Why churches today disagree in doctrine

I suppose you believe similar things to Matthew 24:29 have NEVER occurred before...
The Matt 24 prophecy strictly denotes the end times, but interwoven into the narrative is a deference to the annihilation of the redundant ex-theocracy of physical Israel, which I credit as just the first major event that will occur in fulfillment of the end times prophecy. The prophecy clearly extends over a long time, because it includes phrases such as Matt 24:7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains." This is not a prophecy that was due for final fulfillment in AD70. It's just not possible.

What the prophecy is saying is that the destructions wrought will be unmistakable, unparalleled, and will require people to flee from one place to another. Undoubtedly the fulfilment of the prophecy was due to commence with the destruction of Israel, but it will only culminate in the "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." I know that "coming on the clouds" is OT figurative language for any judgement of God, but one day it will have a literal fulfillment in the second physical return of Jesus, as he himself predicts elsewhere. And that will be a terrible day for all the inhabitants of the earth, excepting the vestiges of the remnant church.
 
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No, of course I can't show you where the event TOOK PLACE. The event was still future to when the Scriptures were written. But the judgement coming has always been expressed as a near, nigh, at hand, shortly come to pass, a very very little, etc. event. This Scriptural fact you deny.

The destruction of the Old Covenant economy circa 70AD fits the Scriptures very well.
I'm not denying that judgement was near for Israel. I'm just saying that AD70 was only the first end-times prophecy fulfilment. The historicist interpretation of the book of Revelation, e.g. see Barnes Commentary on Relevation for a good example of the historicist method, envisages the judgements of God as extending throughout the rest of human history, and who can deny that? Actually there is a really good fit between the language of Revelation and world events: see especially the language of Rev 9 which describes the hordes of Mahomet, and the inroads of Islam.
 
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If you agree with me on this passage (while most would not), then you too realize the 1st century 2nd Coming. Therefore, I don't understand your arguments saying the Gospel had NOT gone to the individuals (world, nations, creature, earth) Christ mentioned, which allows for the "time of the end" to occur within that 1st century:

(Mat 24:14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.​
The same point I made in respect of Rom 16:26 also applies to Rom 10:18 and the Isaiah prophecy, which should be translated per the KJV i.e.

"But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

and not per the NIV "Their voice has gone out into all the earth,their words to the ends of the world.”

Sorry for my early mistake in misinterpreting this passage. It always pays to look at the Greek, which I omitted to do earlier.

For here again, the NIV has substituted the past tense for the aorist tense, which the KJV reflects. "Went out" is properly without denotation of time. There nothing in Rom 10:18 to suggestion any completion of the "going out." Rather it only signifies the time of the "going out" won't last forever. It is a bounded time.

When is the end of the "bounded time?" When God decrees the end. So the theocracy of Israel became the first example where God decreed the end of the bounded time for the "going out" of the word.

God decided that the time for the "word going out," at least to Jerusalem, had been fulfilled by AD70, and that Jerusalem's time was up. Hence the AD70 judgement on Jerusalem, and later subsequent judgements on Israel, because ultimately, the AD70 event was only the first of a number of judgements on Israel in the first and second centuries, where the Romans destroyed Israel entirely. This "time being up" for theocratic Israel is a presage that one day, the time will be up for the rest of the world: then will be the second coming.
 
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The Matt 24 prophecy strictly denotes the end times, but interwoven into the narrative is a deference to the annihilation of the redundant ex-theocracy of physical Israel, which I credit as just the first major event that will occur in fulfillment of the end times prophecy. The prophecy clearly extends over a long time, because it includes phrases such as Matt 24:7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains." This is not a prophecy that was due for final fulfillment in AD70. It's just not possible.

What the prophecy is saying is that the destructions wrought will be unmistakable, unparalleled, and will require people to flee from one place to another. Undoubtedly the fulfilment of the prophecy was due to commence with the destruction of Israel, but it will only culminate in the "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." I know that "coming on the clouds" is OT figurative language for any judgement of God, but one day it will have a literal fulfillment in the second physical return of Jesus, as he himself predicts elsewhere. And that will be a terrible day for all the inhabitants of the earth, excepting the vestiges of the remnant church.
Sorry, but you are discussing a theological view, not the actual Scriptures you believe make up your view - and there is quite a difference. But at least you are civil and are trying. I appreciate it very much. People normally react instead of thinking.

