Why did God create the world?

[Josheb]

It implies it with all of its comparisons of the church as the bride of Christ.
1. Human wives are being compared with the Christ and the church (his wife.)
2. Human husbands are to love their wives by imitating Christ and his love for the church (her). Just as husbands and wives are one flesh (Gen 2:23-24) The author is using Christ and the church (his body) to instruct the way in which husbands should love their wives.
3. Those united to Christ (another allusion to marriage...Gen 2:23-24) become one spirit with him. Our body becomes his temple when the Holy Spirit is within us. (see also Roman 8:9-11)


1. 22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as to the Lord, 23 for the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands etc.

2. Eph5: 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind, so that she may be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own flesh, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I am speaking about Christ and the church. 33 Each of you, however, should love his wife as himself, and a wife should respect her husband

3. 1 Cor 6: 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Should I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, “The two shall be one flesh.” 17 But anyone united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Shun sexual immorality! Every sin that a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against the body itself. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.


I'll add one more passage of scriptures:

Rev 19: 6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord God
the Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready;
8 to her it has been granted to be clothed
with fine linen, bright and pure”—
for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

I completely agree with every single passage you've quoted and I am OVERJOYED you've finally showed up with some scripture to support your position. The problem is ALL of those marriages included Christ. Marriage was never just about one mane and one woman...... apart from the Son. It's never two; it is always three.

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12
Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor. For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up. Furthermore, if two lie down together they keep warm, but how can one be warm alone? And if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him. A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart.


?????

What? Where'd the "three" come from?

ALL marriage is supposed to be one man, one woman, and Jesus. It was supposed to be that way in Eden, and it's supposed to be that way in those in the Church. It's supposed to be that way for all humanity throughout time and space but sin kills. It kills relationship. Even though the Bible doesn't use this label what it described in the last half of Genesis 3 is estrangement. Adam (and Eve) became estranged, estranged from God, estranged from himself, estranged from others, and estranged from the world over which moments earlier he'd been the divinely mandated steward! And he was forbidden to eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

Christ the resurrection.


If you put all the passages you posted together with all the passages I posted you'll come to the same conclusion. It's not a wife, it's a trinity. Not The Trinity, a trinity. Not even the angels get that kind of union with their Creator.

 

[Our Lord's God]

I agree that God is glorious but I don't think that was the reason he created the world. That is the opposite of meek and lowly. i don't believe that he made us in order to have someone continually saying how wonderful he is. He has a heavenly crew of angels doing that. Rev 7:11-17, Rev 5:11-14

It impossible not to worship God when you are in his presence. Not the reason he created. He doesn't need our worship.

God created everything for himself for the same reason God made Eve for Adam.

Creation is His "significant other."

And God's love/heart for His creation is His son Jesus.
And the bride of Christ, the church, is creation's heart/love toward God.

 

[Caroljeen]

Do you think the lamb marries his own body?

If you mean by "his own body", the church, yes.

Does the lamb marry polygamously? In other words, does the lamb's marriage violate scores of the lamb's laws?

No, surely you are exaggerating.

The Lamb is a type which symbolizes God manifest in the flesh who is the sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. The Spirit of Christ/the Son inhabits everyone who is born again. By their new birth they are incorporated into his body and become his bride, the church. The body of Christ, the bride of Christ, the church are different types symbolizing relationships we have with Jesus who is God. I don't see how this is polygamous.
One man united to one woman was started early on with Adam and Eve. It is a law for man not God who we are all united to by his Spirit that lives within in us. Romans 8:1 That God can be united as one spirit with each of his people is marvelous in my mind. 1 Cor 6:`7

These are figures of speech, analogies, symbols, typologies.

What are "these"? Can you be more specific?

A typology represents a reality. What are the realities you are talking about?

The alternative is as I have already stated: The God who is an eternal "Us" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has always already existed in a "marital relationship of intimacy, commitment, fidelity, and mutual purpose. Marriage is a temporal expression of a divine relationship.

