Why I am not a Arminian (Anymore)

[Ladodgers6]

Romans 1:18-23.. reveals that even the most depraved amongst mankind, was at some point being drawn by God.
For they were made to know God is real. So much so, they needed to invent evil thinking to suppress what was made known top them.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all impiety and unrighteousness
of people, who suppress the truth in anti-justice unrighteousness, because what can be
known about God is evident among them, for God made it clear to them.

For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity,
are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse.

How on heaven and earth does this help your position that Grace is resistible? Romans 1-3, speaks of Man's sinful state before a Holy God. How everyone hasn't fallen short of the glory of God. And God's wrath against all unrighteousness, will be rendered upon all who sin! This is Law preaching GeneZ. The Jews thought that they were the exception, but Paul says no, they too, are in the same condition of ALL mankind, under the curse of the Law, because of Sin!

Now I will agree with you, that ALL sinners do resist God in this sinful state. Because they hate God, and love the darkness. They suppress the truth because they rather would like to be their own gods, and do what they want, and what they want, are the desires of the flesh (Ephesians 2). So, sinful man/woman have no excuse, by the Law or by the law written on their hearts, that is the condemnation that kills. This is the ministry of death for sinners! I hope you are following along here, because Paul is preaching the condemnation of sinners under God's Holy Law.

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile
in their reasoning, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God with the likeness of an image of mortal human beings
and birds and quadrupeds and reptiles.

They are left to be without excuse because God made Himself known to them. That takes grace to accomplish. These men kept on resisting the Holy Spirit.

Now Calvinism? In its "I" makes the claim that God's grace is irresistible. That is simply not true. Romans 1:18-23 reveals that clearly.


For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly,
being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse."

OK.... go ahead. Suppress that truth. Or? Accept correction.

Truth can be suppressed by blind dogma.

But what you are missing, GeneZ, is God's Promise, and Oath that God pledged that He will send a Promised Seed (Galatians 3), to save his people from their sins! This Promise or Covenant is not dependent upon our cooperation or activity to make effective. Christ came not to do his will, but the will of his Father. To save those whom the Father gave to him save, and no one will snatch out of his Father's hand. When his sheep hear his voice, they believe and follow Christ (John 10). This is Amazing Grace, Effectual Grace that will come to pass, because God ordained it so, even before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1).

Your Grace on the hand, is cheap Grace because it saves no ones, it depends on a sinner's will to make the Cross of Christ effective by a decision. But the decision was already made, GeneZ. This is what you do not understand! With Christ's last breath on the Cross, he said, "It is Finished!" What is finished GeneZ, the works or will that the Father gave to Christ to fulfill for his people!

 

[fltom]

So, what's your position on it?

I believe that is pre-conversion Paul

Romans 7:9-14 (KJV)
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

This is Paul dead sold under sin

This is Paul in bondage to sin

 

[fltom]

Why do you see that different than what I said?

I speak only of reputation and a veiling of his glory

You statement looks to me to be a loss of divine attributes

Perhaps however that is not your meaning ?

 

[Ladodgers6]

I believe that is pre-conversion Paul

Romans 7:9-14 (KJV)
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

This is Paul dead sold under sin

This is Paul in bondage to sin

I take the opposite position, I believe Paul, no longer Saul, is a believer. First of all, because of his name changed from Saul to Paul. And, second because only righteous men delight in the Law of God (Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members).

Now Psalms 1:

The Way of the Righteous and the Wicked


1Blessed is the man
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
2 but his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law, he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree
planted by streams of water
that yields its fruit in its season,
and its leaf does not wither.
In all that he does, he prospers.

4 The wicked are not so,
but are like chaff that the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;
6 for the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.​

And finally, only believers struggle with sin, not non-believers. Believers now have a raging war between the Spirit and the flesh, and this is the struggle of the Christian life because of this body of death.

Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

This will not end until we receive our glorified bodies! Anyway, this is my position.

 

[fltom]

I take the opposite position, I believe Paul, no longer Saul, is a believer. First of all, because of his name changed from Saul to Paul. And, second because only righteous men delight in the Law of God (Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members).