"The Matt 24 prophecy strictly denotes the end times, but interwoven into the narrative is a deference to the annihilation of the redundant ex-theocracy of physical Israel" Definitely agreed.

"which I credit as just the first major event that will occur in fulfillment of the end times prophecy" This is where I ask for Scripture.

"The prophecy clearly extends over a long time, because it includes phrases such as Matt 24:7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places" I understand this as the nations (ethnos) and kingdoms of Israel. And there were famines and earthquakes in the 1st century.

(Act 11:27) And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.​
(Act 11:28) And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.​
(Act 11:29) Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:​
(Act 11:30) Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.​

(Mat 27:54) Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.​
(Mat 28:2) And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.​
(Act 16:26) And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.​

"This is not a prophecy that was due for final fulfillment in AD70. It's just not possible." Not possible with a wooden literalism of time of the end events. Please ask which "things" you consider impossible. I will attempt an explanation using only Scripture (the way it is supposed to be done). You certainly will be allowed to express your interpretation of the verses I bring forth.
 
The Matt 24 prophecy strictly denotes the end times, but interwoven into the narrative is a deference to the annihilation of the redundant ex-theocracy of physical Israel, which I credit as just the first major event that will occur in fulfillment of the end times prophecy. The prophecy clearly extends over a long time, because it includes phrases such as Matt 24:7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains." This is not a prophecy that was due for final fulfillment in AD70. It's just not possible.

What the prophecy is saying is that the destructions wrought will be unmistakable, unparalleled, and will require people to flee from one place to another. Undoubtedly the fulfilment of the prophecy was due to commence with the destruction of Israel, but it will only culminate in the "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." I know that "coming on the clouds" is OT figurative language for any judgement of God, but one day it will have a literal fulfillment in the second physical return of Jesus, as he himself predicts elsewhere. And that will be a terrible day for all the inhabitants of the earth, excepting the vestiges of the remnant church.
To address your last paragraph above, I have included a post I recently added to my "Elements shall melt with fervent heat" thread:

I would like to add this portion to clarify the silliness of wooden literalism often used in 2 Peter 3 and other various portions of Scripture.

If using a wooden literalism to see total annihilation of our universe and planet in 2 Peter 3, how could anyone be alive after such an obliteration? In Revelation, many survive after stars (plural) fall to earth – which, if using a wooden literalism, is impossible.

(Rev 6:13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.​
(Rev 6:14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​
(Rev 6:15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;​

Sounds like many are still alive in an impossible event.

(Rev 12:4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.​

Now, we have one third part of the stars in heaven cascading down to the earth. That is a whole lot of stars!! Yet, Revelation continues for ten more chapters…

Our sun is a relatively small star. If stars (plural) fell towards Earth, our planet would vaporize before the stars could make contact – all life would be destroyed. This should be obvious if using a wooden literalism. This is why these wooden literalists change “stars” to “meteorites.” Such silliness. Why not change “stars” from a celestial object way out in space to the BIBLICAL meaning? Do a study on “stars” and you will see what I mean.
 
I'm not denying that judgement was near for Israel. I'm just saying that AD70 was only the first end-times prophecy fulfilment. The historicist interpretation of the book of Revelation, e.g. see Barnes Commentary on Relevation for a good example of the historicist method, envisages the judgements of God as extending throughout the rest of human history, and who can deny that? Actually there is a really good fit between the language of Revelation and world events: see especially the language of Rev 9 which describes the hordes of Mahomet, and the inroads of Islam.
"The historicist interpretation of the book of Revelation, e.g. see Barnes Commentary on Relevation for a good example of the historicist method, envisages the judgements of God as extending throughout the rest of human history, and who can deny that?"

Now this is funny. Not what you said. Yesterday, I was probably entering a thread in these forums. I wanted to use the word "relevance" but I typed it as "revelance" interchanging the "l" with the "v." You did the same thing for "Revelation." You typed "Relevation." Okay back to the good stuff.

Barnes Commentary, an individual I respect for his analysis of many passages, but he just parrots the majority view concerning "time of the end," not "the end of time" events. His commentary is uninspired and we all know this. As for "who can deny this?" I can, and I do it with Scripture.

I am unable to address uninspired opinions even if they are the truth. Our discussion must remain with the Scriptures. If one sees Islam in Rev 9, one needs to show us from the verses how it is you see Islam. That's all there is to it.
 
