Why do Calvinists disbelieve in and deny the sovereignty and power of God?

Tercon

Well-known member
In the New Testament its writers and God command, recommend and commend belief 245 times. That's more than His love, grace, forgiveness, repentance and his resurrection, and some would have us disbelieve that God believes, when faith is completely belief based and it is Christ's faith that we rely on for our very salvation? It is the same as disbelieving in and denying the very power of God, because if one disbelieves God believes, then they have embraced their unbelief of God's only means by which He is made known to us.
God creates everything that exists in His reality by believing it into existence, including the creating of His children in His own image, He does this by believing in and for them. Why do you think His grace is irresistible? When God believes in and for the believer this is what takes a unbeliever and turns them into a believer. Satan has done his worst to keep this from God's children, because God uses His and our belief to administer His gifts to His children too. You are missing out on His gifts when you disbelieve and deny the very means by which He does so, because we have to do the same as He does and believe in order to receive His gifts as well. So, effectively when one disbelieves that God believes, they are disbelieving and rejecting the very mode by which He uses to do everything in and for us. How can you receive anything from God, when you are disbelieving when you need to be believing in order to receive what He has for you?

This is essentially the same thread as you posted a day before which received no response. It was deleted. Changing the title doesn't change the content. The topic is acceptable for discussion.
 
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Tercon

Well-known member
Tercon, I'll be honest, you could be clearer in what you're trying to say. If you are simply trying to say God believes in some sense, I think you can make a decent Biblical case that God believes in himself and his truth.

If you think you can do better, then you are welcomed to try, as I don't mind just sitting back and reading about how and why God is known to us as believers. Actually I would quite enjoy that.

If you are trying to say that God's belief is the ground of our belief, that is, that God in essence "believes" for us, or on our behalf, somehow sharing his own belief with us, that is a bit tougher to show. Some Bible teachers I respect believe this, but I am not personally convinced. I think God gives and helps and empowers our faith, but he doesn't believe for us, like we have no responsibility and make no exertion.

If the the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to reside is in and with a believing mind, then the truth and reality must exist in God's believing mind. Why? Because He cannot be known to exist and reside anywhere but in His own believing mind and as believers we get to experience and partake of His reality with Him leading us with the Spirit of truth.

I would think God believing for us would sound similar to irresistible grace in a lot of ways, and I'm surprised a lot of Calvinists on here fight you so hard about it.
But Calvinists I've listened to are often extremely inconsistent, although they are not all the same, there are a few consistent ones, mostly hypers. You would think that God believing for you, or us somehow sharing in God's belief, would be something they would not be hostile to in general. I've definitely heard some Calvinists say things similar to that.

Actually that is how and why God's grace is irresistible. And if God is the truth and reality and He believes in and for us, then how could and why would we resist?

But most of them will sometimes act like everything is done by God, but then sometimes act like it isn't. They swap back and forth between the language of "decree" and the language of "secondary causes" to the point you can never pin them down on what exactly they consistently believe. They will phrase it contextually based on how they want to sound in that moment: God does evil? Heck no. Man does anything at all? Heck no. The realization they are contradicting themselves? Heck no.

If they believed that our beliefs in reality originate with God, then there is nothing to fight over anymore. The enemy loves division amongst the body of Christ, it keeps the Church down.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
It certainly seems to easy to get nasty in our disagreements. How would you communicate that you disagree with someone without being unkind to them? I feel like I've often fallen for the trap of getting baited or provoked into responding in a somewhat hostile manner when feeling unfairly treated.
I am being serious, if you think you can articulate this better, then go for it. I seriously don't mind in the least reading what you have to say about the present subject. :) If it is true, then it is of God and not mine anyway. If it isn't, then I would like to be corrected. But I think I can defend my position with another believer though.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
In the New Testament its writers and God command, recommend and commend belief 245 times. That's more than His love, grace, forgiveness, repentance and his resurrection, and some would have us disbelieve that God believes, when faith is completely belief based and it is Christ's faith that we rely on for our very salvation? It is the same as disbelieving in and denying the very power of God, because if one disbelieves God believes, then they have embraced their unbelief of God's only means by which He is made known to us.
God creates everything that exists in His reality by believing it into existence, including the creating of His children in His own image, He does this by believing in and for them. Why do you think His grace is irresistible? When God believes in and for the believer this is what takes a unbeliever and turns them into a believer. Satan has done his worst to keep this from God's children, because God uses His and our belief to administer His gifts to His children too. You are missing out on His gifts when you disbelieve and deny the very means by which He does so, because we have to do the same as He does and believe in order to receive His gifts as well. So, effectively when one disbelieves that God believes, they are disbelieving and rejecting the very mode by which He uses to do everything in and for us. How can you receive anything from God, when you are disbelieving when you need to be believing in order to receive what He has for you?

