Why I am not a Pelagian

[Dizerner]

Granted what Pelagius believes is disputed and modern proponents don't like the term, but this is to pique curiosity.

Instead the title of this should be, "Why I believe total depravity is correct."


People confuse and conflate what is being claimed by "total depravity." They point out people can respond to the Gospel, but the point being made is that grace is needed—it doesn't happen gracelessly. People point to external things people do that seem good or feelings that one is improving morally, but we all should realize that a thing can look good, yet be in actuality bad. We must not trust our own sense of good and evil and eat from that tree of our own knowledge, but submit to trusting what God says. We can perform a good action for the wrong reasons, and this makes the very most moral and best actions have the possibility of actually being very sinful; as Jesus said, good gifts were given by evil people.


1. I believe in the sin nature because it is foundational to the Work of Jesus on the Cross.

As in Adam all die, by one man sin entered the world. Jesus did not just die for sins on the Cross, and many people overlook the massive amount of Scriptural teaching on what exactly Jesus accomplished for us. He took the old man, the body of sin, the fleshly nature, the first Adam, and it was judged and nullified on the Cross—this is a nature, not just individual measurable crimes, but an actual substance or being.

2. I believe the Law of God is perfection and was given to tutor us to come to Christ instead.

The Law's purpose was to show us up as condemned, inadequate, terminally ill, a ministry of death to our souls, to illustrate and show us our terrible and hopeless plight, to highlight how evil the smallest sin really is, and to take away the most remote hope of being justified in our own goodness and achievements. The Law is not a guide to pulling up our boot straps and trying even harder to morally improve ourselves, because even 99.9% perfection still deserves hell in the light of the purity and height of God's standard.

3. I believe everything that denies the absolute need for grace is in the end a form of self-righteous pride.

Self-righteousness is the most prevalent, sneaky, hard-to-see, and deadly sin for all humanity, because it masquerades as goodness hiding the deep true nature of our depravity, covering it over with behavioral conformity and a veneer of self-esteem. If we need our sin nature crucified with Christ, if the Law was meant to fill us with the terror of our sinful state before God, if the only way to be saved is to remove all the pride in our efforts and our own inherent goodness, then all that is left is an absolute and sheer trust in the Work of Jesus on the Cross.


And it is for these reasons we should all be wary of thinking we are somehow improving ourselves instead of trusting in the Cross more deeply—a wise old saint once said, Christian sanctification is not getting better and better and trying harder and harder, it is rather a deeper awareness of one's own faults and shortcomings, and the acknowledgement that no amount of self-effort will ever improve us unless by the grace of God.

I don't support the term "Pelagian" as I find it too unclear and confusing for people, but at the same time, I would say the idea behind it is a very valid and important one. Not only are there people who deny the need for the atoning work of Christ, but we all at times think we can add something virtuous to it.

I commend all to the grace of God.

 

[ReverendRV]

Granted what Pelagius believes is disputed and modern proponents don't like the term, but this is to pique curiosity.

Instead the title of this should be, "Why I believe total depravity is correct."


People confuse and conflate what is being claimed by "total depravity." They point out people can respond to the Gospel, but the point being made is that grace is needed—it doesn't happen gracelessly. People point to external things people do that seem good or feelings that one is improving morally, but we all should realize that a thing can look good, yet be in actuality bad. We must not trust our own sense of good and evil and eat from that tree of our own knowledge, but submit to trusting what God says. We can perform a good action for the wrong reasons, and this makes the very most moral and best actions have the possibility of actually being very sinful; as Jesus said, good gifts were given by evil people.


1. I believe in the sin nature because it is foundational to the Work of Jesus on the Cross.

As in Adam all die, by one man sin entered the world. Jesus did not just die for sins on the Cross, and many people overlook the massive amount of Scriptural teaching on what exactly Jesus accomplished for us. He took the old man, the body of sin, the fleshly nature, the first Adam, and it was judged and nullified on the Cross—this is a nature, not just individual measurable crimes, but an actual substance or being.

