Why I am not a Arminian (Anymore)

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to say. My only point is that man's volition is in itself a gift, an act of grace. Thus, if we are able to choose at all, regardless of the point of reference, it is because of grace! PG does not violate free will it restores it. The error that you are making is to assume that I do not believe that grace is ever irresistible; PG is irresistible because its main focus is on the effects of sin on mankind.
No, Doug, I do understand your position. I keep asking you if you believe in Libertarian Free-Will, but you kinda avoid answering it directing; this is a notion of the Arminian position, yes? Both Calvinists & Arminian hold to Total Depravity, ( Total depravity is a Christian theological doctrine derived from the concept of original sin. It teaches that, as a consequence of man's fall, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered), or in essence unbelief is in our DNA.

So the part you are missing here Doug, is that God regenerates this dead body of sin, and we are made ALIVE by the Holy Spirit that bears witness to the truth, proclaimed by God's word, by God giving us NEW hearts to believe, and NEW minds to understand. God gives us FAITH as a FREE GIFT, which in turn we follow him, because we hear His voice. All of this comes to pass because God made a PROMISE, a COVENANT, A OATH, to redeem us. Redeeming is a Divine Act of God, which includes our Faith to believe. It's effectual because God made it so, through a Promise (Ezekiel 36). Have you read Ezekiel 36? I recommend you look into Classical Covenant Theology, to get a understanding of what I am saying. Kingdom Prologue by Meredith Kline is a excellent read. The Sacred Bond by Brown & Keele, this one is my favortie because its more for the layman, easier to understand.

To say that people who are regenerated can reject or resist God in Salvation, is saying that they possess more power than God and his word. The problem of the incompatibilist conception is that it reverses the biblical order of priority in the relationship between God and human beings. It says, in effect, "I am free, therefore God is circumscription by his freedom." But rather than the will of God being dependent upon the choices of his creatures, Scripture teaches the absolute dependence of all creatures upon God. This is the biblical ground of compatibilism. We cannot define God's right or agency by our perception of freedom.; rather we must understand what freedom means within the biblical witness to a divine sovereignty in which "not one drop of rain falls without God's sure command."

Thomas Aquinas, wrote, that while there are arguments about a freedom pie, and who has the larger share, God or humans. Thomas said that God has his own freedom pie, and in it we live and move. Humans have creaturely freedom, & God has creator freedom.
Under the power of the sinful nature, outside of divine interaction, man would have been 'as bad as he could be' and destroyed himself. PG intervenes and mitigates the power of sin, lessening its overall power on every aspect of mankind. Therefore, we are not as bad as we could be, sin does not effects us as strongly as it would have otherwise. Even Calvinists hold to this.
Calvinist position hold to the extent of original sin to all his progeny, not so much the intensity.
However, sin still affects every single aspect of our being, and we are nonetheless still under its total control in that we are unable to keep from sinning consistently, and that without the drawing of God through the Spirit and the gospel, we would not desire nor be able to respond any way but negatively.
See this statement I do not agree with, here's why. We are in bondage to sin, there's no escaping this plight by our own efforts. Let me clarify, we are dead in our trespasses; here we both agree, being dead, but then God makes us ALIVE in Christ. There's no room here for a 3rd category of semi-alive, but not dead yet. Lets look at this passage, Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

So here again its God's doing for us, when we could never to do. God doesn't take us halfway Doug, and leaves us stranded, that's not a loving Father, but on contrary its a Loving Father saving his children, all the way. Ephesians 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us. This is Love Doug, this is where I find peace, joy, happiness, assurance, strength, hope, love, kindness, blessings, and good news for the ungodly!
There is a natural part of us that is meant to respond to the presence of God and his truth. This is why those "who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law" (Rom 2:14), and why we know when we have done something wrong instinctively. The conscience is God's means of communicating these truths, and your definition of being "dead in sin" would not allow for such spiritual truth.
I disagree, Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

This is for those who want to suppress the truth. They hate the light because it exposes their evil deeds, which they love to do. They love the darkness (John 3). But since God's law is written on their hearts, they are without excuse on the last day.

