Why did God create the world?

[Caroljeen]

I'm using this post from another forum in CARM to jumpstart this thread:

When there was only God there was no judgment, wrath , anger as a result of sin.
Those are not innate attributes. Those are communicable attributes via the fall .
...
God is Love apart from creation. It’s an innate attribute of His Being.
A unitarian god by definition cannot be love. It’s an oxymoron. Only the Triune God is love because within the relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Divine Love found as it’s source .
By definition a solitary god, ie 1 person cannot love. There is no one to experience or share live with . It’s how I take down the unitarian god every time. They run away from it like the plague .

According to this poster, before God created, He did not know and never experienced wrath or anger. He never had to judge between evil and good.
Why did God create the world if he foreknew and predestined a world that would challenge and offend his holiness? Why not remain in peaceful, blissful perichoretic harmony with the Son and the Spirit, each other being the object of one another's love?

 

[Dant01]

.
When a critical thinker points out that some of God's ways are unreasonable; the
average Christian typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become indignant,
defensive, and judgmental; deceitfully concealing the unspeakable truth that they
too have sometimes entertained the very same opinions.

Try answering the seven questions listed below with a straight up YES or a NO sans
excuses, explanations, apologetics, sermons, accusations, recriminations, and/or
canned responses.

1» Was there ever a time when you felt that God should've stepped in to prevent
the Serpent from tempting Eve?

2» Was there ever a time when you resented God's control over your life?

3» Was there ever a time when you were dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of
Fire? In other words: was there a time when you felt those punishments go too far,
i.e. they're over-kill; too extreme.

4» God knew in advance that He would regret creating humankind, and that He
would be drowning most of it in a global deluge; yet went ahead and created people
anyway. Has there ever been a time when you felt there was something sick and
twisted about God for doing that?

5» Was there ever a time when you felt that some of God's actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

6» Was there ever a time when you wished God didn't exist?

7» Was there ever a time when you regarded God as an enemy rather than a
friend?
_

 

[Theo1689]

Try answering the seven questions listed below with a straight up YES or a NO sans excuses, explanations, apologetics, sermons, accusations, recriminations, and/or canned responses.

That seems unreasonable to me, but whatever....

If you asked someone, "Have you stopped beating your wife?", and you can only answer YES or NO, and you can't add any other explanations, do you think that would be reasonable?

1» Was there ever a time when you felt that God should've stepped in to prevent the Serpent from tempting Eve?

No.

2» Was there ever a time when you resented God's control over your life?

No.

3» Was there ever a time when you were dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of Fire? In other words: was there a time when you felt those punishments go too far, i.e. they're over-kill; too extreme.

No.

4» God knew in advance that He would regret creating humankind, and that He would be drowning most of it in a global deluge; yet went ahead and created people anyway. Has there ever been a time when you felt there was something sick and twisted about God for doing that?

No.

5» Was there ever a time when you felt that some of God's actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

No.

6» Was there ever a time when you wished God didn't exist?

No.

7» Was there ever a time when you regarded God as an enemy rather than a
friend?
_

In my experience, no.
According to the Bible, yes.

Now what, hot shot?

 

[Theo1689]

I'm using this post from another forum in CARM to jumpstart this thread:


According to this poster, before God created, He did not know and never experienced wrath or anger. He never had to judge between evil and good.
Why did God create the world if he foreknew and predestined a world that would challenge and offend his holiness? Why not remain in peaceful, blissful perichoretic harmony with the Son and the Spirit, each other being the object of one another's love?

Funny how you not only don't have an answer for HIS question, but you don't have an answer for your OWN questions.

So according to you, before creation, God could not know or experience love, as He had no one to love. Unless of course He loved Himself, but you would dismiss that as "arrogance" or "narcissism" or something like that, right?

 

[Dant01]

.

In my experience, no.
According to the Bible, yes.

The test requires straight up YES or NO answers sans excuses, explanations,
apologetics, sermons, accusations, recriminations, and/or canned responses.
_

 

[e v e 21]

I'm using this post from another forum in CARM to jumpstart this thread:


According to this poster, before God created, He did not know and never experienced wrath or anger. He never had to judge between evil and good.
Why did God create the world if he foreknew and predestined a world that would challenge and offend his holiness? Why not remain in peaceful, blissful perichoretic harmony with the Son and the Spirit, each other being the object of one another's love?

He did not create this warped corrupt world.