Now Psalms 1:

The Way of the Righteous and the Wicked


1Blessed is the man
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
2 but his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law, he meditates day and night.
3 He is like a tree
planted by streams of water
that yields its fruit in its season,
and its leaf does not wither.
In all that he does, he prospers.

4 The wicked are not so,
but are like chaff that the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;
6 for the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.​

And finally, only believers struggle with sin, not non-believers. Believers now have a raging war between the Spirit and the flesh, and this is the struggle of the Christian life because of this body of death.

Romans 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

This will not end until we receive our glorified bodies! Anyway, this is my position.

Ok

I disagree as that is Paul killed by the law and still in bondage to it

Not Paul set free from the law of sin and death

But I am carnal, sold under sin—This was probably, in the apostle's letter, the beginning of a new paragraph. I believe it is agreed, on all hands, that the apostle is here demonstrating the insufficiency of the law in opposition to the Gospel. That by the former is the knowledge, by the latter the cure, of sin. Therefore by I here he cannot mean himself, nor any Christian believer: if the contrary could be proved, the argument of the apostle would go to demonstrate the insufficiency of the Gospel as well as the law.


It is difficult to conceive how the opinion could have crept into the Church, or prevailed there, that "the apostle speaks here of his regenerate state; and that what was, in such a state, true of himself, must be true of all others in the same state." This opinion has, most pitifully and most shamefully, not only lowered the standard of Christianity, but destroyed its influence and disgraced its character. It requires but little knowledge of the spirit of the Gospel, and of the scope of this epistle, to see that the apostle is, here, either personating a Jew under the law and without the Gospel, or showing what his own state was when he was deeply convinced that by the deeds of the law no man could be justified,
Adam Clarke's Commentary.


Verses 14-25. The remainder of this chapter has been the subject of no small degree of controversy. The question has been whether it describes the state of Paul before his conversion, or afterwards. It is not the purpose of these Notes to enter into controversy, or into extended discussion. But after all the attention which I have been able to give to this passage, I regard it as describing the state of a man under the gospel, as descriptive of the operations of the mind of Paul subsequent to his conversion. This interpretation is adopted for the following reasons:

(1.) Because it seems to me to be the most obvious. It is that which will strike plain men as being the natural meaning; men who have not a theory to support, and who understand language in its usual sense.

(2.) Because it agrees with the design of the apostle, which is to show that the law is not adapted to produce sanctification and peace. This he had done in regard to a man before he was converted. If this relates to the same period, then it is a useless discussion of a point already discussed. If it relates to that period also, then there is a large field of action, including the whole period after a man's conversion to Christianity, in which the question might still be unsettled, whether the law there might not be adapted to sanctify. The apostle therefore makes thorough work with the argument, and shows that the operation of the law is everywhere the same.

(3.) Because the expressions which occur are such as cannot be understood of an impenitent sinner. Romans 7:15, Romans 7:22.

(4.) Because it accords with parallel expressions in regard to the state of the conflict in a Christian's mind.

(5.) Because there is a change made here from the past tense to the present. In Romans 7:7, etc., he had used the past tense, evidently describing some former state. In Romans 7:14 there is a change to the present, a change inexplicable, except on the supposition that he meant to describe some state different from that before described. That could be no other than to carry his illustration forward in showing the inefficacy of the law on a man in his renewed state; or to show that such was the remaining depravity of the man, that it produced substantially the same effects as in the former condition.

(6.) Because it accords with the experience of Christians, and not with sinners. It is just such language as plain Christians, who are acquainted with their own hearts, use to express their feelings. I admit that this last consideration is not by itself conclusive; but if the language did not accord with the experience of the Christian world, it would be a strong circumstance against any proposed interpretation. The view which is here expressed of this chapter, as supposing that the previous part (Romans 7:7-13) refers to a man in his unregenerate state, and that the remainder describes the effect of the law on the mind of a renewed man, was adopted by studying the chapter itself, without aid from any writer. I am happy, however, to find that the views thus expressed are in accordance with those of the late Rev. Dr. J.P. Wilson, than whom, perhaps, no man was ever better qualified to interpret the Scriptures. He says,