Finally, as I have stated in my previous post, the Arminian view makes salvation completely by grace through faith because under no circumstance can God be obligated to respond positively to us simply by what we do. God is the offended party, so any positive movement toward man, for any reason, is an act of grace alone!


Doug
But see Doug, the good news is that God descended down to us! The glory belongs to God Alone in our Redemption. He's the one who redeems. He's the only one who will always remain faithful and fulfill his Promise, Covenant, Oath to save his people from their sins! God sends his Holy Spirit to regenerate his people to make they alive in Christ! And of this is EFFECTUAL Grace; meaning God's Word does come to pass.

For by Grace you have been Saved, and this is NOT own your doing, its a FREE GIFT from God (Ephesians 2).
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
No, Doug, I do understand your position. I keep asking you if you believe in Libertarian Free-Will, but you kinda avoid answering it directing; this is a notion of the Arminian position, yes? Both Calvinists & Arminian hold to Total Depravity, ( Total depravity is a Christian theological doctrine derived from the concept of original sin. It teaches that, as a consequence of man's fall, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered), or in essence unbelief is in our DNA.

So the part you are missing here Doug, is that God regenerates this dead body of sin, and we are made ALIVE by the Holy Spirit that bears witness to the truth, proclaimed by God's word, by God giving us NEW hearts to believe, and NEW minds to understand. God gives us FAITH as a FREE GIFT, which in turn we follow him, because we hear His voice. All of this comes to pass because God made a PROMISE, a COVENANT, A OATH, to redeem us. Redeeming is a Divine Act of God, which includes our Faith to believe. It's effectual because God made it so, through a Promise (Ezekiel 36). Have you read Ezekiel 36? I recommend you look into Classical Covenant Theology, to get a understanding of what I am saying. Kingdom Prologue by Meredith Kline is a excellent read. The Sacred Bond by Brown & Keele, this one is my favortie because its more for the layman, easier to understand.

To say that people who are regenerated can reject or resist God in Salvation, is saying that they possess more power than God and his word. The problem of the incompatibilist conception is that it reverses the biblical order of priority in the relationship between God and human beings. It says, in effect, "I am free, therefore God is circumscription by his freedom." But rather than the will of God being dependent upon the choices of his creatures, Scripture teaches the absolute dependence of all creatures upon God. This is the biblical ground of compatibilism. We cannot define God's right or agency by our perception of freedom.; rather we must understand what freedom means within the biblical witness to a divine sovereignty in which "not one drop of rain falls without God's sure command."

Thomas Aquinas, wrote, that while there are arguments about a freedom pie, and who has the larger share, God or humans. Thomas said that God has his own freedom pie, and in it we live and move. Humans have creaturely freedom, & God has creator freedom.

Calvinist position hold to the extent of original sin to all his progeny, not so much the intensity.

See this statement I do not agree with, here's why. We are in bondage to sin, there's no escaping this plight by our own efforts. Let me clarify, we are dead in our trespasses; here we both agree, being dead, but then God makes us ALIVE in Christ. There's no room here for a 3rd category of semi-alive, but not dead yet. Lets look at this passage, Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

So here again its God's doing for us, when we could never to do. God doesn't take us halfway Doug, and leaves us stranded, that's not a loving Father, but on contrary its a Loving Father saving his children, all the way. Ephesians 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us. This is Love Doug, this is where I find peace, joy, happiness, assurance, strength, hope, love, kindness, blessings, and good news for the ungodly!

I disagree, Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

This is for those who want to suppress the truth. They hate the light because it exposes their evil deeds, which they love to do. They love the darkness (John 3). But since God's law is written on their hearts, they are without excuse on the last day.


But see Doug, the good news is that God descended down to us! The glory belongs to God Alone in our Redemption. He's the one who redeems. He's the only one who will always remain faithful and fulfill his Promise, Covenant, Oath to save his people from their sins! God sends his Holy Spirit to regenerate his people to make they alive in Christ! And of this is EFFECTUAL Grace; meaning God's Word does come to pass.