Its a result of what adam did

 

[Caroljeen]

Funny how you not only don't have an answer for HIS question, but you don't have an answer for your OWN questions.

I've only just begun.

So according to you, before creation, God could not know or experience love, as He had no one to love. Unless of course He loved Himself, but you would dismiss that as "arrogance" or "narcissism" or something like that, right?

God created to have a people he could shower his lavish love upon, imo. How could God know loneliness if he didn't experience it himself? Gen 2:18

 

[Caroljeen]

.
When a critical thinker points out that some of God's ways are unreasonable; the
average Christian typically circles the wagons, i.e. they become indignant,
defensive, and judgmental; deceitfully concealing the unspeakable truth that they
too have sometimes entertained the very same opinions.

Try answering the seven questions listed below with a straight up YES or a NO sans
excuses, explanations, apologetics, sermons, accusations, recriminations, and/or
canned responses.

1» Was there ever a time when you felt that God should've stepped in to prevent
the Serpent from tempting Eve?

No

2» Was there ever a time when you resented God's control over your life?

No

3» Was there ever a time when you were dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of
Fire? In other words: was there a time when you felt those punishments go too far,
i.e. they're over-kill; too extreme.

Yes, but...

4» God knew in advance that He would regret creating humankind, and that He
would be drowning most of it in a global deluge; yet went ahead and created people
anyway. Has there ever been a time when you felt there was something sick and
twisted about God for doing that?

No

5» Was there ever a time when you felt that some of God's actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

No, I blame those things on the devil

6» Was there ever a time when you wished God didn't exist?

Never

7» Was there ever a time when you regarded God as an enemy rather than a
friend?
_

No


Dante, I've answered your questions. What are your thoughts on the OP?

 

[e v e 21]

I've only just begun.

God created to have a people he could shower his lavish love upon, imo. How could God know loneliness if he didn't experience it himself? Gen 2:18

God wasn’t lonely

His spirit and christ were there

 

[Theo1689]

God created to have a people he could shower his lavish love upon, imo.

Why did you single out "love" out of all of God's MANY attributes?

How could God know loneliness if he didn't experience it himself? Gen 2:18

Wow.
Gen. 2:18 doesn't even come CLOSE to say "God experienced loneliness".
You are an expert twister of Scriptures.

 

[Caroljeen]

Why did you single out "love" out of all of God's MANY attributes?

Well then, did God create with the intent of showing off his glory, justice, wrath, and power (since he could not do this in heaven) to those he predetermined to go to hell? Did he intentionally want to show the contrast of his marvelous goodness compared to total depravity of evil, disobedient men by predestining the non-elect to be evil sinners? Is this the way he could show how truly wonderful he is?
If not, then why did God create at all if he was content in the love of the triune God? Why predestine some men to hell without the hope of salvation through Christ?

Wow.
Gen. 2:18 doesn't even come CLOSE to say "God experienced loneliness".
You are an expert twister of Scriptures.

How did God anticipate that Adam would be lonely and need a helpmate?

 

[Theo1689]

Well then, did God create with the intent of showing off his glory, justice, wrath, and power (since he could not do this in heaven) to those he predetermined to go to hell?

Have you never read Rom. 9?
Actually, you got it pretty close.... He had the intent of showing those attributes to those he predetermined for HEAVEN:

Rom. 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Btw, some more food for thought...
Twice in Scripture, God uses the threefold repetition:
"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty" (Isa. 6:3, Rev. 4:8).

Scripture NEVER says, "God is love, love, love".

So what do you think that means?

Did he intentionally want to show the contrast of his marvelous goodness compared to total depravity of evil, disobedient men by predestining the non-elect to be evil sinners? Is this the way he could show how truly wonderful he is?

According to Scripture, yes.
But if you don't want to believe Scripture, then that's your choice.

Why predestine some men to hell without the hope of salvation through Christ?

To the praise of His glorious grace.

How did God anticipate that Adam would be lonely and need a helpmate?

Um, God created all things.
He is in 100% complete control of everything.
That's called "sovereignty".