2. I believe the Law of God is perfection and was given to tutor us to come to Christ instead.

The Law's purpose was to show us up as condemned, inadequate, terminally ill, a ministry of death to our souls, to illustrate and show us our terrible and hopeless plight, to highlight how evil the smallest sin really is, and to take away the most remote hope of being justified in our own goodness and achievements. The Law is not a guide to pulling up our boot straps and trying even harder to morally improve ourselves, because even 99.9% perfection still deserves hell in the light of the purity and height of God's standard.

3. I believe everything that denies the absolute need for grace is in the end a form of self-righteous pride.

Self-righteousness is the most prevalent, sneaky, hard-to-see, and deadly sin for all humanity, because it masquerades as goodness hiding the deep true nature of our depravity, covering it over with behavioral conformity and a veneer of self-esteem. If we need our sin nature crucified with Christ, if the Law was meant to fill us with the terror of our sinful state before God, if the only way to be saved is to remove all the pride in our efforts and our own inherent goodness, then all that is left is an absolute and sheer trust in the Work of Jesus on the Cross.


And it is for these reasons we should all be wary of thinking we are somehow improving ourselves instead of trusting in the Cross more deeply—a wise old saint once said, Christian sanctification is not getting better and better and trying harder and harder, it is rather a deeper awareness of one's own faults and shortcomings, and the acknowledgement that no amount of self-effort will ever improve us unless by the grace of God.

I don't support the term "Pelagian" as I find it too unclear and confusing for people, but at the same time, I would say the idea behind it is a very valid and important one. Not only are there people who deny the need for the atoning work of Christ, but we all at times think we can add something virtuous to it.

I commend all to the grace of God.

You are preaching to the choir..

Before I read this, I was wondering why some people believe like us in one area but do not believe like us in another area? For instance, you do a very good job whenever it comes to the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory, and Total Depravity; but you disagree with a lot of Calvinism. This is your Right. But you do such a good job at thinking and understanding these things, I wonder why it's different in some certain areas? You probably wonder the same thing, but about us...

 

[Dizerner]

You are preaching to the choir..

Before I read this, I was wondering why some people believe like us in one area but do not believe like us in another area? For instance, you do a very good job whenever it comes to the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory, and Total Depravity; but you disagree with a lot of Calvinism. This is your Right. But you do such a good job at thinking and understanding these things, I wonder why it's different in some certain areas? You probably wonder the same thing, but about us...

No, I don't wonder anymore why some give in to Calvinism.

edit per mod

 

[ReverendRV]

No, I don't wonder anymore why some give in to Calvinism.

Calvinism gives a sinful source of security, and we all deeply want that.

Would you say that one reason you do not believe like us is because we have a desire for security, and you don't?

 

[Dizerner]

Would you say that one reason you do not believe like us is because we have a desire for security, and you don't?

No.

It's because I really admit my heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, instead of just piously stating it.

Those believing in EDD, the divine decree of all things, never seem to question the motivations for what they believe.

I constantly question mine.

Do you?

 

[ReverendRV]

No.

It's because I really admit my heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, instead of just piously stating it.

Those believing in EDD, the divine decree of all things, never seem to question the motivations for what they believe.

I constantly question mine.

Do you?

I do. I'm sure you know that I call myself the most liberal five-point Calvinists there ever was...

There is an advantage in that, in discussions with people like you...

 

[Dizerner]

I do. I'm sure you know that I call myself the most liberal five-point Calvinists there ever was...

That has absolutely nothing to do with questioning your motives for believing what you do.

It's actually just looking like some bragging point.

And this shows me, that self-deception is a big possibility here.

 

[ReverendRV]

That has absolutely nothing to do with questioning your motives for believing what you do.

It's actually just looking like some bragging point.

And this shows me, that self-deception is a big possibility here.

It is a bragging point. It doesn't help me whenever it comes to questioning my motives either. It helps me whenever it comes to having discussions with people like you though..

 

[Sketo]

Calvinists and Armenians = Both internal Grace and external Grace is necessary in order for a fallen sinner to believe the preaching of the cross is, not foolishness but, the power and wisdom of God unto salvation.

Pelagians and Provisionists = Only external Grace is necessary in order for a fallen sinner to believe the preaching of the cross is, not foolishness but, the power and wisdom of God unto salvation.

...