For by Grace you have been Saved, and this is NOT own your doing, its a FREE GIFT from God (Ephesians 2).
Well, LA, I am going to follow the example that I've learned from @ReverendRV and just leave this alone and allow us to ponder and reflect on what's been said. From my perspective, you seem to talking right past everything I've said about all things being by grace. I have never denied "For by Grace you have been Saved, and this is NOT own your doing, its a FREE GIFT from God", but rather affirmed it completely! There is no way that man's actions can obligate God. If man succeeds it is because of God and his graciousness alone, and if he fails it is due to his own failure and none of God.


Doug
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Well, LA, I am going to follow the example that I've learned from @ReverendRV and just leave this alone and allow us to ponder and reflect on what's been said. From my perspective, you seem to talking right past everything I've said about all things being by grace. I have never denied "For by Grace you have been Saved, and this is NOT own your doing, its a FREE GIFT from God", but rather affirmed it completely! There is no way that man's actions can obligate God. If man succeeds it is because of God and his graciousness alone, and if he fails it is due to his own failure and none of God.


Doug
Most Posters here affirm that Grace is Unmerited Favor. Happy Reformation Day! Are you going to mention Reformation Day behind the Pulpit this morning?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And God determined saved Provisionists, Calvinsts and Arminians that disagree with each other and stay that way?

Can we still get thumbs up?

Of course.
Why would you have a problem with that?

It seems to me that you think you have a perfect and exhaustive knowledge of everything (which would in effect, make you God), and you think you know the "perfect" way to bring about salvation, and so if the Bible teaches a way that disagrees with your "infallible" view, then the Bible must be wrong.

Your theology seems to be based on emotions and rationalization, rather than by what Scripture teaches.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
" Kampioen said:
And God determined saved Provisionists, Calvinsts and Arminians that disagree with each other and stay that way
|
Can we still get thumbs up? "

Of course.
Why would you have a problem with that?

You're assuming I have a problem with you accepting they can all saved and stay that way. I don't.

I do though have a problem with the view that they are all predetermined to be opposed to each other, including what to think and say.

It seems to me that you think you have a perfect and exhaustive knowledge of everything (which would in effect, make you God), and you think you know the "perfect" way to bring about salvation, and so if the Bible teaches a way that disagrees with your "infallible" view, then the Bible must be wrong.

It seems to me you're wrong.

Your theology seems to be based on emotions and rationalization, rather than by what Scripture teaches.

It seems to me you're assuming.

It seems to me that it is human philosophy to assume that God can't create a coexisting predetermination and libertarian choice. You are one sided and impose predetermination on Scriptures that suggest libertarianism.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I do though have a problem with the view that they are all predetermined to be opposed to each other, including what to think and say.

You are confusing me with someone who actually cares about your opinion.

It seems to me you're wrong.

You are confusing me with someone who actually cares about your opinion.

It seems to me you're assuming.

You are confusing me with someone who actually cares about your opinion.

You are one sided and impose predetermination on Scriptures that suggest libertarianism.

"Predetermination" is Biblical.
"Libertarianism" is not.
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Well, LA, I am going to follow the example that I've learned from @ReverendRV and just leave this alone and allow us to ponder and reflect on what's been said. From my perspective, you seem to talking right past everything I've said about all things being by grace. I have never denied "For by Grace you have been Saved, and this is NOT own your doing, its a FREE GIFT from God", but rather affirmed it completely! There is no way that man's actions can obligate God. If man succeeds it is because of God and his graciousness alone, and if he fails it is due to his own failure and none of God.


Doug
No problem, I'll leave you with this, 'til next time.


John Wesley, Prevenient Grace defined as follows by "Wesley's Order of Salvation"

"Human beings are totally incapable of responding to God without God first empowering them to have faith. This empowerment is known as Prevenient Grace. Prevenient Grace doesn't saves us but, rather, comes before anything that we do, drawing us to God, making us WANT to come to God, and enabling us to have faith in God. Prevenient Grace is Universal, in as much as all humans receive it, regardless of their having heard of Jesus. It is manifested in the deep-seated desire of most humans to know God."