This is essentially the same thread as you posted a day before which received no response. It was deleted. Changing the title doesn't change the content. The topic is acceptable for discussion.
In the New Testament its writers and God command, recommend and commend belief 245 times. That's more than His love, grace, forgiveness, repentance and his resurrection, and some would have us disbelieve that God believes, when faith is completely belief based and it is Christ's faith that we rely on for our very salvation? It is the same as disbelieving in and denying the very power of God, because if one disbelieves God believes, then they have embraced their unbelief of God's only means by which He is made known to us.
God creates everything that exists in His reality by believing it into existence, including the creating of His children in His own image, He does this by believing in and for them. Why do you think His grace is irresistible? When God believes in and for the believer this is what takes a unbeliever and turns them into a believer. Satan has done his worst to keep this from God's children, because God uses His and our belief to administer His gifts to His children too. You are missing out on His gifts when you disbelieve and deny the very means by which He does so, because we have to do the same as He does and believe in order to receive His gifts as well. So, effectively when one disbelieves that God believes, they are disbelieving and rejecting the very mode by which He uses to do everything in and for us. How can you receive anything from God, when you are disbelieving when you need to be believing in order to receive what He has for you?

This is essentially the same thread as you posted a day before which received no response. It was deleted. Changing the title doesn't change the content. The topic is acceptable for discussion.
Do you have any quotes calvinists denying that God believes?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
So you simply assumed it to be true? I have not seen you deny being a murderer so you must be a murderer?

Strawman, I didn't post anything about being a murderer edit name calling

Like I said; I haven't seen one that has said they believe that God believes.

Do you believe that God believes?
 
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Tercon

Well-known member
Why would I lie about God ?

Strawman. I didn't say you were lying "about God". Rather you are lying and pretending to know God. If your knowledge of God didn't originate in and with God, then your knowledge isn't of God silly. You don't know how and why God is God do you?
 
G

guest1

Guest
Strawman. I didn't say you were lying "about God". Rather you are lying and pretending to know God. If your knowledge of God didn't originate in and with God, then your knowledge isn't of God silly. You don't know how and why God is God do you?
Read Job 38-40 for your answer to the question which God gives to Job.

next..........
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Read Job 38-40 for your answer to the question which God gives to Job.

next..........

Evasion. I read Job, but I didn't see you mentioned in it once. So what's your point in telling me to "read Job"?

If YOU know God, then explain how and why God is God. Stop evading.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Evasion. I read Job, but I didn't see you mentioned in it once. So what's your point in telling me to "read Job"?

If YOU know God, then explain how and why God is God. Stop evading.
God answers your question listen to Him
 

Tercon

Well-known member
He believes everything he knows by definition.

And where is your evidence that calvinist do not believe this in general?

How do you know God "knows by definition" without you first believing He believed in and for you in order to make that reality known to you?

If you know that God believes in and for you, then explain how and why God is God?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Strawman, I didn't post anything about being a murderer silly.

Like I said; I haven't seen one that has said they believe that God believes.

Do you believe that God believes?
So you have not seen one, so what. Have you seen all there is to see? Your logic, or lack thereof, is astounding
 
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