"In the fourth verse, he (Paul) changes to the first person plural, because he intended to speak of the former experience of Christians, who had been Jews. In the seventh verse he uses the first person singular, but speaks in the past tense, because he describes his own experience when he was an unconverted Pharisee. In the fourteenth verse, and unto the end of the chapter, he uses the first person singular, and the present tense, because he exhibits his own experience since he became a Christian and an apostle."
Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

As I noted however there are differing opinions

 

[Ladodgers6]

Ok

I disagree as that is Paul killed by the law and still in bondage to it

Not Paul set free from the law of sin and death

But I am carnal, sold under sin—This was probably, in the apostle's letter, the beginning of a new paragraph. I believe it is agreed, on all hands, that the apostle is here demonstrating the insufficiency of the law in opposition to the Gospel. That by the former is the knowledge, by the latter the cure, of sin. Therefore by I here he cannot mean himself, nor any Christian believer: if the contrary could be proved, the argument of the apostle would go to demonstrate the insufficiency of the Gospel as well as the law.


It is difficult to conceive how the opinion could have crept into the Church, or prevailed there, that "the apostle speaks here of his regenerate state; and that what was, in such a state, true of himself, must be true of all others in the same state." This opinion has, most pitifully and most shamefully, not only lowered the standard of Christianity, but destroyed its influence and disgraced its character. It requires but little knowledge of the spirit of the Gospel, and of the scope of this epistle, to see that the apostle is, here, either personating a Jew under the law and without the Gospel, or showing what his own state was when he was deeply convinced that by the deeds of the law no man could be justified,
Adam Clarke's Commentary.


Verses 14-25. The remainder of this chapter has been the subject of no small degree of controversy. The question has been whether it describes the state of Paul before his conversion, or afterwards. It is not the purpose of these Notes to enter into controversy, or into extended discussion. But after all the attention which I have been able to give to this passage, I regard it as describing the state of a man under the gospel, as descriptive of the operations of the mind of Paul subsequent to his conversion. This interpretation is adopted for the following reasons:

(1.) Because it seems to me to be the most obvious. It is that which will strike plain men as being the natural meaning; men who have not a theory to support, and who understand language in its usual sense.

(2.) Because it agrees with the design of the apostle, which is to show that the law is not adapted to produce sanctification and peace. This he had done in regard to a man before he was converted. If this relates to the same period, then it is a useless discussion of a point already discussed. If it relates to that period also, then there is a large field of action, including the whole period after a man's conversion to Christianity, in which the question might still be unsettled, whether the law there might not be adapted to sanctify. The apostle therefore makes thorough work with the argument, and shows that the operation of the law is everywhere the same.

(3.) Because the expressions which occur are such as cannot be understood of an impenitent sinner. Romans 7:15, Romans 7:22.

(4.) Because it accords with parallel expressions in regard to the state of the conflict in a Christian's mind.

(5.) Because there is a change made here from the past tense to the present. In Romans 7:7, etc., he had used the past tense, evidently describing some former state. In Romans 7:14 there is a change to the present, a change inexplicable, except on the supposition that he meant to describe some state different from that before described. That could be no other than to carry his illustration forward in showing the inefficacy of the law on a man in his renewed state; or to show that such was the remaining depravity of the man, that it produced substantially the same effects as in the former condition.

(6.) Because it accords with the experience of Christians, and not with sinners. It is just such language as plain Christians, who are acquainted with their own hearts, use to express their feelings. I admit that this last consideration is not by itself conclusive; but if the language did not accord with the experience of the Christian world, it would be a strong circumstance against any proposed interpretation. The view which is here expressed of this chapter, as supposing that the previous part (Romans 7:7-13) refers to a man in his unregenerate state, and that the remainder describes the effect of the law on the mind of a renewed man, was adopted by studying the chapter itself, without aid from any writer. I am happy, however, to find that the views thus expressed are in accordance with those of the late Rev. Dr. J.P. Wilson, than whom, perhaps, no man was ever better qualified to interpret the Scriptures. He says,

"In the fourth verse, he (Paul) changes to the first person plural, because he intended to speak of the former experience of Christians, who had been Jews. In the seventh verse he uses the first person singular, but speaks in the past tense, because he describes his own experience when he was an unconverted Pharisee. In the fourteenth verse, and unto the end of the chapter, he uses the first person singular, and the present tense, because he exhibits his own experience since he became a Christian and an apostle."
Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

As I noted however there are differing opinions

Well, you can your own position, I hold to, the believer position, because of the 3 solid points I brought up: 1) His name changed from Saul to Paul after he was converted by Christ himself. 2) verse 22, Paul's delight in God's Law, and cf. Psalms 1, that says only righteous men delight in God's Law, not the wicked (This one for me settles the argument). 3) Only believers struggle with sin, not non-believers.