Where is the scripture that describes God as being in a marriage relationship with himself?

I know trinitarians speak of God existing as 3 persons who are related to each other by their eternal origins as the one who begets, the one who is begotten, and the one who is "spirated". A marital relationship within God is something that I have never heard of especially not in the Bible.

God did not create the world so He could create a ritual ceremony so He could emulate worldly creation and find a wife.

That's not what I said or meant to say.

God created because he had in mind a relationship of intimacy, commitment, and fidelity, and "oneness" as you expressed above that he did not already have prior to creation. God set fleshly union of Adam and Eve as a type and shadow of the true, spiritual union God was desiring. The union that takes place when saved human spirit/souls are united to God through Christ.

You cannot proof-text one verse of the Bible.

I gave you 4 passages of scripture and now I've expanded it.

ALL that scripture says about the divine relationship, ALL that scripture has to say about marriage, ALL that scripture has to say about life in Christ (here AND on the other side of resurrection) must be considered together as a whole. We will live incorruptible and immortal on the other side of resurrection in an eternal intimate, committed, faithful, relationship but we will not be God and we will not be gods.

I agree.

That relationship reflects the divine nature; it is not itself the divine nature.

I disagree. The only divine relationship exists between the Father and the Son, imo. It is a father/son type of relationship.

You have to reconcile the marriage feast with all that Jesus said, including his plain statement there won't be any giving in marriage. Reconcile them. Don't pit them against one another.

My understanding of Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection people neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like angels of God in heaven. Is that Jesus is telling them that they are assuming incorrectly that life after the resurrection will be similar to like it was currently. But he corrected their wrong assumption by saying there is no marriage (among humans) after the resurrection. None of the seven brothers or the woman who was a wife to each of them are bound by their marriages on the earth any longer.

It has nothing to do with the marriage of the Lamb. Rev 19:6-9

God did not create the world to find a wife. That implies a need. It sort of reeks of the Gnostic Sophia religions. I trust that's not what is being asserted but if so then I will appreciate having that plainly stated so there is no confusion on my part. God needs nothing. Neither does Jesus. The imagery of marriage occurs at the intersection of Christology, soteriology, ecclesiology, and eschatology.

It's not that God needs anything but that he desires something.

The intersection you speak of is "relationship". God desires a relationship with someone other than himself. He created to bring about that relationship.

Three (not two) become one.
Marriage, scripturally speaking, was never about two becoming one solely with each other. The two become one with Christ. A three-stranded cord is not easily broken.
Marriage is a temporal expression of a divine relationship.

Is this all you have to support the trinitarian relationship between Father, Son, and Spirit is a reality of the type of marriage between two humans?

1 Corinthians 15:35-50
But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.... As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.


The world.
Life.
Death.
Resurrection.
Eternity.

That is the true order salutis. None of that other stuff occurs without there first being living creatures to save. Salvation is completed on the other side of resurrection. Where there i no life there cannot be death. Where there is no demise there is no raising and without the transformative raising flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Something new - so new not even the angelic spirits can aspire to it: incorruptible immortal creatures that bear the very image of God as members of His own Son's body.

a pleasant digression... what do you think is meant by body of Christ and how do we become part of that body?" 1 Cor 12:12-13

 

[Caroljeen]

I completely agree with every single passage you've quoted and I am OVERJOYED you've finally showed up with some scripture to support your position. The problem is ALL of those marriages included Christ.

I don't see a problem because the marriage that I'm referring to is Christ and his church/body/bride.

Marriage was never just about one mane and one woman...... apart from the Son. It's never two; it is always three

An earthly marriage has always been about one man and one woman before God. Gen 2:18-24

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12
Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor. For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up. Furthermore, if two lie down together they keep warm, but how can one be warm alone? And if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him. A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart.


?????

What? Where'd the "three" come from?

