Why do so many think Israel being established is a sign that God is helping them?

sk0rpi0n

Member
The Bible says God can gather Israel back in one place for the sole purpose of punishing them as a nation.

17 Then the word of the Lord came to me:
18 “Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver.
19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem.
20 As silver, copper, iron, lead and tin are gathered into a furnace to be melted with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you. 21 I will gather you and I will blow on you with my fiery wrath, and you will be melted inside her.
22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted inside her, and you will know that I the Lord have poured out my wrath on you.’”
(Ezekiel 22:17-22)
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
The Bible says God can gather Israel back in one place for the sole purpose of punishing them as a nation.

17 Then the word of the Lord came to me:
18 “Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver.
19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem.
20 As silver, copper, iron, lead and tin are gathered into a furnace to be melted with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you. 21 I will gather you and I will blow on you with my fiery wrath, and you will be melted inside her.
22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted inside her, and you will know that I the Lord have poured out my wrath on you.’”
(Ezekiel 22:17-22)
Wow, there is plenty of nonsense being promoted around here but this takes it to a new level. Talk about Biblically illiterate! Since you’re so knowledgeable of Ezekiel, how did you miss this passage?

Ezekiel 37:
21 …..This is what the Lord God says: “Behold, I am going to take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.​
23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their offenses; but I will rescue them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.
24 “And My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes and follow them.​
25 And they will live on the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and My servant David will be their leader forever.​
26 And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
27 My dwelling place also will be among them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.​
28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”
FYI, the passage that you quoted was given circa 591 B.C., five years before the Babylonians broke through the walls of Jerusalem and totally destroyed the city and the Temple following a brutal siege, resulting in an untold number of deaths. That is what the passage that you quoted is referring to. And that’s just one of many promises found in the OT of a glorious future for God’s Chosen People, the Children of Israel!
 

sk0rpi0n

Member
FYI, the passage that you quoted was given circa 591 B.C., five years before the Babylonians broke through the walls of Jerusalem and totally destroyed the city and the Temple following a brutal siege, resulting in an untold number of deaths. That is what the passage that you quoted is referring to. And that’s just one of many promises found in the OT of a glorious future for God’s Chosen People, the Children of Israel!

I know but it doesn't change the principle that God can gather israel to punish them.

God did it in the past and will do it again.
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
I know but it doesn't change the principle that God can gather israel to punish them.

God did it in the past and will do it again

So how is it that you know "God did it in the past and will do it again"? Brash, random claims about a subject that you know nothing about are worthless. What would you think if I predicted that God will gather Muslims to Mecca for the sole purpose of punishing them? That's far more likely than your fictional prediction about Israel and Jerusalem!
 

sk0rpi0n

Member
So how is it that you know "God did it in the past and will do it again"? Brash, random claims about a subject that you know nothing about are worthless.

That God will punish israel if they sin is a firmly established concept in the bible. Its not a random claim.
 

balshan

Well-known member
I know but it doesn't change the principle that God can gather israel to punish them.

God did it in the past and will do it again.
God will also punish all the nations.

zeph 3:8

Therefore wait for me,” declares the Lord, “for the day when I rise up to seize the prey. For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Don't forget that God also sends nations to attack Israel as a punishment. Ezekiel 21, for example.
And those nations are punished in return. Israel is the only nation that is the apple of his eye.

Zech 2:8

For thus said the Lord of hosts, after his glory sent me to the nations who plundered you, for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye:

No point to his really. You bat a verse and I will bat one back. Israel is important to God whether other nations like it or not. Nations who touch for whatever reasons risk God's wrath.
 

Arkycharlie

Active member
That God will punish israel if they sin is a firmly established concept in the bible. Its not a random claim.
So, as a Muslim, you think that you're qualified to interpret the Christian Bible? It is a well established fact that the Bible cannot be understood or believed without the indwelling Holy Spirit which you are totally lacking. And your assertion "That God will punish israel IF they sin" reveals your utter lack of understanding of the Biblical concept of sin and the sin nature that we're ALL born with. As the Bible says, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

Has it escaped your attention that we’re now living in “the times of the Gentiles”? Paul elaborates on this subject.

Romans 11:
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;​
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”​
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​
30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,​
31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.​
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

You’re so far over your head in these matters and don’t have a clue as to how little you understand and how far from the truth you are in your silly assertions!
 

sk0rpi0n

Member
And your assertion "That God will punish israel IF they sin" reveals your utter lack of understanding of the Biblical concept of sin
So all those verses in the Bible where God said He would punish Israel for their sins don't actually exist? They were just figments of my imagination? Weird.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
You mean Israel as a nation can disobey God and still be the "apple of His eye"?
Israel's future judgement, 2/3 will be cut off and die.

Zechariah 13:8-9KJV

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
You mean Israel as a nation can disobey God and still be the "apple of His eye"?
Its called grace.
If you have a child that is the apple of your eye, you will stone her for indiscretion.

God has granted us unmerited favor.

Saved by the righteousness of Christ, and not because we do good in stoning our children for indiscretions.
 

sk0rpi0n

Member
Its called grace.
If you have a child that is the apple of your eye, you will stone her for indiscretion.

God has granted us unmerited favor.

Saved by the righteousness of Christ, and not because we do good in stoning our children for indiscretions.

"Saved by the righteousness of Christ" cannot apply to Israelis. The vast majority of them reject Jesus.
 

sk0rpi0n

Member
Israel's future judgement, 2/3 will be cut off and die.

Zechariah 13:8-9KJV

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Interesting that Zechariah also uses the imagery of a refining metals in fire.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Interesting that Zechariah also uses the imagery of a refining metals in fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
"Saved by the righteousness of Christ" cannot apply to Israelis. The vast majority of them reject Jesus.
It applies to ALL men who will believe. Israeli, American, Lebanese, Syrian etc.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It includes you as well, all you need is to believe that The Only Righteous Man that has ever lived, wants to Impute that righteousness to you, when you believe it, and confess Him as your Lord and Savior.
 
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