As far as, sold to sin, I'll respond to that latter today, because it's important to discuss Scripture.

 

[guest1]

I can easily prove it. How?

You tell us how Calvinists see how grace works in salvation.

Tell us straight....

Easy - Salvation is of,by, through the Lord period end of story .

See John 1:13 and Ephesians 2:8-10.

Next

 

[Carbon]

Well, you can your own position, I hold to, the believer position, because of the 3 solid points I brought up: 1) His name changed from Saul to Paul after he was converted by Christ himself. 2) verse 22, Paul's delight in God's Law, and cf. Psalms 1, that says only righteous men delight in God's Law, not the wicked (This one for me settles the argument). 3) Only believers struggle with sin, not non-believers.

As far as, sold to sin, I'll respond to that latter today, because it's important to discuss Scripture.

I agree brother! Amen!

 

[fltom]

Well, you can your own position, I hold to, the believer position, because of the 3 solid points I brought up: 1) His name changed from Saul to Paul after he was converted by Christ himself. 2) verse 22, Paul's delight in God's Law, and cf. Psalms 1, that says only righteous men delight in God's Law, not the wicked (This one for me settles the argument). 3) Only believers struggle with sin, not non-believers.

As far as, sold to sin, I'll respond to that latter today, because it's important to discuss Scripture.

I do not see what the name change has to do with anything
He does not mention his or what it was when he experienced this struggle
second I think Paul was under conviction and realized he was falling short so i disagree with your conclusion here.
The fact that Paul was in bondage to sin is to me all telling and settles the matter

Romans 6:2-12 (KJV)
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Paul there was not dead to sin

Not freed from sin

But again there are views on both sides

 

[GeneZ]

How on heaven and earth does this help your position that Grace is resistible? Romans 1-3, speaks of Man's sinful state before a Holy God. How everyone hasn't fallen short of the glory of God. And God's wrath against all unrighteousness, will be rendered upon all who sin! This is Law preaching GeneZ. The Jews thought that they were the exception, but Paul says no, they too, are in the same condition of ALL mankind, under the curse of the Law, because of Sin!

Now I will agree with you, that ALL sinners do resist God in this sinful state. Because they hate God, and love the darkness. They suppress the truth because they rather would like to be their own gods, and do what they want, and what they want, are the desires of the flesh (Ephesians 2). So, sinful man/woman have no excuse, by the Law or by the law written on their hearts, that is the condemnation that kills. This is the ministry of death for sinners! I hope you are following along here, because Paul is preaching the condemnation of sinners under God's Holy Law.

But what you are missing, GeneZ, is God's Promise, and Oath that God pledged that He will send a Promised Seed (Galatians 3), to save his people from their sins! This Promise or Covenant is not dependent upon our cooperation or activity to make effective. Christ came not to do his will, but the will of his Father. To save those whom the Father gave to him save, and no one will snatch out of his Father's hand. When his sheep hear his voice, they believe and follow Christ (John 10). This is Amazing Grace, Effectual Grace that will come to pass, because God ordained it so, even before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1).

Your Grace on the hand, is cheap Grace because it saves no ones, it depends on a sinner's will to make the Cross of Christ effective by a decision. But the decision was already made, GeneZ. This is what you do not understand! With Christ's last breath on the Cross, he said, "It is Finished!" What is finished GeneZ, the works or will that the Father gave to Christ to fulfill for his people!

Grace has various functions and phases in bringing a soul to Christ. You fail to see that.

And, you do not want to learn. You just want to control and frustrate, to show you have power. Which shows you have no power (grace) at all.

 

[GeneZ]

First of all, you have a problem in presenting your caricature of the Calvinist position on how Grace works. And your comments on Romans 1:18-23 speaks of Total Depravity of the Human race.