 

[His clay]

No, I don't wonder anymore why some give in to Calvinism.

edit per mod

I don't see the security factor at all even relevant. Bible first, and if the Bible deals with the security factor, then so be it. But to say that we put the cart before the horse and that my desire for security leads to a Calvinistic interpretation seems to me to be conspiracy theory at best and profoundly uncharitable slander at worst.

 

[His clay]

Granted what Pelagius believes is disputed and modern proponents don't like the term, but this is to pique curiosity.

Instead the title of this should be, "Why I believe total depravity is correct."


People confuse and conflate what is being claimed by "total depravity." They point out people can respond to the Gospel, but the point being made is that grace is needed—it doesn't happen gracelessly. People point to external things people do that seem good or feelings that one is improving morally, but we all should realize that a thing can look good, yet be in actuality bad. We must not trust our own sense of good and evil and eat from that tree of our own knowledge, but submit to trusting what God says. We can perform a good action for the wrong reasons, and this makes the very most moral and best actions have the possibility of actually being very sinful; as Jesus said, good gifts were given by evil people.


1. I believe in the sin nature because it is foundational to the Work of Jesus on the Cross.

As in Adam all die, by one man sin entered the world. Jesus did not just die for sins on the Cross, and many people overlook the massive amount of Scriptural teaching on what exactly Jesus accomplished for us. He took the old man, the body of sin, the fleshly nature, the first Adam, and it was judged and nullified on the Cross—this is a nature, not just individual measurable crimes, but an actual substance or being.

2. I believe the Law of God is perfection and was given to tutor us to come to Christ instead.

The Law's purpose was to show us up as condemned, inadequate, terminally ill, a ministry of death to our souls, to illustrate and show us our terrible and hopeless plight, to highlight how evil the smallest sin really is, and to take away the most remote hope of being justified in our own goodness and achievements. The Law is not a guide to pulling up our boot straps and trying even harder to morally improve ourselves, because even 99.9% perfection still deserves hell in the light of the purity and height of God's standard.

3. I believe everything that denies the absolute need for grace is in the end a form of self-righteous pride.

Self-righteousness is the most prevalent, sneaky, hard-to-see, and deadly sin for all humanity, because it masquerades as goodness hiding the deep true nature of our depravity, covering it over with behavioral conformity and a veneer of self-esteem. If we need our sin nature crucified with Christ, if the Law was meant to fill us with the terror of our sinful state before God, if the only way to be saved is to remove all the pride in our efforts and our own inherent goodness, then all that is left is an absolute and sheer trust in the Work of Jesus on the Cross.


And it is for these reasons we should all be wary of thinking we are somehow improving ourselves instead of trusting in the Cross more deeply—a wise old saint once said, Christian sanctification is not getting better and better and trying harder and harder, it is rather a deeper awareness of one's own faults and shortcomings, and the acknowledgement that no amount of self-effort will ever improve us unless by the grace of God.

I don't support the term "Pelagian" as I find it too unclear and confusing for people, but at the same time, I would say the idea behind it is a very valid and important one. Not only are there people who deny the need for the atoning work of Christ, but we all at times think we can add something virtuous to it.

I commend all to the grace of God.

I can appreciate this post on several different levels. I'll share a few.

-I like how you appeal to 2 Corinthians 3:7 in point two: "ministry of death."
-I appreciate your focus on the importance of the empty hand of faith. Too often I see posters proclaiming their faith to be their savior rather than demonstrating that the object of their faith is Christ. Personally, this issue is one of my greatest pet peeves, for it has eternal consequences.
-I appreciate the connection between one's view of depravity and one's view of faith. In like manner of my point above, this issue is utterly critical.
-Regarding your main three points, I find myself in almost complete agreement.
-I especially appreciated your point about outwardly righteous in deed, but inwardly one may full of dead men's bones. This was something that I realized in college and before (long ago). A person can easily do the right thing with a profoundly wrong reason. My teen years were in a private Christian school. Many people were able to make it through the rules and do some good things; but as you got to know them, they were about as spiritually alive as a stone.

Again, I really appreciate this opening post. I hope that I've communicated how I appreciate it. I could probably keep going, but this will do for now. Thanks Dizerner for your thoughts.

