Why did believers have to wait in the bosom of Abraham instead of going to God's presence immediately?

If it were a literal truth relevant to all humans everywhere, it starts exactly like the parable that precedes it (compare Luke 16:1 to Luke 16:19) which should raise suspicions that it isn't a literal truth, and it wouldn't be aimed at a very specific group of people (who loved money Luke 16:14).

If it is a literal truth relevant to all humans everywhere, Luke 16 is not the place to record this particular truth.
The event Jesus described was not a parable. Those in parables are not named like Abraham and Lazarus were by Jesus.
 
Your interpretation of the passage is impossible to follow just by looking at the scripture. Somewhere you have brought in outside data to interpret the Bible

What outside data did I bring in?

It was well known to all parties that Annas had 5 sons, and that Caiaphas was his son in law. And they all were high priests. You can even go to the wikipedia page for Annas and see for yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annas

And as I read the book of Acts, these people were the ones that did not listen though one rose from the dead.
 
Fairly far outside of orthodoxy.

True. But scripturally on the mark.


I would guess that you don't accept the standard interpretation of "took captivity captive"

The phrase "took captivity captive" is a quotation from the song of Deborah in Judges 5 and also Psalm 68.

My interpretation is, like the events in Judges, Jesus set a group of people free from what was oppressing them. I couldn't tell you what the orthodoxy position is.
 
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This may have been kicked around already, but I am interested to hear people's ideas from scripture about it.
It occurred to me that when a believer died, prior to the resurrection, they could not go to be in God's presence because they had not yet been indwelt by Christ.
A person who did not have Christ indwelling them, would not be able to live in God's presence but would be destroyed.
If this is true, then it would also mean that when Jesus descended and brought up with Him those who had been captive in Abraham's bosom, those believers would have to have been, during that process, indwelt by Christ so they could stand face to face with the Father.

Other than the scriptures I am alluding to, I don't know off hand what else I might add scripturally, but I am interested to know what scriptures come to mind along with the accompanying thoughts.
Simple: NOBODY had been CLEANSED Of their SIN before Jesus' SIN OFFERING on Calvary then HEAVEN was unavailable for them. BUT there were people who had FAITH that God would make a way like He promised back in Genesis.

Old Testament folks who died in FAITH, apparently went to "Sheol" (the place of the DEAD) and were held in a place called "Abraham's Bosom" where they were comfortable while they WAITED for God's Provision. The parable of the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" indicates that communication between "Abraham's Bosom" and HELL was possible. The "Captivity" that Jesus led captive when he ascended were apparently the Faithful that had waited on him to open the way. "Christ doesn't "Indwell" us, but the Holy Spirit does ever since John 20:22.
 
Is this some rule that you just made up out of thin air and demand that Jesus obey?
Nope, show me from scripture that any parable that Jesus taught named any person. Abraham ,Lazarus , and the rich young ruler actually lived and were used as examples by Jesus.
 
Nope, show me from scripture that any parable that Jesus taught named any person. Abraham ,Lazarus , and the rich young ruler actually lived and were used as examples by Jesus.

You mean like when he mentions "God" in the parable of the Rich Fool - Luke 12:13-21, "Satan" and "Beazebub" in the parable of the Divided Kingdom - Matthew 12:24-30, or when he includes the audience in the parable of the Invited Guests - Luke 14:7-14.

May I ask, can you show me where it was stated that Jesus, Isaiah, Nathan, Ezekiel, the widow from Tekoa, Jotham, or God or whoever must follow this rule of yours. As I understand a parable, it is parabolic story to teach a lesson. And Jesus nailed it when he says:

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Somebody (actually two somebodies) did rise from the from the dead. That didn't convince Annas and his children, but rather it drove them to a more murderous path.


As is obvious, the two parables in the chapter are introduced the exact same way:

There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions"
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. "
 
You mean like when he mentions "God" in the parable of the Rich Fool - Luke 12:13-21, "Satan" and "Beazebub" in the parable of the Divided Kingdom - Matthew 12:24-30, or when he includes the audience in the parable of the Invited Guests - Luke 14:7-14.