Explain, "Irresistible grace."

 

[GeneZ]

I speak only of reputation and a veiling of his glory

You statement looks to me to be a loss of divine attributes

Perhaps however that is not your meaning ?

Not loss of them. Denied Himself of them. Why?

To make himself be as a man. Why?

So He could be our substitute on the Cross. Why?

To confuse those who get frustrated and angry and want immediate simple answers. Answers that do not require the power of grace to have the eyes of their hearts enlightened before they can see why.

God does not want us serving him in the sincerity of our flesh.... Certain doctrines separate the spiritual from those walking after their "religious" flesh.

grace and peace.....

 

[fltom]

Not loss of them. Denied Himself of them. Why?

You statement was
He emptied Himself of his Divine right to be as God in power and ability. In that sense? He emptied himself.

It does not appear that was what yoiu were saying

but if you meant what you say now ok

To make himself be as a man. Why?

Hebrews 2:14-18 (KJV)
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Grace has various functions and phases in bringing a soul to Christ. You fail to see that.

No Sir, I understand that sinners are saved, not by anything they do or will do, but ONLY by the Grace and Mercy of God! The Gospel is not another to do list for us to do. The Gospel is an announcement of what God already fulfilled in his Son for his people. God's Grace is EFFECTIVE and will come to pass, without our cooperation. This is what you are failing to see, and understand.

And, you do not want to learn. You just want to control and frustrate, to show you have power. Which shows you have no power (grace) at all.

Sure GeneZ, look in the mirror before you start to judge other people!

 

[Ladodgers6]

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace​

R.C. Sproul
​

In historic Reformation thought, the notion is this: regeneration precedes faith. We also believe that regeneration is monergistic. Now that's a three-dollar word. It means essentially that the divine operation called rebirth or regeneration is the work of God alone. An erg is a unit of labor, a unit of work. The word energy comes from that idea. The prefix mono- means "one." So monergism means "one working." It means that the work of regeneration in the human heart is something that God does by His power alone—not by 50 percent His power and 50 percent man's power, or even 99 percent His power and 1 percent man's power. It is 100 percent the work of God. He, and He alone, has the power to change the disposition of the soul and the human heart to bring us to faith.

In addition, when He exercises this grace in the soul, He brings about the effect that He intends to bring about. When God created you, He brought you into existence. You didn't help Him. It was His sovereign work that brought you to life biologically. Likewise, it is His work, and His alone, that brings you into the state of rebirth and of renewed creation. Hence, we call this irresistible grace. It's grace that works. It's grace that brings about what God wants it to bring about. If, indeed, we are dead in sins and trespasses, if, indeed, our wills are held captive by the lusts of our flesh and we need to be liberated from our flesh in order to be saved, then in the final analysis, salvation must be something that God does in us and for us, not something that we in any way do for ourselves.​

God's grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it. —R.C. Sproul

However, the idea of irresistibility conjures up the idea that one cannot possibly offer any resistance to the grace of God. However, the history of the human race is the history of relentless resistance to the sweetness of the grace of God. Irresistible grace does not mean that God's grace is incapable of being resisted. Indeed, we are capable of resisting God's grace, and we do resist it. The idea is that God's grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it. It is not that the Holy Spirit drags people kicking and screaming to Christ against their wills. The Holy Spirit changes the inclination and disposition of our wills, so that whereas we were previously unwilling to embrace Christ, now we are willing, and more than willing. Indeed, we aren't dragged to Christ, we run to Christ, and we embrace Him joyfully because the Spirit has changed our hearts. They are no longer hearts of stone that are impervious to the commands of God and to the invitations of the gospel. God melts the hardness of our hearts when He makes us new creatures. The Holy Spirit resurrects us from spiritual death, so that we come to Christ because we want to come to Christ. The reason we want to come to Christ is because God has already done a work of grace in our souls. Without that work, we would never have any desire to come to Christ. That's why we say that regeneration precedes faith.

