noon and 4PM, and you see Roger Brown's signature on the guest book, but look around and don't see him, you don't believe he was ever there?
If it really mattered - like if he was trying to prove an alibi - then no. That is not enough evidence to say for sue he was there. Anyone could have signed his name.

But you could get more evidence. You could compare his signature in the book to his known signature. You could check security cameras to see if they caught him going in. You could get written eyewitness testimony saying they saw him. You could find his fingerprints on the casket and the book.

Its not also not a binary yes or no - its a range of confidence. If we just had the signature we might say "I cannot say if he was there." Then we find eyewitnesses and we say "ok - I think it is possible he was here." Then we find images on cameras and fingerprints and we say "ok I am very confident he was here."

The more evidence the higher the confidence. But our confidence in almost never 100% or 0% since almost anything is possible.

Sadly we cannot find eyewitnesses or fingerprints or much of anything to prove an event from 2,000 years ago. So it makes sense to just say "we do not know if this is true but it is possible."

If you find one copy of a story in a 2,000 year old book and you believe 100% without question that it is true then you are not basing your beliefs on evidence. And since we have zero evidence from the lifetime of Jesus then there is no way to believe anything in The Bible based on evidence. If you believe in Jesus then it is faith or hope or just want you want to believe.

Which is cool. But more and more people cannot believe this way - we need evidence.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
If it really mattered - like if he was trying to prove an alibi - then no. That is not enough evidence to say for sue he was there. Anyone could have signed his name.

So you would believe he wasn't there. Me, I'd believe he was.

But you could get more evidence. You could compare his signature in the book to his known signature. You could check security cameras to see if they caught him going in. You could get written eyewitness testimony saying they saw him. You could find his fingerprints on the casket and the book.

Is that what you'd do? Lol. I'll bet you're a big hit at funerals.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
So you would believe he wasn't there. Me, I'd believe he was.
OK. So when you see stories of Allah in the Koran you believe those? And when you see stories in The Vedas you believe those?

It seems like you selectively believe some of what is written and not others. I consistently reject it all.
Is that what you'd do? Lol. I'll bet you're a big hit at funerals.
I usually do not try to prove an alibi at funerals. And I do not much care who signed the book.

Also I do not think anyone is a hit at funerals. Its usually kinda sad.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
OK. So when you see stories of Allah in the Koran you believe those? And when you see stories in The Vedas you believe those?

Nope. Should I?

It seems like you selectively believe some of what is written and not others.

Correct. Matter of credibility.

I consistently reject it all.

I know. You think people who sign viewing books at funeral homes use fake names. Very weird.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Nope. Should I?
Yes. If you believe The Bible you should believe all religious books from the ancient world - unless you can explain why The Bible is true and the other are not.

I reject them all pending evidence. You reject them all pending evidence except one. That is strange.
Correct. Matter of credibility.
What makes The Bible credible but the Vedas not?
I know. You think people who sign viewing books at funeral homes use fake names. Very weird.
I think it is possible. You believe some things you read without question - like funeral signatures and The Bible. But you reject other things you read like the Koran and Vedas. Very weird.

Its almost like you believe what you want to be true without any real reason - like a child hoping Santa is real.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Yes. If you believe The Bible you should believe all religious books from the ancient world - unless you can explain why The Bible is true and the other are not.

I reject them all pending evidence. You reject them all pending evidence except one. That is strange.

Strange? You mean untrue. And you have no evidence that I have no evidence.

What makes The Bible credible but the Vedas not?

The former reveals truth. The latter does not.

I think it is possible. You believe some things you read without question - like funeral signatures and The Bible. But you reject other things you read like the Koran and Vedas. Very weird.
Weird? I also believe Socrates existed, but not Bigfoot. Is that weird to you?? You are very shallow.
 

Furion

Well-known member
You have never explained why you trust what The Bible scripture says but you do not follow the scriptures and holy writings of other anceint books.

If these other beliefs conform to love, I will take no issue with them. Truth is good wherever it is found. I found God, and His name is Jesus Christ. I've not found any other.

In the same way, where the scriptures conform to secular humanism, you likely have no issue. And since secular humanism arose from christianity, well..
I understand you believe whatever The Bible says. I have just never understood why.

Ok.

Its inevitable. It has already happened in all 27 countries in the EU. It has already happened in Japan and South Korea. But you can belive what you like of course.

Nope. I dislike people who make claims about god knowledge and cannot prove it. Could be God, Shiva, or Allah. I just do not like unfounded claims.

Sure.

Actually without science we would not be talking - no internet, no computers, no power plants.

And you yourself have not proven secular humanism means anything. In your accidental universe your truth can be whatever you want it to be.

Godless love often turns out to be pretentious pricks who know not love, might bake you in an oven or send you to a "work camp", and just want to control people through their own religion.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
The former reveals truth. The latter does not.
We could do this all day. I can ask why you think The Bible tells the truth and you'll give another evasive non-answer. The truth is I do not think even you know why you believe The Bible. I think it gives you comfort to know it is true, to know that you are connected to God while others are not (tribalism), and to know that as bad as things get there will be peace some day.

I do not think you ever really evaluated The Bible for credulity. You just believed because it meets your need. Just as my friends believe The Vedas but cannot explain why.

And that's cool! I just do not believe things because I want them to be true. I like to know why.

So I'll remain a skeptic until someone can articulate why The Bible is believable but the Vedas are not.

There's no point in going further - I recognize that you just believe the Bible because you want to. No need to try and invent evidence that is not there and you do not even care to see.

Its all good.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
If these other beliefs conform to love, I will take no issue with them. Truth is good wherever it is found. I found God, and His name is Jesus Christ. I've not found any other.
So if The Vedas are about love then it is true? Congratulations! You are now a Hindu:

"Sing the song of celestial love, O singer!
May the divine fountain of eternal grace and joy
enter your soul.
May Brahma, (the Divine One),
Pluck the strings of your inner soul
with His celestial fingers,
And feel His own presence within.
Bless us with a divine voice
That we may tune the harp-strings of our life
To sing songs of Love to you." -- The Rig Veda

Here is your new image of God:

1vDBkm.jpg


And you yourself have not proven secular humanism means anything. In your accidental universe your truth can be whatever you want it to be.
Secular Humanish is just a life philosophy. There is nothing to prove. It is just some ideas about kindness and using science to discover new things. You can accept it or discard it. That has no impact on me.
Godless love often turns out to be pretentious pricks who know not love, might bake you in an oven or send you to a "work camp", and just want to control people through their own religion.
OK.

Believing The Bible is real because it about love is nonsensical. Lets just be honest: you believe The Bible because you want to. There is no reason that separates it from The Vedas. Don't break yourself trying to invent one :)
 

Furion

Well-known member
So if The Vedas are about love then it is true?
If there be truth, I have no issue. I know many Hindi, they talk of God, love and sin.

It is not my issue. If God has issues with any Hindi, that's Gods business, I condemn no man, but men condemn themselves with their own mouth, or writing. Rejecting Christ is the way they do it.

Believing The Bible is real because it about love is nonsensical. Lets just be honest: you believe The Bible because you want to. There is no reason that separates it from The Vedas. Don't break yourself trying to invent one :)
Because you cannot retain what I've said, it's because of experience. I've supped with the Lord. Try to remember that.

Whereas you have no experience, so naturally you are as you are.
 
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