May I ask, can you show me where it was stated that Jesus, Isaiah, Nathan, Ezekiel, the widow from Tekoa, Jotham, or God or whoever must follow this rule of yours. As I understand a parable, it is parabolic story to teach a lesson. And Jesus nailed it when he says:

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Somebody (actually two somebodies) did rise from the from the dead. That didn't convince Annas and his children, but rather it drove them to a more murderous path.


As is obvious, the two parables in the chapter are introduced the exact same way:

There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions"
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. "
I look for the truth in Jesus’ teachings not what I can dismiss by labeling it a parable.
 
What outside data did I bring in?

It was well known to all parties that Annas had 5 sons, and that Caiaphas was his son in law. And they all were high priests. You can even go to the wikipedia page for Annas and see for yourself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annas

And as I read the book of Acts, these people were the ones that did not listen though one rose from the dead.
hopefully Annas was listening
 
This may have been kicked around already, but I am interested to hear people's ideas from scripture about it.
It occurred to me that when a believer died, prior to the resurrection, they could not go to be in God's presence because they had not yet been indwelt by Christ.
A person who did not have Christ indwelling them, would not be able to live in God's presence but would be destroyed.
If this is true, then it would also mean that when Jesus descended and brought up with Him those who had been captive in Abraham's bosom, those believers would have to have been, during that process, indwelt by Christ so they could stand face to face with the Father.

Other than the scriptures I am alluding to, I don't know off hand what else I might add scripturally, but I am interested to know what scriptures come to mind along with the accompanying thoughts.
I agree mostly. I see that those who were promised Salvation in Christ were waiting for Him to come, live and die on their behalf. They were waiting to be justified by the blood of Christ on Calvary.

Hebrews 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

You'll notice also in the Gospels that the veil was torn from top to bottom, not bottom to top. This signified it was God's work and not man. There was also earthquakes which opened the tombs of the Saints in Christ. Then, after Christ rose, these Saints arose as well.

Matthew 27
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Just like Israel would wait for the High Priest to come out of the Holiest of Holies, knowing that God had accepted the spotless lamb on their behalf, so do we look to the resurrection for proof that Christ is the spotless lamb, who entered in the Holiest of Holies and returned to save His people.
 
I agree mostly. I see that those who were promised Salvation in Christ were waiting for Him to come, live and die on their behalf. They were waiting to be justified by the blood of Christ on Calvary.

Hebrews 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

You'll notice also in the Gospels that the veil was torn from top to bottom, not bottom to top. This signified it was God's work and not man. There was also earthquakes which opened the tombs of the Saints in Christ. Then, after Christ rose, these Saints arose as well.

Matthew 27
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Just like Israel would wait for the High Priest to come out of the Holiest of Holies, knowing that God had accepted the spotless lamb on their behalf, so do we look to the resurrection for proof that Christ is the spotless lamb, who entered in the Holiest of Holies and returned to save His people.
That all sounds good
 
Ok, that sounds like you are agreeing generally to what i am saying. And what about Enoch and Elijah? Where did they go?
Not heaven. God's Justice is consistent. They went to Abraham's side, just like King Saul and his sons went to Abraham's side the day in battle Samuel told Saul he was to die.

It says Enoch was simply "no more." Elijah was lifted up for angels to see in celebration (like a Macy's Day parade) before God took his soul to Paradise below the earth.
 
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After their death,
  • Jesus rose from the dead and rules from heaven. (the first fruits 1 Cor 15:20)
  • Lazarus rose from the dead. I presume he died again and sleeps awaiting the resurrection. (1 Cor 15:23)
  • Abraham died and is buried, and also sleeps awaiting the resurrection. He has not received his reward (Hebrews 11:8-13)


"Sleeps" is when we become non body conscious. Yet God speaks in dreams. The soul of everyone now in heaven has no body yet. The Resurrection has not taken place as of yet. So? The term "sleep" refers to being conscious of God and whatever God wants to reveal to them as if in a very realistic dream.