So Prevenient Grace is not 'Effectual' but rather renders the sinner "neutral"---in this state they must decide for themselves whether to accept or reject Christ (This is why its called Partial Regeneration). Nowhere in the Bible does such a concept exists. There is no Neutral State Doug either you are Dead or Alive. But in Arminian theology this sinner is placed somewhere in limbo where his/hers decision or action is the root of their salvation. Where Christ's works and Cross are not effectual, until this sinner is placed in this partial regenerated state to make Christ's Cross effective to save them, by their action & activity. PG, according to Arminians, convicts , calls (outwardly), enlightens and enables before conversion and makes conversion and faith possible. But this PG that is Universal, given to all mankind that temporarily & partially regenerates them out of his/hers condition of Total Depravity and places them in limbo or a neutral state of Libertarian Free-Will wherein this sinner can accept or reject Christ is Biblically unfounded.

Further Doug, Universal Prevenient Grace given to all mankind regardless of their having heard of Jesus is a contradiction of Scripture. Jesus commands his followers/disciples to go preach the Law & Gospel to every living creature. Preaching the Law convicts sinners of their sinful condition before a Holy and Righteous God. Knowing that this sinful condition brings with it condemnation & death! But only the Holy Spirit & God's Word can convict this sinner of the plight their in before God. Knowing there's no escape from the coming judgement, until the Gospel is preached to them that shows the full richness of Grace & Mercy of God for the ungodly. And only the Holy Spirit can convict the sinner's heart that has been replaced by the Spirit to believe that a Loving Father has save them from their judgement. And this Effectual Grace convicts, calls (inwardly), imputes Faith into their hearts to believe. People believe and run to Christ because they see & understand the awfulness of their sin, and their great need of a Savior; the beauty and sweet tasting water of the Gospel (1 Cor. 2:14).

"John 10: 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Jesus doesn't say, You are not my sheep because you don't believe. Rather, he said the opposite, "You do NOT believe, BECAUSE you are not MY Sheep." And the rest of the passages are explicit that Jesus is saving God's chosen (Elect) people, because God gave them to Christ to be saved.

Prevenient Grace (Arminian View) only takes the sinner part of the way to Salvation, is partially regenerated, is convicted, enlightened, enabled, but still not convinced one way or the other by their Libertarian Free-Will to choose. Even though they were freed from Total Depravity where their will are in bondage to sin, but now their wills are free? How is that so? Where in Scripture does this context exist? Why do some accept while others reject Christ? This is plain and simple not Biblical in the least.

Sorry Doug for the long post, but if I try to be concise, my points are missed, like in my previous posts. I have a lot more to share, but maybe later.

This is why I am NOT a Arminian! Peace!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No problem, I'll leave you with this, 'til next time.


John Wesley, Prevenient Grace defined as follows by "Wesley's Order of Salvation"

"Human beings are totally incapable of responding to God without God first empowering them to have faith. This empowerment is known as Prevenient Grace. Prevenient Grace doesn't saves us but, rather, comes before anything that we do, drawing us to God, making us WANT to come to God, and enabling us to have faith in God. Prevenient Grace is Universal, in as much as all humans receive it, regardless of their having heard of Jesus. It is manifested in the deep-seated desire of most humans to know God."

So Prevenient Grace is not 'Effectual' but rather renders the sinner "neutral"---in this state they must decide for themselves whether to accept or reject Christ (This is why its called Partial Regeneration). Nowhere in the Bible does such a concept exists. There is no Neutral State Doug either you are Dead or Alive. But in Arminian theology this sinner is placed somewhere in limbo where his/hers decision or action is the root of their salvation. Where Christ's works and Cross are not effectual, until this sinner is placed in this partial regenerated state to make Christ's Cross effective to save them, by their action & activity. PG, according to Arminians, convicts , calls (outwardly), enlightens and enables before conversion and makes conversion and faith possible. But this PG that is Universal, given to all mankind that temporarily & partially regenerates them out of his/hers condition of Total Depravity and places them in limbo or a neutral state of Libertarian Free-Will wherein this sinner can accept or reject Christ is Biblically unfounded.