I have a little bit of a problem using the term irresistible grace, not because I don't believe this classical doctrine, but because it is misleading to many people. Therefore, I prefer the term effectual grace, because the irresistible grace of God effects what God intends it to effect.
​

 

[GeneZ]

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace​

R.C. Sproul
​

In historic Reformation thought, the notion is this: regeneration precedes faith. We also believe that regeneration is monergistic. Now that's a three-dollar word. It means essentially that the divine operation called rebirth or regeneration is the work of God alone. An erg is a unit of labor, a unit of work. The word energy comes from that idea. The prefix mono- means "one." So monergism means "one working." It means that the work of regeneration in the human heart is something that God does by His power alone—not by 50 percent His power and 50 percent man's power, or even 99 percent His power and 1 percent man's power. It is 100 percent the work of God. He, and He alone, has the power to change the disposition of the soul and the human heart to bring us to faith.

In addition, when He exercises this grace in the soul, He brings about the effect that He intends to bring about. When God created you, He brought you into existence. You didn't help Him. It was His sovereign work that brought you to life biologically. Likewise, it is His work, and His alone, that brings you into the state of rebirth and of renewed creation. Hence, we call this irresistible grace. It's grace that works. It's grace that brings about what God wants it to bring about. If, indeed, we are dead in sins and trespasses, if, indeed, our wills are held captive by the lusts of our flesh and we need to be liberated from our flesh in order to be saved, then in the final analysis, salvation must be something that God does in us and for us, not something that we in any way do for ourselves.



However, the idea of irresistibility conjures up the idea that one cannot possibly offer any resistance to the grace of God. However, the history of the human race is the history of relentless resistance to the sweetness of the grace of God. Irresistible grace does not mean that God's grace is incapable of being resisted. Indeed, we are capable of resisting God's grace, and we do resist it. The idea is that God's grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it. It is not that the Holy Spirit drags people kicking and screaming to Christ against their wills. The Holy Spirit changes the inclination and disposition of our wills, so that whereas we were previously unwilling to embrace Christ, now we are willing, and more than willing. Indeed, we aren't dragged to Christ, we run to Christ, and we embrace Him joyfully because the Spirit has changed our hearts. They are no longer hearts of stone that are impervious to the commands of God and to the invitations of the gospel. God melts the hardness of our hearts when He makes us new creatures. The Holy Spirit resurrects us from spiritual death, so that we come to Christ because we want to come to Christ. The reason we want to come to Christ is because God has already done a work of grace in our souls. Without that work, we would never have any desire to come to Christ. That's why we say that regeneration precedes faith.

I have a little bit of a problem using the term irresistible grace, not because I don't believe this classical doctrine, but because it is misleading to many people. Therefore, I prefer the term effectual grace, because the irresistible grace of God effects what God intends it to effect.
​

That was written by someone doing damage control.. I have heard a pastor teaching from the pulpit that God does drag the person into salvation. Who is telling the truth about what Calvinism means? ...

No more damage control. Give what the official dogma was. The one that Armenianism found as offensive. I want what the official meaning was as it came from the likes of Theodore Beza, et al.


God's grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it. —R.C. Sproul


The reality is.. Man's resistance will always come automatically from his flesh. His soul is imprisoned by his sin nature found in his flesh, causing all souls outside of grace to reject God's will.

Keep in mind. Man's soul is not his flesh. Yet, his soul has no choice as long as the flesh is allowed to naturally dominate the soul.

Now, what would happen to a man's soul if God's Spirit suppressed the flesh from affecting the soul? That soul will be able to think for itself.

At that point, the soul will be made free to think for itself. What that freed soul thinks after hearing the Word of God? (faith comes by hearing - Romans 10:17) That decision will determine how that soul made its choice... If that soul chooses to believe what the Word says? The faith God brought his way will be used to define the regeneration about to take place.

We are saved by grace (enabling the soul) through faith (the word of God being accepted).

We are not saved by works. Works= plurality. Works = a system of deeds to do in order to gain God approbation.

We are not saved by works! We are saved by one single work. To believe when our soul is made free to do so while God is suppressing the flesh's effect over the soul!

One work (not works) enters us into salvation...

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plurality) God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Jn 6:28-29

That is neither Armenianism, nor Calvinism!

Saved by one work (believe). Not, works (religious system of things to do, to achieve God's approval).

again...

