Why did believers have to wait in the bosom of Abraham instead of going to God's presence immediately?

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
This may have been kicked around already, but I am interested to hear people's ideas from scripture about it.
It occurred to me that when a believer died, prior to the resurrection, they could not go to be in God's presence because they had not yet been indwelt by Christ.
A person who did not have Christ indwelling them, would not be able to live in God's presence but would be destroyed.
If this is true, then it would also mean that when Jesus descended and brought up with Him those who had been captive in Abraham's bosom, those believers would have to have been, during that process, indwelt by Christ so they could stand face to face with the Father.

Other than the scriptures I am alluding to, I don't know off hand what else I might add scripturally, but I am interested to know what scriptures come to mind along with the accompanying thoughts.
 
This may have been kicked around already, but I am interested to hear people's ideas from scripture about it.
It occurred to me that when a believer died, prior to the resurrection, they could not go to be in God's presence because they had not yet been indwelt by Christ.
A person who did not have Christ indwelling them, would not be able to live in God's presence but would be destroyed.
If this is true, then it would also mean that when Jesus descended and brought up with Him those who had been captive in Abraham's bosom, those believers would have to have been, during that process, indwelt by Christ so they could stand face to face with the Father.

Other than the scriptures I am alluding to, I don't know off hand what else I might add scripturally, but I am interested to know what scriptures come to mind along with the accompanying thoughts.

There are a few assumptions here that I would challenge.
  • Why do you believe Christ descended into Abraham's bosom?
  • Why do you think Abraham's bosom is downwards?

1 Cor 15 is the definitive passage explaining what happens to the dead and the resurrection process. It is lengthy and detailed, and it doesn't mention any of those things. The state of the dead in Christ is described in verses 3-6, they are "asleep" rather than in Abraham's bosom.

The order of events are given also (verses 20-28)
  1. Christ's resurrection
  2. The resurrection of the saints
  3. The kingdom era
  4. The kingdom given up to God
1 Thess 4 is another go-to chapter that describes the state of the dead, and it doesn't mention Abraham's bosom. It states that Christ doesn't come back to earth with his saints, but rather he comes to earth to get the saints. This would suggest that the saints aren't with him where he is, but that they are on the earth.
 
There are a few assumptions here that I would challenge.
  • Why do you believe Christ descended into Abraham's bosom?
  • Why do you think Abraham's bosom is downwards?

1 Cor 15 is the definitive passage explaining what happens to the dead and the resurrection process. It is lengthy and detailed, and it doesn't mention any of those things. The state of the dead in Christ is described in verses 3-6, they are "asleep" rather than in Abraham's bosom.

The order of events are given also (verses 20-28)
  1. Christ's resurrection
  2. The resurrection of the saints
  3. The kingdom era
  4. The kingdom given up to God
1 Thess 4 is another go-to chapter that describes the state of the dead, and it doesn't mention Abraham's bosom. It states that Christ doesn't come back to earth with his saints, but rather he comes to earth to get the saints. This would suggest that the saints aren't with him where he is, but that they are on the earth.
Eph 4:5 uses the word "descended" in reference to what happened when jesus died. so I wonder what you are looking at which causes you an issue?
Concerning 1 Corinthians 15, "He was raised" indicates that He had been lowered.
When dicussing 1 Cor 15, we keep in mind that it was written after the resurrection, and is about Christians. Therefore none of those referenced will go to Abraham's bosom, becaue that is over.
Regarding verses 20-28, Again this is from the POV looking back to the resurrection, so I doubt I would disagree with your order of events, but the passage does not address what he did after he descended, It begins as He ascends.
! thess 4 may be difficult, but again it is not dealing with Christ while He descended and what He did there.

Thanks for the response, I like being provoked to search the scripture and think about what they say
 
Eph 4:5 uses the word "descended" in reference to what happened when jesus died. so I wonder what you are looking at which causes you an issue?

This is about Christ being placed in a tomb.

4:9 What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

The only reference to "Bosom of Abraham" describes a bodily person placed in a grave and isn't moved from that location (unlike Lazarus), who describes how flames and water affect him.

Concerning 1 Corinthians 15, "He was raised" indicates that He had been lowered.

The context is "raised from the dead"

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.


Yes, Christ descended into the grave but I don't know what that has to do with Abraham's bosom. There are many examples of people being raised from the dead throughout the bible, and none of them report anything about Abraham's bosom.


When dicussing 1 Cor 15, we keep in mind that it was written after the resurrection, and is about Christians. Therefore none of those referenced will go to Abraham's bosom, becaue that is over.
Regarding verses 20-28, Again this is from the POV looking back to the resurrection, so I doubt I would disagree with your order of events, but the passage does not address what he did after he descended, It begins as He ascends.

