Why can't unbelievers know the truth and reality of God.

Tercon

Well-known member
Unbelievers cannot know the truth or reality without first believing or having a believing mind in order to make the truth and reality know to them. And this is demonstrably true, because unbelievers disbelieve that belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them. And this unbelief is sufficient to make the truth and reality unknowable to unbelievers. And that is why unbelievers cannot know the truth and reality of God.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Unbelievers cannot know the truth or reality without first believing or having a believing mind in order to make the truth and reality know to them. And this is demonstrably true, because unbelievers disbelieve that belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them. And this unbelief is sufficient to make the truth and reality unknowable to unbelievers. And that is why unbelievers cannot know the truth and reality of God.
I think it's their fallen sinful nature that keeps them from believing.

Unless God intervenes...they will remain unbelievers.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
I think it's their fallen sinful nature that keeps them from believing.

Unless God intervenes...they will remain unbelievers.
The reason you say this is because you can't see how atheists think the evidence is lacking, right? So you have to rationalise as best you can, but in the end for atheists, it comes down to evidence and logic.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Unbelievers cannot know the truth or reality without first believing or having a believing mind in order to make the truth and reality know to them. And this is demonstrably true, because unbelievers disbelieve that belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to them. And this unbelief is sufficient to make the truth and reality unknowable to unbelievers. And that is why unbelievers cannot know the truth and reality of God.
Well, what did God tell Adam about eating the fruit?

In the day you eat thereof, dying, you shall die.

We further read in Romans that the wages of sin is death.

So, it seem that the reason they--- indeed, we did not know until he made himself known to us--- cannot know, is because their sin has killed the only means which God gave to us all, cutting them off from him.

As all have sinned, all are cut off, until he makes us spiritually alive.
As Paul told the Ephesians----

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.​
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,​

It requires an act of God, and an act by us to know the truth, and reality of God.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
The reason you say this is because you can't see how atheists think the evidence is lacking, right? So you have to rationalise as best you can, but in the end for atheists, it comes down to evidence and logic.
I say that because the bible says that.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I think it's their fallen sinful nature that keeps them from believing.

It's their unbelief that condemns them, as unbelief is a causation loop; a curse that is inescapable without the intervention of God on their behalf.

Unless God intervenes...they will remain unbelievers.

Absolutely.

So, how did we go from a unbeliever to a believer, what did God do you make that occur?
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
It's their unbelief that condemns them, as unbelief is a causation loop; a curse that is inescapable without the intervention of God on their behalf.



Absolutely.

So, how did we go from a unbeliever to a believer, what did God do you make that occur?
Eph 2 talks a little bit about it.

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Well, what did God tell Adam about eating the fruit?

In the day you eat thereof, dying, you shall die.

We further read in Romans that the wages of sin is death.

So, it seem that the reason they--- indeed, we did not know until he made himself known to us--- cannot know, is because their sin has killed the only means which God gave to us all, cutting them off from him.

As all have sinned, all are cut off, until he makes us spiritually alive.
As Paul told the Ephesians----

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.​
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,​

It requires an act of God, and an act by us to know the truth, and reality of God.

Absolutely. So, what is it that knowing beings do to make the truth and reality known them?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Eph 2 talks a little bit about it.

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.b 4Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Everything we receive from God we receive from Him in the form of a belief, in and with our believing mind's. So, what has to occur in His reality, before the His truth is made known to us?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Absolutely. So, what is it that knowing beings do to make the truth and reality known them?
Call on his name, and believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead.
As Paul told the Romans.

Joel (2:32) would imply in his statement that calling on His name would include, as a previous choice, that they believe he is, and rewards those who diligently seek him.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Ah, right.

Is it possible, rightly or wrongly, to think the evidence for God is lacking?

It is always wrong to disbelieve that belief is capable of making the truth and reality known to you, given the fact that the truth and reality cannot be known to anyone in their unbelief or unbelieving mind.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Call on his name, and believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead.
As Paul told the Romans.

Joel (2:32) would imply in his statement that calling on His name would include, as a previous choice, that they believe he is, and rewards those who diligently seek him.
Worked for me. :) Amen
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
A question from personal incredulity.

But back to the point. As I asked, is it possible, rightly or wrongly, to think the evidence for God is lacking?
You were just presented with some evidence that God exist....makes things.

Here's more...how did a completely natural process make this?
.

The evidence for God is not lacking.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
What has that to do with my question?

Right. What has this to do with my question?

Try again. Is it possible, rightly or wrongly, to think the evidence for God is lacking?
Yes. If you disbelieve in the truth and reality of God, then the truth and reality is unknowable to you, because all knowledge of truth and reality is only knowable in and with a believing mind.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Yes. If you disbelieve in the truth and reality of God, then the truth and reality is unknowable to you, because all knowledge of truth and reality is only knowable in and with a believing mind.
I don't think that answers my question, but just to make sure could you put your post in the form of a syllogism?
 

J regia

Well-known member
Yes. If you disbelieve in the truth and reality of God, then the truth and reality is unknowable to you, because all knowledge of truth and reality is only knowable in and with a believing mind.
IOW gods don't exist if you believe they don't exist.
 
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