That is why the believer is never referred to as dead, but 'sleeps.'. For its the unbeliever who is spiritually dead.
 
"Sleeps" is when we become non body conscious. Yet God speaks in dreams. The soul of everyone now in heaven has no body yet. The Resurrection has not taken place as of yet. So? The term "sleep" refers to being conscious of God and whatever God wants to reveal to them as if in a very realistic dream.

That is why the believer is never referred to as dead, but 'sleeps.'. For its the unbeliever who is spiritually dead.

May I ask, of what import is it if somebody's soul is in heaven and their ipad is in the landfill and their underwear is in the washing machine?

It says the person themselves was or is dead. Jesus the person died. Lazarus the person died. Abraham the person died. These other things you bring to the party like souls and whatnot (that aren't in the bible) are quite irrelevant.
 
May I ask, of what import is it if somebody's soul is in heaven and their ipad is in the landfill and their underwear is in the washing machine?

It says the person themselves was or is dead. Jesus the person died. Lazarus the person died. Abraham the person died. These other things you bring to the party like souls and whatnot (that aren't in the bible) are quite irrelevant.
The "person" did not die. Their physical body died.

I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Mat 22:32

The Lord did not say... "I was the God of Abraham..." The words indicate that God was continuously BEING the God of Abraham.


Only our bodies die. Our souls have been given eternal life. But, not the soul of the unbeliever.

The unbeliever's soul is referred to as 'the dead.'

Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead,
but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
Lk 9:60

For the living know that they will die, but the dead
(unregenerate) know nothing; they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten."
Eccl 9:5
 
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May I ask, of what import is it if somebody's soul is in heaven and their ipad is in the landfill and their underwear is in the washing machine?

It says the person themselves was or is dead. Jesus the person died. Lazarus the person died. Abraham the person died. These other things you bring to the party like souls and whatnot (that aren't in the bible) are quite irrelevant.
Are you confused and trying to get clarification? Or do you really know these answers and are trying to confuse others?
You claim soul is not in the Bible.
 
Are you confused and trying to get clarification? Or do you really know these answers and are trying to confuse others?

I am trying to understand this doctrinal system that quite obviously agrees with the serpent and see how it is justified.


You claim soul is not in the Bible.

Correct. Follow the objects at the creation of man in Genesis 2.

Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground
- - - The man is the formed dust

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life,
- - - The formed dust is the man, who now has the breath of life

and the man became a living being.
- - - with the breath of God, the formed dust became a soul.


The formed dust doesn't have a soul, the formed dust now is a soul.
 
So to be clear,

1) your doctrine is the same as the serpent that said: "you shall not surely die."
Which serpent are you referring to? Your mentor?
You need to stop being bitter and cynical. Try asking how it was possible next time.

And? Adam did DIE! God did not lie. Adam died 'spiritually.'

The Lord provided immediately a blood sacrifice to cover Adam and Eve for their sin. How?

Those animal skins that the Lord clothed Adam and the woman with? They were from that first sacrifice!
 
Correct. Follow the objects at the creation of man in Genesis 2.

Adam (according to the Hebrew) was not created in Genesis 2.

The Hebrew word for "to create" is bara. It does not appear in regards to Adam's body.
In relation to God, bara specifically means 'to create something out from nothing." That took place in Genesis 1:28.

The soul of Adam was bara-created in Genesis 1:28. Not created (bara) in Genesis 2.

That male soul that was created (bara) in Genesis 2:28? There was no body yet to be found.
That soul was what the Lord breathed into the nostrils of the lifeless body seen in Genesis 2. A body that the Lord had not created out from nothing. But, had 'molded and formed' (jatsar) out from the elements of the earth.
The same earth that was 'bara' created out from nothing, in Genesis 1:1.
 
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