The same point I made in respect of Rom 16:26 also applies to Rom 10:18 and the Isaiah prophecy, which should be translated per the KJV i.e.

"But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

and not per the NIV "Their voice has gone out into all the earth,their words to the ends of the world.”

Sorry for my early mistake in misinterpreting this passage. It always pays to look at the Greek, which I omitted to do earlier.

For here again, the NIV has substituted the past tense for the aorist tense, which the KJV reflects. "Went out" is properly without denotation of time. There nothing in Rom 10:18 to suggestion any completion of the "going out." Rather it only signifies the time of the "going out" won't last forever. It is a bounded time.

When is the end of the "bounded time?" When God decrees the end. So the theocracy of Israel became the first example where God decreed the end of the bounded time for the "going out" of the word.

God decided that the time for the "word going out," at least to Jerusalem, had been fulfilled by AD70, and that Jerusalem's time was up. Hence the AD70 judgement on Jerusalem, and later subsequent judgements on Israel, because ultimately, the AD70 event was only the first of a number of judgements on Israel in the first and second centuries, where the Romans destroyed Israel entirely. This "time being up" for theocratic Israel is a presage that one day, the time will be up for the rest of the world: then will be the second coming.
The NIV is a terrible translation, IMO.

People do not properly understand what happened circa 70AD. Jerusalem was destroyed. The temple was destroyed. Hundreds of thousands of Old Covenant Christ Hating Jews were killed. Lots went into slavery. Newspapers and today's world events have nothing to do with theology. Ask Edgar C. Whisenant to see what I mean.

The whole New Testament addresses the persecution upon Christ's church by THE 1ST CENTURY CHRIST HATING OLD COVENANT JEWISH UNBELIEVERS:

(Matthew 23:34-36, Acts 8:3, Acts 9:23, Acts 13:45, Acts 13:50, Acts 14:2, Acts 14:19, Acts 17:5, Acts 17:13, Acts 18:12, Acts 18:17, Acts 20:3, Acts 20:19, Acts 21:11, Acts 21:27, Acts 22:19, Acts 22:30, Acts 23:12, Acts 23:27, Acts 24:27, Acts 25:2, Acts 25:7, Acts 25:24, Acts 26:2, Acts 26:7, Acts 26:21, 2 Corinthians 11:26, Gal 4:29, Philippians 3:6, 1 Thessalonians 2:14)​
Yet, modern day prophecy says it will be the world persecuting these Old Covenant Jews???? Where do they get this idea from? Where does it say IN THE NEW TESTAMENT where the temple is to be rebuilt for all these Old Covenant Jews to be practicing Judaism. IT IS ALL GONE. Why on earth do they wish judgement to fall upon individuals who had nothing to do with the crucifixion of Christ or the persecuting of Christ's church?

Today's eschatology does not match the New Testament's account.
 
I want to know why all the time statements indicating a 1st century fulfillment are either explained away or lost in the translation (Hebrews 10:37 as just one example).

I want to know why the CLEAR TIMEFRAME of Revelation is completely ignored.

It seems time and audience relevance have no part in today's hermeneutics, despite these two very important factors.

The near, at hand, shortly to come to pass, drawing nigh Coming of the Lord WAS TRUE, NOT FALSE.
 
I want to know why all the time statements indicating a 1st century fulfillment are either explained away or lost in the translation (Hebrews 10:37 as just one example).

I want to know why the CLEAR TIMEFRAME of Revelation is completely ignored.

It seems time and audience relevance have no part in today's hermeneutics, despite these two very important factors.

The near, at hand, shortly to come to pass, drawing nigh Coming of the Lord WAS TRUE, NOT FALSE.
The fact that Jesus Christ has not returned yet is obvious to everyone but preterists.
 
Interesting that no one so far has addressed the original post... It is quite obvious that there are several different doctrines among today's Churchianity.

Anyway, to me the 1st century context of the 2nd Coming is obvious, especially when considering Paul, Silvanus and Timothy's testimony in 2 Thessalonians 1:4-9. Paul's second letter was written during a time of great persecution by the Christ hating unbelieving Jews:

(2Th 1:4) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:​
(2Th 1:5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:​

Paul tells that 1st century church that God would recompense tribulation to those 1st century persecutors:

(2Th 1:6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;​

Paul tells those 1st century Christians (saved Jews) that they would receive REST from their persecutions when? Well according to every commentator I have read, they ALL exegete the passages 2 Thess 1:7-9 as the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. I agree. Paul is not speaking about a time when they die (likely due to presecution), He is speaking about REST FROM THEIR PERSECUTORS. These persecuting Old Covenant Christ Hating Jewish Unbelievers would be called back to Jerusalem to defend against the Roman onslaught...where, they too, would be slaughtered.