The NRSVUE has The Value of a Friend as a title for this passage
9 Two are better than one because they have a good reward for their toil. 10 For if they fall, one will lift up the other, but woe to one who is alone and falls and does not have another to help. 11 Again, if two lie together, they keep warm, but how can one keep warm alone? 12 And though one might prevail against another, two will withstand one. A threefold cord is not quickly broken.

These verses could be speaking of friends or family members and not necessarily husband and wife. The third is not another human person is a stretch.

ALL marriage is supposed to be one man, one woman, and Jesus. It was supposed to be that way in Eden, and it's supposed to be that way in those in the Church. It's supposed to be that way for all humanity throughout time and space but sin kills. It kills relationship. Even though the Bible doesn't use this label what it described in the last half of Genesis 3 is estrangement. Adam (and Eve) became estranged, estranged from God, estranged from himself, estranged from others, and estranged from the world over which moments earlier he'd been the divinely mandated steward! And he was forbidden to eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

I don't see biblical support for Jesus being part of the marriage between a couple from the Eden. I'm fairly sure that no Hebrew, Israelite or Jew would agree with your assessment that Jesus was there when Adam and Eve were united by God in the garden.

Estrangement is the same as divorce. Adam and Eve remained an intact couple and had children after they sinned in the garden. We don't know how long they were in the garden before they sinned. I don't know how you can become estranged from yourself. I think you are reading into the scriptures more than is there.

Christ the resurrection.

He is risen indeed!
Not sure what this has to do with why God created or the marriage supper of the Lamb or God desiring a relationship.

If you put all the passages you posted together with all the passages I posted you'll come to the same conclusion. It's not a wife, it's a trinity. Not The Trinity, a trinity. Not even the angels get that kind of union with their Creator.

By a trinity, you mean husband, wife and Jesus? What has this to do with why God created?
To sum it up, even though God was complete in himself without need of anything, he experienced loneliness. The reason God created was a desire for a relationship that was akin to marriage which he instituted as a type.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Try answering the seven questions listed below with a straight up YES or a NO sans
excuses, explanations, apologetics, sermons, accusations, recriminations, and/or
canned responses.

Nah...I'm going to answer them the way I want...with all due respect to you of course...

1» Was there ever a time when you felt that God should've stepped in to prevent
the Serpent from tempting Eve?

Maybe that's a question He should answer for you for He knows His reasons why He didn't.

2» Was there ever a time when you resented God's control over your life?

No. I had control of my life and free will to do what I wished with it and trust me I did. So, again, no.

3» Was there ever a time when you were dissatisfied with Hades and/or the Lake Of
Fire? In other words: was there a time when you felt those punishments go too far,
i.e. they're over-kill; too extreme.

I never considered hades or the lake of fire since I didn't believe in it UNTIL I became a born-again Christian. Up until that time I couldn't have cared less. Never considered it even as my friends died around me and we had services in their memory. I didn't see life in such terms. It was all about self agrandizement and what's in it for me.

4» God knew in advance that He would regret creating humankind, and that He
would be drowning most of it in a global deluge; yet went ahead and created people
anyway. Has there ever been a time when you felt there was something sick and
twisted about God for doing that?

Again, you are asking mortal man to justify God's reasonings. He, as the Creator, the potter if you will, has every right to do with His creation, His clay, as He sees fit. Methinks you have an axe to grind with God and are going to the wrong source to grind it. There is a psychological term for that.

5» Was there ever a time when you felt that some of God's actions were
unreasonable, unfair, inhumane, selfish, cruel, and/or the work of a mad man?

See my comment above.

6» Was there ever a time when you wished God didn't exist?

What's that old saying...oh yea...wish in one hand and...well, you know...in the other and see which one fills up first. That's what such a wish will get you. What a ridiculous question. With all due respect to you.

7» Was there ever a time when you regarded God as an enemy rather than a
friend?

Only an enemy of God would ask such a question.

 

[Josheb]

If you mean by "his own body", the church, yes.

No, surely you are exaggerating............

