Why can't unbelievers know the truth and reality of God.

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
It is true because the truth and reality cannot be known to exist or be experienced in any other way or place but in a believing mind. We aren't talking about some ambiguous way or obscure place here, we are supposed to be discussing the truth and reality. And you cannot even show how it is knowable outside of a believing mind. And that's not evidence of the truth and reality being the product of a believing mind?
This just does not make sense to anyone but you dude - I am sorry. But you keep arguing that we can only know things in our minds therefore God. Its nonsensical.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Cowardly evasion.

Show us that truth exists outside of the human mind.
The moon exists outside of the human mind. We understand and know reality with out minds and our senses. But the moon's existence is not dependent on the human mind.

This is madness. And does zero to prove Jesus rose from the dead and Christianity is real.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
The moon exists outside of the human mind. We understand and know reality with out minds and our senses. But the moon's existence is not dependent on the human mind.

This is madness. And does zero to prove Jesus rose from the dead and Christianity is real.
Part of me rebels at the idea of turning a Tercon thread into a sincere discussion of anything. With that said, I can't see how the bolded sentence above could possibly be true. If you were saying something like reality exists independently of our minds and senses, yes - I'd agree completely. However, we definitely can NOT understand that reality without our minds and senses.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
This just does not make sense to anyone but you dude - I am sorry. But you keep arguing that we can only know things in our minds therefore God. Its nonsensical.
I don't see a valid criticism, just your scoffing. If you can't refute it; then stop pretending you did silly.

The moon exists outside of the human mind.

How do you know "the moon exists outside of the" a believing mind, when the only way and place you know it to exist is in and with your believing mind silly? If you can't know anything without a believing mind, then how do you know anything can exist without a believing mind in order to give it a way and place in order to occur and exist? Even existence itself is only knowable in and with a believing mind.

We understand and know reality with out minds and our senses. But the moon's existence is not dependent on the human mind.

Strawman. I didn't say that the moon's existence is "dependent on the human mind". I say that everything's existence including the moon's is dependent on God's believing mind.

And explain just how YOU "understand and know reality with out minds" silly?

This is madness. And does zero to prove Jesus rose from the dead and Christianity is real.

Sure it does, Christ is truth incarnate and God reality. And the truth and reality cannot lie.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Part of me rebels at the idea of turning a Tercon thread into a sincere discussion of anything. With that said, I can't see how the bolded sentence above could possibly be true. If you were saying something like reality exists independently of our minds and senses, yes - I'd agree completely. However, we definitely can NOT understand that reality without our minds and senses.
I agree we understand reality in our minds. I do not agree that human minds are necessary for the moon to exist. I object to the causation. The moon exists if humans are alive or not.

Otherwise we have devolved into arguing Descartes's cogito, ergo sum and have left the apologetic defense of Christianity.

If God is real because cogito, ergo sum is all we can really know then shut this board down because this is folly :)
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
I don't see a valid criticism, just your scoffing. If you can't refute it; then stop pretending you did silly.
Can you prove the moon does not exist without a human mind? Can you prove that causation?

I agree with only way for humans to know anything is with out minds. However, it is madness to think that the existence of the moon is dependent on the minds of one species of primate on one of a trillion trillion worlds.

And if you can prove that the moon cannot exist without a human mind then explain how that proves God is real.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Part of me rebels at the idea of turning a Tercon thread into a sincere discussion of anything. With that said, I can't see how the bolded sentence above could possibly be true. If you were saying something like reality exists independently of our minds and senses, yes - I'd agree completely. However, we definitely can NOT understand that reality without our minds and senses.

These two statements are completely contradictory. You can't have it both ways. Do you want the truth or not?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I agree we understand reality in our minds. I do not agree that human minds are necessary for the moon to exist. I object to the causation. The moon exists if humans are alive or not.

Strawman. I didn't say that "human minds are necessary for the moon to exist". Rather the universes existence is dependent on God's believing mind for existence. And the logical truth, reality and even QM indicate this reality.

Otherwise we have devolved into arguing Descartes's cogito, ergo sum and have left the apologetic defense of Christianity.

