T
TomFL
Guest
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Why Does Anyone Believe Foolishness?
- Thread starter Sketo
- Start date
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Easy Timothy was born again as a child or he could not have known the holy scriptures. I see you have again used one scripture to attempt to make a sure point. You would condemn me for doing that.
T
TomFL
Guest
Again your comprehension is lacking you were not castigated for using one verse but interpreting that one verse contrary to its context
and if Timothy was born again previous to understanding the scriptures he already would have been saved
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
and would not have needed the scripture to make him wise unto salvation
brightfame52
Well-known member
The natural man cannot know the things of God . So if Timothy knew the scriptures, he wasn't a natural man.
T
TomFL
Guest
Sorry but you logic is defective
you hold an unsaved man is a natural man
Well Paul informs knowing the scriptures is able to get you saved
2 Tim. 3:15 —KJV
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
you have to know them to get saved
preacher4truth
Well-known member
Tom, you appear to not understand the effect of the fall and hold contempt about the state of lost men being spiritually dead and being therefore unable to receive the things of the Spirit in said state.
To you, if God allowed this then He is unfair. This was the gist of another post you made earlier today.
So in your misunderstanding and faulty foundation, you misinterpret the text Paul gave us in 2 Timothy 2:15.
The text isn't about being saved unto eternal life.
The text isn't about how to be saved unto eternal life.
It isn't written to the lost in the world at large on how to be saved eternally.
Paul isn't writing this to Timothy in hopes that he finally gets saved.
It is written to Timothy post-conversion.
Just think more deeply for once Tom. After you literally arguing on here all day long you have zero time to think while spending all day trying to prove you know each and every text, and when one pops in your mind, you misapply it and misuse it.
The text isn't about being saved unto eternal life, if that were the case Paul is telling Timothy he is lost. Not that you're able to receive correction ad far as your track record on here appears from your interactions with others, yet perhaps this will help others dig out the true intent of Paul in speaking those things to Timothy, in its appropriate context.
The Scriptures making one wise to salvation here means to give them further light unto the salvation that is in Christ which is through faith. He isn't inviting Timothy to be saved, but to expand his knowledge of this salvation via the Scriptures he was taught as a child. Paul is telling Timothy those Scriptures he learned as a child, now that he is saved, will make him wise concerning the salvation that is in Christ.
T
TomFL
Guest
You are mistaken
Spiritually dead refers to being separated from God
it does not mean inert or unconscious or corpse like Lazarus dead
2 Tim. 3:15 —KJV
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
Seems timothy knew the scripture and they were sufficient to make one wise unto salvation
How is it he was able to understand the scriptures
Saved unto what
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation
The presumption is contrary to your view - See Calvinist commentary below
prove otherwise
Except that Paul notes knowing the scripture is sufficient to make one wise unto salvation
You need to prove your claim
“The Old Testament taught by his Jewish mother. An undesigned coincidence with 2 Timothy 1:5; Acts 16:1-3. able — in themselves: though through men’s own fault they often do not in fact make men savingly alive. wise unto salvation — that is, wise unto the attainment of salvation. Contrast “folly” (2 Timothy 3:9). Wise also in extending it to others”
(Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, A Commentary, Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, 1871, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 1996), paragraph 22763.)
“Which are able to make thee wise unto salvation. So to instruct you in the way of salvation, that you may find the path to life. Learn hence,”
(Albert Barnes, Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2006), paragraph 27082.)
which are able to make thee wise unto salvation. Men are not wise of themselves; they are naturally without an understanding of spiritual things; and the things of the Spirit of God cannot be known by natural men, because they are spiritually discerned; particularly they are not wise in the business of salvation, of which either they are insensible themselves, and negligent; or foolishly build their hopes of it upon their civility, morality, legal righteousness, or an outward profession of religion: but the Scriptures are able to make men wise and knowing in this respect; for the Gospel is one part of the Scriptures, which is the Gospel of salvation, and shows unto men the way of salvation.
John gill
Which are able to make thee wise unto salvation It is a very high commendation of the Holy Scriptures, that we must not seek anywhere else the wisdom which is sufficient for salvation; as the next verse also expresses more fully. But he states, at the same time, what we ought to seek in the Scripture; for the false prophets also make use of it as a pretext; and therefore, in order that it may be useful to us for salvation, it is necessary to understand the right use of it. Calvin's commentary
You shoot yourself in the foot even in your :explaination Timothy knew the scriptures as a child
He knew them they were not a mystery he could not understand
Last edited by a moderator:
brightfame52
Well-known member
It's steadfast and accurate. If anyone Timothy or anyone else not born again, they can't understand the things of the Spirit of God. 1Cor 2 14 So Timothy was spiritually alive at a young age if he understood the scriptures.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You have shot yourself in the foot a many of times including now. One of your commentary quotes which by the way I showed you already, stated this clearly:
T
TomFL
Guest
Sorry once again you have failed to consider all of the context. That is why you always come to an erroneous conclusion
He stated
but the Scriptures are able to make men wise and knowing in this respect; for the Gospel is one part of the Scriptures, which is the Gospel of salvation, and shows unto men the way of salvation.