No, I am not exaggerating. Christ marrying his own body comes into direct conflict with many other scriptures. That's why the imagery, or "type," as you call it, has to be understood via whole scripture. Unblessedly, I don't often read much whole scripture when we trade posts.

You have been defending the position God created the world so He could have a bride. There is some veracity to the premise of God and His bride.

Isaiah 54:5
For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.

So you should not think I am wholly opposed to the imagery of the Church as Christ's bride. My dissent has to do with 1) taking the imagery too far by treating it literally, and 2) claiming this is God's purpose for creating the world, especially if that claim of needing a bride is held to occur outside of the content I provided in my op-reply.

God is purpose is that of making a new creature with whom He can have fellowship like no other. This new creature is made in His own image twice and is incorruptible and immortal. There's no other creature like that in the Bible. Any connotation this is a "bride" must be understood in a manner that isn't contradictory to the precepts of God as He articulated them. That is why, "No, surely you must be exaggerating," is a poor answer and made all the more disappointing by the change of topic away from the bride and onto the lamb.

I don't see a problem because the marriage that I'm referring to is Christ and his church/body/bride. An earthly marriage has always been about one man and one woman before God. Gen 2:18-24...........

An earthly marriage was not about one man and one woman from God's perspective. That's a secularized view that leaves out Jesus! Marriage was always intended to include the Son. That the Son was left out is one of the direct consequences of disobedience and sin's entrance into the world.

One man, one woman, and one Son. That is the Biblical model of marriage. It is a mistake to make that only eschatological.

What are "these"? Can you be more specific?

A typology represents a reality. What are the realities you are talking about?

Where is the scripture that describes God as being in a marriage relationship with himself?

I know trinitarians speak of God existing as 3 persons who are related to each other by their eternal origins as the one who begets, the one who is begotten, and the one who is "spirated". A marital relationship within God is something that I have never heard of especially not in the Bible.............


I gave you 4 passages of scripture and now I've expanded it.

I agree.

I disagree. The only divine relationship exists between the Father and the Son, imo. It is a father/son type of relationship.

I don't see a problem....

I don't see biblical support for Jesus being part of the marriage between a couple from the Eden. I'm fairly sure that no Hebrew, Israelite or Jew would agree with your assessment that Jesus was there when Adam and Eve were united by God in the garden.

Estrangement is the same as divorce..............

He is risen indeed!
Not sure what this has to do with why God created or the marriage supper of the Lamb or God desiring a relationship.

By a trinity, you mean husband, wife and Jesus? What has this to do with why God created?
To sum it up, even though God was complete in himself without need of anything, he experienced loneliness. The reason God created was a desire for a relationship that was akin to marriage which he instituted as a type.

Forgive my taking liberties with your posts and excerpting them as I have but I wanted to highlight the lack of knowledge being confessed in your own posts. I'm not saying I know everything on the matter (because I don't) but it's quite clear I am already familiar with the things you're presenting but the reverse is not the case.

I'm appreciative of your providing "four scriptures" but it's not close to sufficient. Look at two statements of yours I just quoted: no biblical support for Jesus being part of the Eden marriage is seen BUT estrangement is the same as divorce. Those two statements contradict one another. Adam and Eve weren't just estranged from each other, they were first and foremost estranged from God, their Maker. Estrangement is the same as divorce. If you truly believe estrangement is the same as divorce, then don't secularize the estrangement/divorce A&E experienced.


Isaiah 54:5
For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD of hosts; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.


While that statement from Isaiah is a matter of messianic prophecy, something to be realized in future of Isaiah's prophecy, the first clause is worded in the present tense, not the future. The Maker is our Husband. It's not the maker will be our husband; it is the Maker is our Husband. That is the context for the wedding feast upon which you've couched your position God regarding God's purpose.


One last thought: Do not rely too heavily on Jewish theology or Jewish practice or symbolism. They often had things incorrect, especially regarding marriage , the nature of the Messiah and life on the other side of the grave. We know this because much of it is corrected, or restored, in the New Testament.
.