If God is real because cogito, ergo sum is all we can really know then shut this board down because this is folly :)

How do you think the truth and reality is to be known to us, without or without a believing mind?
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Rather the universes existence is dependent on God's believing mind for existence.
Can you prove this using the moon as an example? How is the moon's existence dependent on either a human mind or God's mind?

You will need to prove God exists as part of your argument, of course.
How do you think the truth and reality is to be known to us, without or without a believing mind?
The truth is known to humans with our believing minds. Existence is not dependent on our believing minds. If you think the moon's existence is dependent on human minds then you have left all rational discussion re: the existence of God and drifted into an academic, philosophical discussion on cogito, ergo sum.

And that is not interesting to me :)
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Can the truth or reality be known to exist without or outside of a believing mind?
There's that ambiguity again. Are you asking about the location of truth and reality? Or are you asking about the location of our knowledge of truth and reality? Because, as has been endlessly pointed out to you, these are two very different questions, and while you may think they have the same answer, no-one else does.

Everyone who believes that God is truth incarnate and reality. And if you don't believe God is truth and reality, then you are a unbeliever.
Given that absolutely no-one agrees with you, it is not reasonable to pretend you speak for anyone other than yourself.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I think it's their fallen sinful nature that keeps them from believing.

Unless God intervenes...they will remain unbelievers.
We don't have a "Fallen, Sinful" nature. We have a HUMAN nature same as Adam, Eve, and Jesus had (Jesus was tempted like WE ARE, and the mechanism for that is in James 1). Put simply the FLESH can't comprehend the things of the Spirit, but that which is Born of the SPirit can see and understand.

NOBODY comes to Christ except they be DRAWN to Him by God.

Simple as that.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
We don't have a "Fallen, Sinful" nature. We have a HUMAN nature same as Adam, Eve, and Jesus had (Jesus was tempted like WE ARE, and the mechanism for that is in James 1). Put simply the FLESH can't comprehend the things of the Spirit, but that which is Born of the SPirit can see and understand.

NOBODY comes to Christ except they be DRAWN to Him by God.

Simple as that.
To sum it up quickly and briefly...

I would say the human nature is now a fallen nature.

Adam and Eve were created “very good”...but they were disobedient and fell. All of Adams progeny now suffers from the fall.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
To sum it up quickly and briefly...

I would say the human nature is now a fallen nature.

Adam and Eve were created “very good”...but they were disobedient and fell. All of Adams progeny now suffers from the fall.
TWO things were cursed after A&E's sin. The GROUND, and the Serpent. A&E were never "Cursed", and their HUMAN NATURE never changed. They were "Drawn away of their OWN LUST, and Enticed" same as us (James 1). Their environment did change, however, and the creation was made subject to "Vanity" (negative entropy) Rom 8:20.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
TWO things were cursed after A&E's sin. The GROUND, and the Serpent. A&E were never "Cursed", and their HUMAN NATURE never changed. They were "Drawn away of their OWN LUST, and Enticed" same as us (James 1). Their environment did change, however, and the creation was made subject to "Vanity" (negative entropy) Rom 8:20.
Changes occurred

Their eyes were opened, and they knew that they were naked.
they hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God
increase your pain in childbirth
desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
return to the ground
 

Tercon

Well-known member
They are not even remotely contradictory, nor have you shown them to be.

Part of me rebels at the idea of turning a Tercon thread into a sincere discussion of anything. With that said, I can't see how the bolded sentence above could possibly be true. If you were saying something like reality exists independently of our minds and senses, yes - I'd agree completely. However, we definitely can NOT understand that reality without our minds and senses.


If "reality exists independently of our minds" and "we definitely can NOT understand that reality without our mind", then how are we to know and "understand that reality" "independently of our minds" silly? Like get a grip man.
 
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Tercon

Well-known member
There's that ambiguity again. Are you asking about the location of truth and reality? Or are you asking about the location of our knowledge of truth and reality? Because, as has been endlessly pointed out to you, these are two very different questions, and while you may think they have the same answer, no-one else does.

Given that absolutely no-one agrees with you, it is not reasonable to pretend you speak for anyone other than yourself.

There's no ambiguity in regards to the ONLY way and place the truth and reality is known to occur. That ambiguity and ignorance just resides in your unbelieving mind.

And all believers believe in the truth and reality of God. Some just don't know the particulars.
 
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