 

[Caroljeen]

Have you never read Rom. 9?
Actually, you got it pretty close.... He had the intent of showing those attributes to those he predetermined for HEAVEN:

Rom. 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

This is one of the major differences in the way you and I understand God. I believe his intentions toward humanity always good... they always begin with mercy, love, patience, and kindness. He knows we are but dust, a vapor in the wind and he deals with each of us gently. If we persist in our rebellion toward him then there comes a point that he leaves us to our own delusion and sin, and metaphorically turns his face from us and punishes us for our wrongdoing. God takes absolutely no pleasure or glory in punishing the wicked. God foreknows all of this, all of our resistance and all of his loving influences shown toward us to draw us to himself. And based on that foreknowledge Romans 8: 29-30 Paul could follow up to write Romans 9: 22-23.

My interpretation of Romans 9: 22-23 would be that God through his foreknowledge endured with much patience the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. The vessels of wrath were not prepared or predestined apart from God's foreknowledge of their wicked actions and resistance to God's loving and grace-filled gestures to save them. They left God no option but to punish them for their wickedness. Even though God foreknew that certain people would not respond to his advances toward them, God made these vessels of destruction anyways. Possibly because God foreknew in the end that he would have a faithful people who would return the grace and mercy that he had shown them with love and gratefulness.

Your assertion that it was specifically God's intention in creating and predestining vessels for wrath so that he could show off his wrath and power against the wicked is like justified premeditated murder. It makes God out to be more wicked than those he is punishing because, from your understanding, the wicked had never had a choice. God made it so that they couldn't repent of their wickedness. Predetermining their fate, God was somehow able to be angry with them and delighted in showing his holiness and power by destroying them. Now look at the God we see when we look at Jesus. It's impossible to see any resemblance of your view in the face of Christ Jesus.

Btw, some more food for thought...
Twice in Scripture, God uses the threefold repetition:
"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty" (Isa. 6:3, Rev. 4:8).

Scripture NEVER says, "God is love, love, love".

So what do you think that means?

I think that God is holy, holy, holy. I understand is anger against the wicked. The bible also teaches us that God is love and wants us to be his disciples of love. By doing this we reflect Jesus to the world. When we do this we are known as God's children; Eph 5:12-

John 13: 34 I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Jesus put these 2 commandments above the 10 commandments.

Matthew 22: 36-40 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Um, God created all things.
He is in 100% complete control of everything.
That's called "sovereignty".

I think God knew loneliness because he was alone prior to creation therefore he could anticipate Adam would become lonely and created Eve.
I didn't say anything against God's sovereinity.

 

[Theo1689]

This is one of the major differences in the way you and I understand God. I believe his intentions toward humanity always good...

So your god is an altruist, who cares for others more than he cares for himself?
You don't belive in the Biblical God.
I do.

they always begin with mercy, love, patience, and kindness.

You believe in half of a god, for you are ignoring half of His attributes.
You are ignoring His wrath, power, holiness, hate, jealousy, etc. etc.

He expresses what you might call the "positive" (for man) attributes on the elect.
He expressed what you might call the "negative" (for man) attributes on the reprobate.

He knows we are but dust, a vapor in the wind and he deals with each of us gently. If we persist in our rebellion toward him then there comes a point that he leaves us to our own delusion and sin, and metaphorically turns his face from us and punishes us for our wrongdoing.

You make God dependent on man, since you have Him "reacting" to man.
In your world, man is in control, and God is a slave since he "reacts" as man controls him.

God takes absolutely no pleasure or glory in punishing the wicked.

That's completely unBiblical.
The quote you're alluding to does not have, "or glory".
He punishes the wicked to express His HOLINESS and JUSTICE, not for "pleasure".

God foreknows all of this, all of our resistance and all of his loving influences shown toward us to draw us to himself. And based on that foreknowledge Romans 8: 29-30 Paul could follow up to write Romans 9: 22-23.

I just wrote a post explaining the TRUE meaning of "foreknowing".
I suggest you read it.
You would at least learn that Rom. 8 doesn't say anything about "foreknowledge" (the noun), it talks about God's action of "foreknowing" (the verb). But heretics like you always have to CHANGE Scripture (like when you added "or glory" to Ezek. 33:11.

I like my Scripture "straight up", and not mixed in a blender with other ingredients.

My interpretation of Romans 9: 22-23 ...

... is not something I'm the least bit interested.
Opinions are like sphincters.

They left God no option but ...

Wow.
Your god is weak and impotent.

Your assertion that it was specifically God's intention in creating and predestining vessels for wrath so that he could show off his wrath and power against the wicked is like justified premeditated murder.

Really?
So are you calling the judge who sentenced Manson to the death penalty was a murderer?
How about the judge who sentenced Scott Peterson to death? Was he a murderer too?