Further Doug, Universal Prevenient Grace given to all mankind regardless of their having heard of Jesus is a contradiction of Scripture. Jesus commands his followers/disciples to go preach the Law & Gospel to every living creature. Preaching the Law convicts sinners of their sinful condition before a Holy and Righteous God. Knowing that this sinful condition brings with it condemnation & death! But only the Holy Spirit & God's Word can convict this sinner of the plight their in before God. Knowing there's no escape from the coming judgement, until the Gospel is preached to them that shows the full richness of Grace & Mercy of God for the ungodly. And only the Holy Spirit can convict the sinner's heart that has been replaced by the Spirit to believe that a Loving Father has save them from their judgement. And this Effectual Grace convicts, calls (inwardly), imputes Faith into their hearts to believe. People believe and run to Christ because they see & understand the awfulness of their sin, and their great need of a Savior; the beauty and sweet tasting water of the Gospel (1 Cor. 2:14).

"John 10: 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Jesus doesn't say, You are not my sheep because you don't believe. Rather, he said the opposite, "You do NOT believe, BECAUSE you are not MY Sheep." And the rest of the passages are explicit that Jesus is saving God's chosen (Elect) people, because God gave them to Christ to be saved.

Prevenient Grace (Arminian View) only takes the sinner part of the way to Salvation, is partially regenerated, is convicted, enlightened, enabled, but still not convinced one way or the other by their Libertarian Free-Will to choose. Even though they were freed from Total Depravity where their will are in bondage to sin, but now their wills are free? How is that so? Where in Scripture does this context exist? Why do some accept while others reject Christ? This is plain and simple not Biblical in the least.

Sorry Doug for the long post, but if I try to be concise, my points are missed, like in my previous posts. I have a lot more to share, but maybe later.

This is why I am NOT a Arminian! Peace!
I'm interested in what you think about the Circumcision of the Heart, and how it stands in relation to Irresistible Grace and Prevenient Grace...

Particularly how half a Circumcision relates to half a Regeneration...
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Exactly, but Calvinism teaches it correctly. Let me explain, in Calvinism Faith is the fruit of our Salvation, not the root. And in Arminianism faith is the root of their Salvation. So Faith becomes subjective not objective; meaning they're bent inward, instead of upward to heaven.

Calvinism is the opposite, they're objective, not subjective; meaning, bent upward to heaven, and not inward. Faith holds to the objective truth which is Christ Alone through Faith Alone!

Sorry brother, but I had to clarify it.
I wonder how you find faith in God as an inward bent idea. Just looking at the phrase "faith in God" tells you it is an outward directed dynamic, as opposed to inward. it is not faith in oneself, or faith in faith, it is faith in God, totally outward.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Would you care to elaborate how our view of the human condition is too lofty? In what way is our human condition less that yours?

Falsehood! Care to explain?



Yes, we do!


We wipe away nothing! God does, but we do not.


God has already done, accomplished, and finished all that was needed to effect salvation, but he also places the contingency of belief at the end of his procession of his activity. John 3:16, along with all the other commands to believe, never say "to those who are given belief" will receive life everlasting! It is God that places this human requirement in the protocol! (Belief is joined by confession and repentance as a tri-unity of human response that must all be accomplished!)


Saying that we are partially regenerated is a straw man argument. We are regenerated, brought back to full life, abundant life, when we believe! That is the scriptural protocol!


Please quote any legitimate Arminian source that teaches this. Grace that will save all is a stronger grace that that extended only to the few. Christ loses nothing in being rejected, for he does not need to be accepted by anyone. He, as God, needs nothing outside of himself to maintain his integrity and being. Christ said "It is finished" from the cross, and his work was done completely. The only question is 'do I believe in what he has done?'