(2Th 1:7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
(2Th 1:8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(2Th 1:9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

The them are the 1st century Christ Hating Old Covenant Jewish Unbelievers.

I just cannot understand why people do not change their theology to match that of Scripture. Nowadays, it is let's change the Scripture to match our theology.

If someone can show me from the New Testament Scriptures that shows very clearly that it was not the 1st century Jewish Unbelievers persecuting the church, I am open to see what you have.
 
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To address your last paragraph above, I have included a post I recently added to my "Elements shall melt with fervent heat" thread:

I would like to add this portion to clarify the silliness of wooden literalism often used in 2 Peter 3 and other various portions of Scripture.

If using a wooden literalism to see total annihilation of our universe and planet in 2 Peter 3, how could anyone be alive after such an obliteration? In Revelation, many survive after stars (plural) fall to earth – which, if using a wooden literalism, is impossible.

(Rev 6:13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.​
(Rev 6:14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​
(Rev 6:15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;​

Sounds like many are still alive in an impossible event.

(Rev 12:4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.​
Revelation is figurative. Falling stars are symbolic. But the earth being destroyed by fire and the end of the world in 2 Pet 3:10 and in Matt 24 isn't symbolic. There is little symbolism that I can detect in 2 Pet or Matt 24, except for "coming on the clouds" which is well known symbolism for a visitation of God.

And if the world wasn't going to be destroyed by fire, and the human race end, then what reason for the New heavens and the New earth?

Now, we have one third part of the stars in heaven cascading down to the earth. That is a whole lot of stars!! Yet, Revelation continues for ten more chapters…

Our sun is a relatively small star. If stars (plural) fell towards Earth, our planet would vaporize before the stars could make contact – all life would be destroyed. This should be obvious if using a wooden literalism. This is why these wooden literalists change “stars” to “meteorites.” Such silliness. Why not change “stars” from a celestial object way out in space to the BIBLICAL meaning? Do a study on “stars” and you will see what I mean.
You're really not dealing with Matt 24 and 2 Pet 3, are you?

Revelation is a different book, and talks about a series of judgements in highly figurative language, whose meaning we can glean by reference to the Old Testament.
 
Revelation is figurative. Falling stars are symbolic. But the earth being destroyed by fire and the end of the world in 2 Pet 3:10 and in Matt 24 isn't symbolic. There is little symbolism that I can detect in 2 Pet or Matt 24, except for "coming on the clouds" which is well known symbolism for a visitation of God.

And if the world wasn't going to be destroyed by fire, and the human race end, then what reason for the New heavens and the New earth?


You're really not dealing with Matt 24 and 2 Pet 3, are you?

Revelation is a different book, and talks about a series of judgements in highly figurative language, whose meaning we can glean by reference to the Old Testament.

“Revelation is figurative. Falling stars are symbolic. But the earth being destroyed by fire and the end of the world in 2 Pet 3:10 and in Matt 24 isn't symbolic. There is little symbolism that I can detect in 2 Pet or Matt 24, except for "coming on the clouds" which is well known symbolism for a visitation of God.”​

Not all of Revelation is figurative. There is no doubt the Hebrew poeticism is everywhere. Falling stars are symbolic of what? But “the earth being destroyed by fire and the end of the world in 2 Pet 3:10…isn’t symbolic” I’m sorry, but where is the “end of the world” stated in 2 Peter 3:10? It is assumed to be because of what happens to the elements and heavens and earth.

If only today’s individuals could think like those in the first century. They had no knowledge as elements being “building blocks” of a universe, a planet, or anything celestial in space. 2 Peter 3 is not talking about the demise of our planet and heavens and earth.

Talk to people who believe themselves to be Jews today, especially the higher-ups. Ask them what heaven and earth means within their limited scope of Judaism (since the temple has been destroyed for almost 2,000 years).