 

[Kampioen]

Calvinists and Armenians = Both internal Grace and external Grace is necessary in order for a fallen sinner to believe the preaching of the cross is, not foolishness but, the power and wisdom of God unto salvation.

Pelagians and Provisionists = Only external Grace is necessary in order for a fallen sinner to believe the preaching of the cross is, not foolishness but, the power and wisdom of God unto salvation.

Pelagianism to my understanding has the salvation as more of an example of a Christian life to follow rather than a specific occurrence.

 

[Rockson]

I don't see the security factor at all even relevant. Bible first, and if the Bible deals with the security factor, then so be it. But to say that we put the cart before the horse and that my desire for security leads to a Calvinistic interpretation seems to me to be conspiracy theory at best and profoundly uncharitable slander at worst.

You were talking to another poster but there can be many varied reasons why one believes what they do. That includes Calvinists AND Non-Calvinists like...everybody.

1) It can be the way the other poster said. Perhaps not just with everybody.
2) Tradition. People can embrace tradition the way they were raised who all their Bible teachers were growing up.
3) They spent considerable funds to become educated a certain way. People like to believe they've invested their time wisely.
4) They may sincerely believe certain text teach what they teach. (even though they don't)
5) With Calvinism I have no problem believing many are sincere. In one sense Calvinism gives an appearance of a great humility before God, that is when they say EVERYTHING is ordained, everything it's all God. That appears like giving ultimate glory to God not knowing and appreciating it goes absolutely contrary to the gracious and kind loving nature of God.
6) Calvinists view on sovereignty. God's all powerful therefore anything that would be his will would therefore come into reality. Seems like one is honoring God's omnipotence but they fail to appreciate any entity or person with power doesn't always use it to get their own way. eg A parent with wealth and means could force their offspring to do a certain thing. Doesn't mean they would though for other good principles come into play which causes them to show restraint or back off.

 

[Simpletruther]

You were talking to another poster but there can be many varied reasons why one believes what they do. That includes Calvinists AND Non-Calvinists like...everybody.

1) It can be the way the other poster said. Perhaps not just with everybody.
2) Tradition. People can embrace tradition the way they were raised who all their Bible teachers were growing up.
3) They spent considerable funds to become educated a certain way. People like to believe they've invested their time wisely.
4) They may sincerely believe certain text teach what they teach. (even though they don't)
5) With Calvinism I have no problem believing many are sincere. In one sense Calvinism gives an appearance of a great humility before God, that is when they say EVERYTHING is ordained, everything it's all God. That appears like giving ultimate glory to God not knowing and appreciating it goes absolutely contrary to the gracious and kind loving nature of God.
6) Calvinists view on sovereignty. God's all powerful therefore anything that would be his will would therefore come into reality. Seems like one is honoring God's omnipotence but they fail to appreciate any entity or person with power doesn't always use it to get their own way. eg A parent with wealth and means could force their offspring to do a certain thing. Doesn't mean they would though for other good principles come into play which causes them to show restraint or back off.

This is all good.

However, the problem with semi pelagian view is that, at the end of the day something besides Gods grace makes the difference.

Everyone gets God's grace to believe, but some separate themselves from the pack with their......choice.

Scripture says we have nothing that we did not recieive.

We didn't just recieve "the potential for faith" we received faith itself graciously from God.

 

[ReverendRV]

And you see Reverend this is why Calvinism can't be a true workable reality in what it says God does. Here you've been a Calvinist for years and yet you WONDER why people don't believe the same as you. But another time you'll say God ordains everything.... every thought, every action anything that has taken place which would include the type of thinking somebody embraced. Reality though swings you back to knowing you have a valid position to wondering why people think different. You do this for the reason that everything the way God created you and all of creation goes along this line, God does NOT ordain every thought and action to take place.

Do you get my point? Why would you be wondering anything? Yet you do. I find it strange too that some Calvinists stoop to mocking people saying they have the same characteristics as a nutty movie character which i was compared to by a Calvinist recently. So are they believing God created me as someone they can demean and be unkind to? After all if God ordained me to have the type of thinking I have then how can it ever be considered my fault? The way their lives play out however is inconsistent for they act like everything is not ordained. That's what I mean . Your paradigm can't work in the real world and because it can't there's no way God gave it. He'd never do that to you.