! thess 4 may be difficult, but again it is not dealing with Christ while He descended and what He did there.

Thanks for the response, I like being provoked to search the scripture and think about what they say

I doubt he did anything after he died. He was dead.
 
This is about Christ being placed in a tomb.

4:9 What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

The only reference to "Bosom of Abraham" describes a bodily person placed in a grave and isn't moved from that location (unlike Lazarus), who describes how flames and water affect him.



The context is "raised from the dead"

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.


Yes, Christ descended into the grave but I don't know what that has to do with Abraham's bosom. There are many examples of people being raised from the dead throughout the bible, and none of them report anything about Abraham's bosom.




I doubt he did anything after he died. He was dead.
are you challenging the idea that before Jesus resurrected, those who died in faith went to Abraham's bosom?
 
This may have been kicked around already, but I am interested to hear people's ideas from scripture about it.
It occurred to me that when a believer died, prior to the resurrection, they could not go to be in God's presence because they had not yet been indwelt by Christ.
A person who did not have Christ indwelling them, would not be able to live in God's presence but would be destroyed.
If this is true, then it would also mean that when Jesus descended and brought up with Him those who had been captive in Abraham's bosom, those believers would have to have been, during that process, indwelt by Christ so they could stand face to face with the Father.

Other than the scriptures I am alluding to, I don't know off hand what else I might add scripturally, but I am interested to know what scriptures come to mind along with the accompanying thoughts.
FYI, no one could go to the 3rd Heaven till AFTER Jesus shed His blood on the Cross! Thus OT saints went to the Paradise side of Hades ( Known as Abrahams bosom )! There is a Hell side of Hades ! Both sides are separated by a GREAT Gulf or Chasm ( See Luke 16:19-26 for that fact - specifically verse 26 )! That Great Chasm just might be the PIT that Satan gets bound in for 1000 Years ( see Rev. 20:1-3 )! So once Jesus shed His Blood on the cross He went to Paradise, like He said He would go to be with the saved thief being crucified on His right hand side! Thus all the OT saints could now go to the third Heaven and the Paradise side of Hades is now empty! The Hell side is still filling up with the dead unsaved people! It will continue to do so till the END of Jesus' still future 1000 year Reign! Then the GWTJ of Rev.20:11-15 transpires and all the unsaved as well as Hades gets tossed into the Lake of Fire!
 
FYI, no one could go to the 3rd Heaven till AFTER Jesus shed His blood on the Cross! Thus OT saints went to the Paradise side of Hades ( Known as Abrahams bosom )! There is a Hell side of Hades ! Both sides are separated by a GREAT Gulf or Chasm ( See Luke 16:19-26 for that fact - specifically verse 26 )! That Great Chasm just might be the PIT that Satan gets bound in for 1000 Years ( see Rev. 20:1-3 )! So once Jesus shed His Blood on the cross He went to Paradise, like He said He would go to be with the saved thief being crucified on His right hand side! Thus all the OT saints could now go to the third Heaven and the Paradise side of Hades is now empty! The Hell side is still filling up with the dead unsaved people! It will continue to do so till the END of Jesus' still future 1000 year Reign! Then the GWTJ of Rev.20:11-15 transpires and all the unsaved as well as Hades gets tossed into the Lake of Fire!
Ok, that sounds like you are agreeing generally to what i am saying. And what about Enoch and Elijah? Where did they go?
 
Ok, that sounds like you are agreeing generally to what i am saying. And what about Enoch and Elijah? Where did they go?
They did NOT Die! Thus they might have been allowed into the 3rd Heaven! Paradise is where ALL souls/spirits of saved dead OT saints went before the cross of Jesus! Enoch & Elijah are not dead OT saints because God took them before they died! It does NOT say where God took them to! Thus we can only speculate on those two, but for sure, All OT saints who died before Jesus shed His blood, their souls/spirits went to the paradise side of Hades, called Abrahams' bosom!
 
I think I am misunderstanding you. Are you discarding the concept of Abraham's Bosom

Yes.

It is mentioned nowhere in the bible except in the Luke story with the exception of a mention in the apocrypha (iirc). If it were real, then it would be explicitly described somewhere in Genesis 3 most likely.
 
Yes.

It is mentioned nowhere in the bible except in the Luke story with the exception of a mention in the apocrypha (iirc). If it were real, then it would be explicitly described somewhere in Genesis 3 most likely.
i do not think that is a valid requirement that a truth must be mentoined several times if it is to believed
 
i do not think that is a valid requirement that a truth must be mentoined several times if it is to believed

If it were a literal truth relevant to all humans everywhere, it starts exactly like the parable that precedes it (compare Luke 16:1 to Luke 16:19) which should raise suspicions that it isn't a literal truth, and it wouldn't be aimed at a very specific group of people (who loved money Luke 16:14).