I know it will be impossible for you and others to think of the “heavens and earth” in regard to the Old Covenant. The “elements” are considered by many to be the utensils involved in temple worship. It may be possible since it is connected directly with the temple which was destroyed. Paul’s version of the elements is quite different from what today’s exegetes say. What Paul said should be important, because Peter quotes Paul:

(2Pe 3:15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
(2Pe 3:16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

DispyLanders are well-advised to use Paul’s Scripture to define the meaning of “elements” in order to adhere to their “first mention” policy. 2 Peter was written after what Paul says. I use www.e-sword.net for all my Bible searches. It is free for download. There are hundreds of resources…

Anyway, if you download it, make sure to download a bunch of Greek Bibles and some with Strong’s numbers. Just choose the Bible version you want to search, in this case Greek NT TR+. Enter in the search area “G4747” hit enter and away you go. Read the context and you will find it concerns the Old Covenant way of thinking. It is not me saying it; it is inspired Paul. We should listen, don’t you think?

The New Heavens and earth, “wherein dwelleth righteousness” is the kingdom of God (or Heaven) for those Jews who call upon their Messiah to be saved. Christ’s entire mission was to save all of Israel, unfortunately, many Jews did not believe Christ, would not be saved, and would be then judged severely at the near, nigh, shortly come to pass, very very little arriving of the Second Coming. It is very similar to the “new creature:”

(2Co 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

The revelation passage which follows shortly is nothing more than a symbolic representation of the church, the bride, the New heavens and earth, the New Jerusalem (Paul describes this as the “Jerusalem which is above” in Galations:

(Gal 4:25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.​

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.​

One should be able to see the direct contrast with the “Jerusalem which now is” and the Jerusalem which is above.”

Here is the Revelation passage:

(Rev 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​
(Rev 21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.​
(Rev 21:3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​
(Rev 21:5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

Revelation 21:3 is the fulfillment (expressed again – see 2 Cor 6:16) from Ezekiel 37:23:

(Eze 37:23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

(2Co 6:16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Revelation 21:4 fulfills a prophecy of Isaiah’s. The prophecy was given to the nation of Israel. That point is very important:

(Isa 25:8) He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
(Isa 25:9) And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.​

The “death” which is swallowed in victory is NOT physical death; it is spiritual death – the one the Jews got saved FROM. “Christians” today follow this line of reasoning.

I will quickly end with your last quote of:

“Revelation is a different book, and talks about a series of judgements in highly figurative language, whose meaning we can glean by reference to the Old Testament.”​

Revelation is definitely a different book than the rest of the New Testament, but not so different than many portions of Isaiah or Ezekiel, plus a bunch more. This, I believe, is a direct result of all the OT allusions and quotes.

I look at Revelation as John’s Olivet Discourse. As mentioned before, Revelation is sandwiched in between two sections of very clear unfigurative, unsymbolic, unapocalyptic, TIME STATEMENTS. These are completely ignored in order to keep their future 2nd Coming hopes alive.

I will list them again:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.​

[99.8% of REVELATION]​

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.​
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.​

Don’t forget to “Please ask which "things" you consider impossible. I will attempt an explanation using only Scripture (the way it is supposed to be done). You certainly will be allowed to express your interpretation of the verses I bring forth.
 
Not all of Revelation is figurative. There is no doubt the Hebrew poeticism is everywhere. Falling stars are symbolic of what? But “the earth being destroyed by fire and the end of the world in 2 Pet 3:10…isn’t symbolic” I’m sorry, but where is the “end of the world” stated in 2 Peter 3:10? It is assumed to be because of what happens to the elements and heavens and earth.
The end of the "elements" is the end of the word, as you yourself point out, as it infers the end of the established order.

I look at Revelation as John’s Olivet Discourse. As mentioned before, Revelation is sandwiched in between two sections of very clear unfigurative, unsymbolic, unapocalyptic, TIME STATEMENTS. These are completely ignored in order to keep their future 2nd Coming hopes alive.
There are no time statements in Revelation except for the commencement of the judgements of God, which begin in a short time.

I will list them again:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​
That the beginning of the judgements "shortly come to pass."

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.​

[99.8% of REVELATION]​

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.​
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.​
That is the end times are at hand.

Don’t forget to “Please ask which "things" you consider impossible. I will attempt an explanation using only Scripture (the way it is supposed to be done). You certainly will be allowed to express your interpretation of the verses I bring forth.
You have 1000 years in Rev 20. You have famines, earthquakes, wars in Matt 24:6-8.

And as for 2 Thess 2: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Who exactly is this lawless one who has been and gone, according to you? Don't tell me it was Nero, who performed no signs or wonders.
 