Now special note: Are non-Calvinists always sweet and nice? I'm sure not. But Calvinists are claiming to have this special insight EVERYTHING is ordained. Doesn't seem then there should be any place then they should be blaming anyone especially holding up others to ridicule. PEACE.

The reason I wonder things is because I have Agency...

My comment was meant to be that a person can use his logic and come up with the truth concerning a doctrine, but disagrees about other doctrines. It's a entirely different argument than what you are suggesting

 

[Christian]

You were talking to another poster but there can be many varied reasons why one believes what they do. That includes Calvinists AND Non-Calvinists like...everybody.

1) It can be the way the other poster said. Perhaps not just with everybody.
2) Tradition. People can embrace tradition the way they were raised who all their Bible teachers were growing up.
3) They spent considerable funds to become educated a certain way. People like to believe they've invested their time wisely.
4) They may sincerely believe certain text teach what they teach. (even though they don't)
5) With Calvinism I have no problem believing many are sincere. In one sense Calvinism gives an appearance of a great humility before God, that is when they say EVERYTHING is ordained, everything it's all God. That appears like giving ultimate glory to God not knowing and appreciating it goes absolutely contrary to the gracious and kind loving nature of God.
6) Calvinists view on sovereignty. God's all powerful therefore anything that would be his will would therefore come into reality. Seems like one is honoring God's omnipotence but they fail to appreciate any entity or person with power doesn't always use it to get their own way. eg A parent with wealth and means could force their offspring to do a certain thing. Doesn't mean they would though for other good principles come into play which causes them to show restraint or back off.

We just started ( kicked off ) our mens discipleship group at church where my son in law is a pastor and oversees the growth groups and study groups. He was working with a young ( early 20's ) man but could only take him so far in discipleship. So I will now be meeting with him on Saturday mornings one on one. My son in law shared with me since the young man is a calvinist that he was intending on going to a reformed/calvinist seminary. We talked last week after the mens group was over and I suggested that he should go to a non calvinist seminary to be challenged. After much discussion he agreed with me since all it would do is not challenge his current belief's but just reinforce them.

my son in law is deconstructing right now with calvinism which is why he was hoping to pair me up with him on discipleship. So I'm very excited to say the least for the opportunity that God has placed before me with this young man. Prayers appreciated brother .

So I can see Gods Sovereign hand in this where he has paired us together to pursue God, be his disciples and seek the truth from his word with an open mind.

 

[Rockson]

We just started ( kicked off ) our mens discipleship group at church where my son in law is a pastor and oversees the growth groups and study groups. He was working with a young ( early 20's ) man but could only take him so far in discipleship. So I will now be meeting with him on Saturday mornings one on one. My son in law shared with me since the young man is a calvinist that he was intending on going to a reformed/calvinist seminary. We talked last week after the mens group was over and I suggested that he should go to a non calvinist seminary to be challenged. After much discussion he agreed with me since all it would do is not challenge his current belief's but just reinforce them.

my son in law is deconstructing right now with calvinism which is why he was hoping to pair me up with him on discipleship. So I'm very excited to say the least for the opportunity that God has placed before me with this young man. Prayers appreciated brother .

So I can see Gods Sovereign hand in this where he has paired us together to pursue God, be his disciples and seek the truth from his word with an open mind.

That's great and good that he's open to see a different perspective. I'll pray for you and your work with the young man today!

 

[Christian]

That's great and good that he's open to see a different perspective. I'll pray for you and your work with the young man today!

Amen and thank you. I saw him yesterday before the church service and he seems really excited to begin our discipleship.

 

[Theo1689]

No, I don't wonder anymore why some give in to Calvinism.

edit per mod

I've seen many non-Calvinists speculate on why "some give in to Calvinism", and so far, they've all been wrong.

 

[Theo1689]

It's because I really admit my heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things, instead of just piously stating it.

So do Calvinists.

Those believing in EDD, the divine decree of all things, never seem to question the motivations for what they believe.

What is your evidence of that?
Have you ever asked them?

Our motivations for what we believe are in staying true to God's word, the Bible.

I constantly question mine.

Do you?

Of course we do.