Pure rhetorical balderdash! We believe Christ alone can save, and there is salvation in no other name! No action of man, in and of itself, can effect or obligate God to save him! If we truly believe, we will act like it; and we will act like it only because of the Spirit's power within us enabling us as we act upon that belief. Without him, we can do nothing!


Doug
Very thoughtful response. I pray that something strikes home with a Calvinist or two
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
I'm interested in what you think about the Circumcision of the Heart, and how it stands in relation to Irresistible Grace and Prevenient Grace...

Particularly how half a Circumcision relates to half a Regeneration...
Nice point Miller!!! Very excellent point!!! Share your thoughts on it, and I 'll reply later today, gonna runs some errands.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Nice point Miller!!! Very excellent point!!! Share your thoughts on it, and I 'll reply later today, gonna runs some errands.
The Circumcision of the Heart is the New Birth, IE Regeneration. It is Unmerited, Efficacious Grace. Prevenient Grace would then not even be half a Circumcision which begins before Faith and concludes after Faith. Doug would say that no Circumcision of the Heart takes place until after Illumination and Faith. But Total Depravity is Spiritual Death; IE Separation from God. Likewise, Spiritual Life is Separation from the Spiritual Foreskin. Until our Hearts are Circumcised by the Spirit, our Self-righteousness is as a Filthy Rag. Illumination does nothing to reduce our Total Depravity, so people are still in the Self-righteousness of their Spiritual Foreskins when they believe the Gospel...

Prevenient Grace is a Light that shines in a Dark Place; so what allows Illumination to thwart Total Depravity if our visual acuity remains the same before and after the Illumination? Illumination still leaves our Uncircumcised Self-righteousness at play; right? But if Illumination does adjust our Depraved Visual Acuity, then our spiritual eyes are indeed Regenerated...

Right?
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
The Circumcision of the Heart is the New Birth, IE Regeneration. It is Unmerited, Efficacious Grace. Prevenient Grace would then not even be half a Circumcision which begins before Faith and concludes after Faith. Doug would say that no Circumcision of the Heart takes place until after Illumination and Faith. But Total Depravity is Spiritual Death; IE Separation from God. Likewise, Spiritual Life is Separation from the Spiritual Foreskin. Until our Hearts are Circumcised by the Spirit, our Self-righteousness is as a Filthy Rag. Illumination does nothing to reduce our Total Depravity, so people are still in the Self-righteousness of their Spiritual Foreskins when they believe the Gospel...

Prevenient Grace is a Light that shines in a Dark Place; so what allows Illumination to thwart Total Depravity if our visual acuity remains the same before and after the Illumination? Illumination still leaves our Uncircumcised Self-righteousness at play; right? But if Illumination does adjust our Depraved Visual Acuity, then our spiritual eyes are indeed Regenerated...

Right?
Now Cap this off with a Cherry on the top. People are never Hearing because of their Uncircumcised ears...

Does Prevenient Grace, IE Illumination, circumcize ears? If it does, then the ears are Regenerated before belief in the Truth. If it doesn't, then a person's faith IS as a Filthy Rag...

@eternomade @Johnnybgood
 
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eternomade

Well-known member
Now Cap this off with a Cherry on the top. People are never Hearing because of their Uncircumcised ears...

Does Prevenient Grace, IE Illumination, circumcize ears? If it does, then the ears are Regenerated before belief in the Truth. If it doesn't, then a person's faith IS as a Filthy Rag...

@eternomade @Johnnybgood
It seems that prevenient grace is defined differently now than originally so it is hard for me to understand what it is. What is the compatabilist view? I only see one type of salvific grace in scripture...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It seems that prevenient grace is defined differently now than originally so it is hard for me to understand what it is. What is the compatabilist view? I only see one type of salvific grace in scripture...
It's basically a discussion between Dodger and Doug about Arminian Prevenient Grace, and Dodger liked my question to him; start reading at Post #52. Dodger was claiming that Prevenient Grace halfway Regenerates people before Faith, but Doug disagreed...
 
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