Romans 1:18-23 is an example of God's grace making possible what is needed to allow a soul to choose... And, then that soul rejecting the faith that was offered. For they were made to know that God is real!

Since those in Romans 1:18-23, had their rejection take place outside of the flesh's influence to reject? (by grace) That rejection can not constitute being a sin. For sin has its source in the flesh's sin nature in control. When a soul freely rejects God's truth in that manner of being freed by grace? It can not be sin. For the soul made the choice freely. What it is? Its evil.

Jesus died for our sins. He did not die for evil. Evil is what sends souls to Hell. Not sin.

grace and peace .........

 

[fltom]

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace​

R.C. Sproul
​

In historic Reformation thought, the notion is this: regeneration precedes faith. We also believe that regeneration is monergistic. Now that's a three-dollar word. It means essentially that the divine operation called rebirth or regeneration is the work of God alone. An erg is a unit of labor, a unit of work. The word energy comes from that idea. The prefix mono- means "one." So monergism means "one working." It means that the work of regeneration in the human heart is something that God does by His power alone—not by 50 percent His power and 50 percent man's power, or even 99 percent His power and 1 percent man's power. It is 100 percent the work of God. He, and He alone, has the power to change the disposition of the soul and the human heart to bring us to faith.

In addition, when He exercises this grace in the soul, He brings about the effect that He intends to bring about. When God created you, He brought you into existence. You didn't help Him. It was His sovereign work that brought you to life biologically. Likewise, it is His work, and His alone, that brings you into the state of rebirth and of renewed creation. Hence, we call this irresistible grace. It's grace that works. It's grace that brings about what God wants it to bring about. If, indeed, we are dead in sins and trespasses, if, indeed, our wills are held captive by the lusts of our flesh and we need to be liberated from our flesh in order to be saved, then in the final analysis, salvation must be something that God does in us and for us, not something that we in any way do for ourselves.



However, the idea of irresistibility conjures up the idea that one cannot possibly offer any resistance to the grace of God. However, the history of the human race is the history of relentless resistance to the sweetness of the grace of God. Irresistible grace does not mean that God's grace is incapable of being resisted. Indeed, we are capable of resisting God's grace, and we do resist it. The idea is that God's grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it. It is not that the Holy Spirit drags people kicking and screaming to Christ against their wills. The Holy Spirit changes the inclination and disposition of our wills, so that whereas we were previously unwilling to embrace Christ, now we are willing, and more than willing. Indeed, we aren't dragged to Christ, we run to Christ, and we embrace Him joyfully because the Spirit has changed our hearts. They are no longer hearts of stone that are impervious to the commands of God and to the invitations of the gospel. God melts the hardness of our hearts when He makes us new creatures. The Holy Spirit resurrects us from spiritual death, so that we come to Christ because we want to come to Christ. The reason we want to come to Christ is because God has already done a work of grace in our souls. Without that work, we would never have any desire to come to Christ. That's why we say that regeneration precedes faith.

I have a little bit of a problem using the term irresistible grace, not because I don't believe this classical doctrine, but because it is misleading to many people. Therefore, I prefer the term effectual grace, because the irresistible grace of God effects what God intends it to effect.
​

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

seeing as regeneration is new life or life from the dead

and that John states

that believing ye might have life through his name.

It seems faith precedes regeneration

 

[GeneZ]

Look how much time is being wasted on studying a dart hole that could be used to grow in knowledge of the entire Bible....

 

[Ladodgers6]

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

seeing as regeneration is new life or life from the dead

and that John states

that believing ye might have life through his name.

It seems faith precedes regeneration

Again, go ahead, place all the strength in the hands of sinners! Because it's obvious that you do not understand a wicked sinner needs to be reborn of the Spirit, in order to see, hear, and believe God.

 

[fltom]

Again, go ahead, place all the strength in the hands of sinners! Because it's obvious that you do not understand a wicked sinner needs to be reborn of the Spirit, in order to see, hear, and believe God.

Is there a reason you failed to address the scripture posted

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

seeing as regeneration is new life or life from the dead

and that John states

that believing ye might have life through his name.

It seems faith precedes regeneration

is you theology founded on scripture

well that is scripture

Why does John write ?

what does he indicate might happenshould they believe