The end of the "elements" is the end of the word, as you yourself point out, as it infers the end of the established order.


There are no time statements in Revelation except for the commencement of the judgements of God, which begin in a short time.


That the beginning of the judgements "shortly come to pass."


That is the end times are at hand.


You have 1000 years in Rev 20. You have famines, earthquakes, wars in Matt 24:6-8.

And as for 2 Thess 2: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Who exactly is this lawless one who has been and gone, according to you? Don't tell me it was Nero, who performed no signs or wonders.

Well, I am not an expert in that area, but I will look into it. I am always willing to learn more. Today I discovered Hebrew 6:4-6. I posted a thread in "Theology Questions" called "Could the recently saved Jews from the first century lose their salvation," or something very similar to that.

BTW, your "1000 years" is not literal, by any means.

If there are any Scriptural experts out there, please chime in on the "1,000 years" idea.

If I were to ask you what was meant by 2 Peter 3:8's (quotation of Psalm 90:4), could I not also biblically say that your "1,000 years" represented only one day? It is foolishness like this that messes everyone up.
 
There are no time statements in Revelation except for the commencement of the judgements of God, which begin in a short time.
Really?

What do you call this? Chopped liver?

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.​

[99.8% of REVELATION]​

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.​
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.​

There is not one single word mentioning your specific judgement within those VERY CLEAR time statements.

Yes, the book of Revelation was full of judgement. Those Christ hating Jewish unbelievers required it. The judgements occur within those VERY CLEAR time statements.

I am absolutely amazed how "Christians" everywhere IGNORE this simple fact. Inspired John said it, I didn't.
 
The end of the "elements" is the end of the world, as you yourself point out, as it infers the end of the established order.

I do not point out the end of this world, if world is to be used as PLANET.

But you are right, it does reflect the end "of the established order."

The question is what is the established order? If you read thru Paul's understanding of the elements (Strong's G4747) you would have no trouble determining the "established order" that was coming to an end.

But most people will not do the study. They would much rather prefer going to some website of their own particular choosing to see what they believe. Idiots.
 
Well, I am not an expert in that area, but I will look into it. I am always willing to learn more. Today I discovered Hebrew 6:4-6. I posted a thread in "Theology Questions" called "Could the recently saved Jews from the first century lose their salvation," or something very similar to that.
I'll look at that.

BTW, your "1000 years" is not literal, by any means.

If there are any Scriptural experts out there, please chime in on the "1,000 years" idea.
1000 years to me means an indeterminate length of time of very long duration.

If I were to ask you what was meant by 2 Peter 3:8's (quotation of Psalm 90:4), could I not also biblically say that your "1,000 years" represented only one day? It is foolishness like this that messes everyone up.
You may not say that "1,000 years represents only one human day" in the context of Revelation because, first, your scripture quotation objectively signifies only "1000 human years = one God-day" which doesn't really have any application to the prophecy in Revelation.

Secondly, even if you replaced the 1000 human years of Rev by "one day in the sight of God" we would still interpret, as per the "God days" in Genesis chp. 1, "a very long time."

Indeed there is nothing to inhibit the 1000 years of Revelation amounting to 10,000 or even 100,000 years of elapsed human time.
 
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1000 years to me means an indeterminate length of time of very long duration.


You may not say that "1,000 years represents only one human day" in the context of Revelation because, first, your scripture quotation objectively signifies only "1000 human years = one God-day" which doesn't really have any application to the prophecy in Revelation.

Secondly, even if you replaced the 1000 human years of Rev by "one day in the sight of God" we would still interpret, as per the "God days" in Genesis chp. 1, "a very long time."

Indeed there is nothing to inhibit the 1000 years of Revelation amounting to 10,000 or even 100,000 years of elapsed human time.
My view is a bit different. I look upon 1,000 as meaning perfection. For example, in Revelation 7, EXACTLY twelve thousand are saved from all of the twelve tribes of Israel:

(Rev 7:4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

(Rev 7:5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
(Rev 7:6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
(Rev 7:7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
(Rev 7:8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

No way, there was exactly that number saved from each tribe. The point is that they had been saved thru Christ - perfection. The allusion of the number twelve is interesting - twelve Jewish Apostles to the twelve tribes of Israel. It may have been that each apostle was from a different tribe.

No one lived to be a 1,000 years old...almost, but not quite. It isn't really a popular subject
 
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