If it is a literal truth relevant to all humans everywhere, Luke 16 is not the place to record this particular truth.
 
If it were a literal truth relevant to all humans everywhere, it starts exactly like the parable that precedes it (compare Luke 16:1 to Luke 16:19) which should raise suspicions that it isn't a literal truth, and it wouldn't be aimed at a very specific group of people (who loved money Luke 16:14).

If it is a literal truth relevant to all humans everywhere, Luke 16 is not the place to record this particular truth.
To clarify, the story is metaphoric. Of course people do not take their bodies with them when they die, But a metaphoric story has a literal meaning.
This one is about where people before the resurrection went when they died.
For you what is the literal meaning of the story?

Plus you aroused my curiosity when you stated that a literal story had no place in Luke 16. Why do you say that?
 
This is about Christ being placed in a tomb.

4:9 What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

The only reference to "Bosom of Abraham" describes a bodily person placed in a grave and isn't moved from that location (unlike Lazarus), who describes how flames and water affect him.



The context is "raised from the dead"

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.


Yes, Christ descended into the grave but I don't know what that has to do with Abraham's bosom. There are many examples of people being raised from the dead throughout the bible, and none of them report anything about Abraham's bosom.




I doubt he did anything after he died. He was dead.
WHo do you doubt did anything after dying? Jesus. Abraham. Lazarus?
 
To clarify, the story is metaphoric. Of course people do not take their bodies with them when they die, But a metaphoric story has a literal meaning.
This one is about where people before the resurrection went when they died.
For you what is the literal meaning of the story?

Plus you aroused my curiosity when you stated that a literal story had no place in Luke 16. Why do you say that?

This story is about the priesthood. The story has a literal and direct application to the audience. He was trying to dissuade the Pharisees from following the priesthood (as Paul did before his conversion), but see what God was doing outside of the law.

The rich man is Caiaphas.
His father (in law) is Annas.
The beggar is Lazarus
The five brothers (the sons of Annas) are: Eleazar, Jonathan, Theophilus, Matthias, and Annas

And Jesus was right, though somebody rose from the dead and went to them, they still would not repent. They loved their money and their position, and they sought to kill Jesus all the more because Lazarus rose from the dead. (John 12:9-11).

The story isn't literally true (i.e. past tense at the time) as Lazarus and the rich man were both still very much alive at the time. In Luke's narrative, Jesus hasn't begun his journey to Jerusalem yet.

This has nothing to do with human beings writ large except as a cautionary parable about the love of money.
 
WHo do you doubt did anything after dying? Jesus. Abraham. Lazarus?

After their death,
  • Jesus rose from the dead and rules from heaven. (the first fruits 1 Cor 15:20)
  • Lazarus rose from the dead. I presume he died again and sleeps awaiting the resurrection. (1 Cor 15:23)
  • Abraham died and is buried, and also sleeps awaiting the resurrection. He has not received his reward (Hebrews 11:8-13)
 
This story is about the priesthood. The story has a literal and direct application to the audience. He was trying to dissuade the Pharisees from following the priesthood (as Paul did before his conversion), but see what God was doing outside of the law.

The rich man is Caiaphas.
His father (in law) is Annas.
The beggar is Lazarus
The five brothers (the sons of Annas) are: Eleazar, Jonathan, Theophilus, Matthias, and Annas

And Jesus was right, though somebody rose from the dead and went to them, they still would not repent. They loved their money and their position, and they sought to kill Jesus all the more because Lazarus rose from the dead. (John 12:9-11).

The story isn't literally true (i.e. past tense at the time) as Lazarus and the rich man were both still very much alive at the time. In Luke's narrative, Jesus hasn't begun his journey to Jerusalem yet.

This has nothing to do with human beings writ large except as a cautionary parable about the love of money.
Your interpretation of the passage is impossible to follow just by looking at the scripture. Somewhere you have brought in outside data to interpret the Bible
 
After their death,
  • Jesus rose from the dead and rules from heaven. (the first fruits 1 Cor 15:20)
  • Lazarus rose from the dead. I presume he died again and sleeps awaiting the resurrection. (1 Cor 15:23)
  • Abraham died and is buried, and also sleeps awaiting the resurrection. He has not received his reward (Hebrews 11:8-13)
Fairly far outside of orthodoxy. I would guess that you don't accept the standard interpretation of "took captivity captive"
 
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