John gill
and that is from John Gill who is about as Calvinist as you can get
T
TomFL
Guest
Naturally you ignore the whole testimony of God as is your custom
2 Tim. 3:15 —KJV
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
you have to know them to get saved
Rom. 10:14–17 —KJV
“how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
brightfame52
Well-known member
It was in the context. You always shoot yourself in the foot. The Natural man cannot understand the Gospel, its foolishness to him, for he doesnt have the Spiritual faculties to discern the Spiritual truths of the Gospel.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God.
T
TomFL
Guest
Once again you demstrarte the same two things
1 You don't know what you are talking about
2 You never consider context when you post
Sorry once again you have failed to consider all of the context. That is why you always come to an erroneous conclusion
He stated
but the Scriptures are able to make men wise and knowing in this respect; for the Gospel is one part of the Scriptures, which is the Gospel of salvation, and shows unto men the way of salvation.
John gill
and that is from John Gill who is about as Calvinist as you can get
Hello did you get that
Gill a Calvinist here affirms the scriptures can be understood
that does not shoot me in the foot it supports me
preacher4truth
Well-known member
Your boy @TomFL has a huge problem with accepting the fact that the fall and subsequent spiritual death has rendered man unable to come to God; John 6:44, unable to see the kingdom; John 3:3, and incapable of receiving the things of the Spirit; 1 Corinthians 2:14.
He deems this all unfair and in spite of Jesus showing us these truths of inability he goes against the truth and declares man is able.
It is all about man you see.
This is what happens when one sees man after the fall only needing to choose by his own capabilities, the fall as merely a scraped knee in essence. Pure Flowers and Pelagian heresies at their finest.
All day long he argues against the Glory of God to give it to man. It is nothing but humanism, it isn't orthodox Christianity at all.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You still shooting yourself in the foot.
T
TomFL
Guest
Seems you have a problem understanding scripture in its historical context
The verse does not say man was unable to come to God
but to Christ unless the Father (whose they are - read context ) draws him
This is a covenant transfer from the old to the new
and he draws through his testimony
John 6:45 —KJV
“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
and pertains to the period while Christ was on earth in the period before the cross
after the cross
John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
In regard to Jn 3:3
seeing refers to experiencing the kingdom
follow Christ's argument
John 3:3–18 —KJV
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
The need to be born again
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Nicodemus question how can a man be born again
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jesus reiterates man's need
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Nicodemus repeats his question
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Christ tells him how
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
Finally in regard to 1Co 2:14 i have posted 24 verses which show the gospel can be understood
Your claim depends on a number of assumption
1 the passage is addressing those regenerate and those not regenerate
The passage is about wisdom . Either earthly wisdom or the wisdom which come from the spirit
2 that the things of God includes the revealed gospel as either spoken or written by an apostle or a prophet
when the passage 2:14 is talking about receiving revelation of the mind of God from the spirit not the written or preach word
3 somehow you imagine you can falsify two dozen verses showing the gospel can be understood by your interpretation of one verse
It is a foolish idea
T
TomFL
Guest
You expose yourself as one who does not know what she is talking about
Once again you demonstrate the same two things
1 You don't know what you are talking about
2 You never consider context when you post
Sorry once again you have failed to consider all of the context. That is why you always come to an erroneous conclusion
He stated
but the Scriptures are able to make men wise and knowing in this respect; for the Gospel is one part of the Scriptures, which is the Gospel of salvation, and shows unto men the way of salvation.
John gill
and that is from John Gill who is about as Calvinist as you can get
Hello did you get that
Gill a Calvinist here affirms the scriptures can be understood
that does not shoot me in the foot it supports me
preacher4truth
Well-known member
It is an unfortunate truth: @TomFL takes all passages of Scripture out of context then projects this on others.
But this is a well-known fact; anti-Calvinists always do this.
Takie time and read the book The Potters Freedom which deals with this very thing. One of the biggest anti-Calvinists, the late Norman Geisler is shown to never use Scripture in context in his belligerency against Calvinism.
Ever.
Here are a couple of links concerning The Potters Freedom. One is a free .pdf download.
The Potter's Freedom (9-Part MP3 Lecture Series) | Monergism
by James WhiteJames White begins his nine part review of Norman Geisler's book "Chosen but Free." This is the series that led to the book "The Potter's
www.monergism.com
brightfame52
Well-known member
Jn 3:3 shows the Paul taught what Jesus did. 1 Cor 2 14 is saying the same thing The natural man isnt in the spiritual kingdom of God because hes not spiritual. You have to be spiritually in the kingdom to understand spiritual things like its Gospel. Matt 13
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Lk 8 10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Mk 4 10-12
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
The word without exō a adverb means:
out of doors, one who does not belong
So they dont understand, and God has not given them the ability to understand. Its hid from them Matt 11 25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.