You seem to be trying to defend enemies of God.
You seem to think they are innocent victims, rather than the evil sinners that they are.
Why are you trying to defend evil sinners?

It makes God out to be more wicked than those he is punishing because, from your understanding, the wicked had never had a choice.

Nope.
I NEVER said "the wicked had never had a choice".
They ALL had a choice.
They ALL chose to sin.
And now they have to live with the consequences of their choices.

That doesn't make God a "murderer".
It makes Him JUST.

It doesn't make God "wicked".
It makes Him HOLY.

God made it so that they couldn't repent of their wickedness.

No, He did no such thing.
They made themselves slaves of sin, by choosing to sin.

I think that God is holy, holy, holy. I understand is anger against the wicked. The bible also teaches us that God is love and wants us to be his disciples of love.

Please show me any verse of Scripture that reads, "God wants".

John 13: 34 I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Key word... "COMMANDMENT".
That doesn't mean, "we get to choose".

Jesus put these 2 commandments above the 10 commandments.

Matthew 22: 36-40 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

I doubt you even know WHY God gave us the commandments.
I suggest you read Rom. 3:19-20, and Gal. 3:24-25.

I think ....

... I couldn't care less what you "think".
I only care what God has revealed in His word, the Bible.

God knew loneliness because he was alone prior to creation therefore he could anticipate Adam would become lonely and created Eve.
I didn't say anything against God's sovereinity.

Nothing but anti-Biblical garbage.
Maybe Paul was right when he didn't permit a woman to teach.

 

[1Thess521]

Why did God create the world?​

for His glory

Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory. (Isaiah 43:6-7)

 

[1Thess521]

I think that God is holy, holy, holy. I understand is anger against the wicked. The bible also teaches us that God is love and wants us to be his disciples of love. By doing this we reflect Jesus to the world. When we do this we are known as God's children; Eph 5:12-

John 13: 34 I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

The chief aim of God is to exalt Himself
and God loves Himself more than He loves us.

Isaiah 48:9-11 For my name’s sake I defer my anger; for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

For my name’s sake!
For the sake of my praise!
For my own sake!
For my own sake!
How should my name be profaned!
My glory I will not give to another!

Isaiah 43:25 : "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Do you ever pray like this?
Ps.25:11 “For Thy names’ sake, O Lord, pardon my iniquity, for it is great.”

Ps.79:9 “Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Thy name; and deliver us, and forgive our sins, for Thy name’s sake.”

 

[Theo1689]

The chief aim of God is to exalt Himself
and God loves Himself more than He loves us.

Isaiah 48:9-11 For my name’s sake I defer my anger; for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

For my name’s sake!
For the sake of my praise!
For my own sake!
For my own sake!
How should my name be profaned!
My glory I will not give to another!

Isaiah 43:25 : "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Do you ever pray like this?
Ps.25:11 “For Thy names’ sake, O Lord, pardon my iniquity, for it is great.”

Ps.79:9 “Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Thy name; and deliver us, and forgive our sins, for Thy name’s sake.”

Psa. 23:3 He restores my soul.
He leads me in paths of righteousness
for his name’s sake.

2Chr. 6:32 “Likewise, when a foreigner, who is not of your people Israel, comes from a far country for the sake of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm, when he comes and prays toward this house,

Psa. 79:9 Help us, O God of our salvation,
for the glory of your name;
deliver us, and atone for our sins,
for your name’s sake!

Psa. 143:11 For your name’s sake, O LORD, preserve my life!
In your righteousness bring my soul out of trouble!

Is. 48:9 “For my name’s sake I defer my anger;
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.

Ezek. 20:9 But I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made myself known to them in bringing them out of the land of Egypt.

Ezek. 20:14 But I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out.

Ezek. 20:22 But I withheld my hand and acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out.

Ezek. 20:44 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I deal with you for my name’s sake, not according to your evil ways, nor according to your corrupt deeds, O house of Israel, declares the Lord GOD.”

Ezek. 36:22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.

Acts 9:16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

 

[Caroljeen]

for His glory

Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory. (Isaiah 43:6-7)

What does that mean to you, 1Thess521?

 

[Caroljeen]

Looks like I brought the wrath of the Calvinists upon myself. I love you guys.

 

[puddleglum]

Looks like I brought the wrath of the Calvinists upon myself. I love you guys.

It's better to suffer the wrath of Calvinists than the wrath of God.