Why I can't reconcile preterism with the Bible.

[squirrelyguy]

This could be a long thread, but I will make it a short one in hopes that people will actually read it.

It seems to me that Preterists have a problem; they are forced to allegorize vast swaths of Bible prophecy in order to make it all happen before 70 AD. The main reason they attempt to do this is because they interpret Christ's words in the Olivet Discourse ("this generation") to refer to those living at that time.

This interpretation is entirely unnecessary. It is reasonable, based on the context, to suppose that Christ is referring to a future generation. The reason for this is that in all three Synoptic Gospels, He gives the parable of the budding fig tree immediately before saying "This generation will not pass away till all things take place." It is the generation that sees the fig tree budding which will not pass away before all these prophecies are fulfilled.

Also, it is worth considering the possibility that Christ (as well as those who wrote the books of the Bible) taught and wrote with an audience in mind other than the ones who were hearing them speak. This is why Christ speaks in the second person (addressing His audience as "you" over and over) in the Olivet Discourse. The "you" that He speaks to is the generation reading His words that sees the fig tree budding. The book of Revelation is explicitly given with a future audience in mind, for it says in 1:3 "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." It also says in 22:18-19 that those who add to the book would be given plagues, and those who take away from the book would have their part taken away from the Book of Life. John assumes that the book he is writing will not only be read, but copied and transmitted to others; this necessarily involves future generations.

Now before you object to what I've said; isn't it so much more natural to interpret these words of Christ in this manner, than to interpret them in the Preterist manner and have to allegorize, spiritualize, and otherwise make of none effect so many Bible prophecies? Which is easier to do and remain intellectually consistent?

 

[Sojourna of Truth]

This could be a long thread, but I will make it a short one in hopes that people will actually read it.

It seems to me that Preterists have a problem; they are forced to allegorize vast swaths of Bible prophecy in order to make it all happen before 70 AD. The main reason they attempt to do this is because they interpret Christ's words in the Olivet Discourse ("this generation") to refer to those living at that time.

This interpretation is entirely unnecessary. It is reasonable, based on the context, to suppose that Christ is referring to a future generation. The reason for this is that in all three Synoptic Gospels, He gives the parable of the budding fig tree immediately before saying "This generation will not pass away till all things take place." It is the generation that sees the fig tree budding which will not pass away before all these prophecies are fulfilled.

Also, it is worth considering the possibility that Christ (as well as those who wrote the books of the Bible) taught and wrote with an audience in mind other than the ones who were hearing them speak. This is why Christ speaks in the second person (addressing His audience as "you" over and over) in the Olivet Discourse. The "you" that He speaks to is the generation reading His words that sees the fig tree budding. The book of Revelation is explicitly given with a future audience in mind, for it says in 1:3 "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." It also says in 22:18-19 that those who add to the book would be given plagues, and those who take away from the book would have their part taken away from the Book of Life. John assumes that the book he is writing will not only be read, but copied and transmitted to others; this necessarily involves future generations.

Now before you object to what I've said; isn't it so much more natural to interpret these words of Christ in this manner, than to interpret them in the Preterist manner and have to allegorize, spiritualize, and otherwise make of none effect so many Bible prophecies? Which is easier to do and remain intellectually consistent?

To remain intellectually consistent...one must be aware THIS generation, per Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32 does not mean THAT [future] generation...

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto YOURSELVES...

32 Ye serpents, YE generation of vipers how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

33 Wherefore, behold, I send unto YOU prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them shall YE scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

(Watch this)

34 That "upon" YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom YE "slew" between the temple and the altar.

35 Verily I say "unto" YOU, All these things shall come "upon" THIS generation.

Jesus said, ALL those things were coming "upon" the generation that "slew" Zechariah son of Barachias between the temple and the altar.

The temple and altar was destroyed, AD70, so it could not be a future generation!

 

[Reformedguy]

To remain intellectually consistent...one must be aware THIS generation, per Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32 does not mean THAT [future] generation...

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto YOURSELVES...

32 Ye serpents, YE generation of vipers how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

33 Wherefore, behold, I send unto YOU prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them shall YE scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

(Watch this)

34 That "upon" YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom YE "slew" between the temple and the altar.

35 Verily I say "unto" YOU, All these things shall come "upon" THIS generation.

Jesus said, ALL those things were coming "upon" the generation that "slew" Zechariah son of Barachias between the temple and the altar.

The temple and altar was destroyed, AD70, so it could not be a future generation!

Great post, What is cool as well is that a generation in the Bible is 40 years. The time between the crucifixtion and the judgement of Jerusalem is about 40 years.

 

[SovereignGrace]

To remain intellectually consistent...one must be aware THIS generation, per Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32 does not mean THAT [future] generation...

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto YOURSELVES...

32 Ye serpents, YE generation of vipers how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

33 Wherefore, behold, I send unto YOU prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them shall YE scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

(Watch this)

34 That "upon" YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom YE "slew" between the temple and the altar.

35 Verily I say "unto" YOU, All these things shall come "upon" THIS generation.

Jesus said, ALL those things were coming "upon" the generation that "slew" Zechariah son of Barachias between the temple and the altar.

The temple and altar was destroyed, AD70, so it could not be a future generation!

The futurist Bible has “this future, sometime three, four, maybe even five millennia later generation”.

 

[Sojourna of Truth]

This could be a long thread, but I will make it a short one in hopes that people will actually read it.

It seems to me that Preterists have a problem; they are forced to allegorize vast swaths of Bible prophecy in order to make it all happen before 70 AD. The main reason they attempt to do this is because they interpret Christ's words in the Olivet Discourse ("this generation") to refer to those living at that time.

This interpretation is entirely unnecessary. It is reasonable, based on the context, to suppose that Christ is referring to a future generation. The reason for this is that in all three Synoptic Gospels, He gives the parable of the budding fig tree immediately before saying "This generation will not pass away till all things take place." It is the generation that sees the fig tree budding which will not pass away before all these prophecies are fulfilled.

Also, it is worth considering the possibility that Christ (as well as those who wrote the books of the Bible) taught and wrote with an audience in mind other than the ones who were hearing them speak. This is why Christ speaks in the second person (addressing His audience as "you" over and over) in the Olivet Discourse. The "you" that He speaks to is the generation reading His words that sees the fig tree budding. The book of Revelation is explicitly given with a future audience in mind, for it says in 1:3 "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." It also says in 22:18-19 that those who add to the book would be given plagues, and those who take away from the book would have their part taken away from the Book of Life. John assumes that the book he is writing will not only be read, but copied and transmitted to others; this necessarily involves future generations.

Now before you object to what I've said; isn't it so much more natural to interpret these words of Christ in this manner, than to interpret them in the Preterist manner and have to allegorize, spiritualize, and otherwise make of none effect so many Bible prophecies? Which is easier to do and remain intellectually consistent?

You said, it seems Preterist have a problem, they are forced to allegorize vast swaths of Bible prophecy in order to make it all happen before 70 AD. It was Jesus that said, 'ALL things written' would be fulfilled 'the days of vengeance,' per Luke 21:22, making all Bible prophecy happen by that time.

Thus, it seems Futurist have the problem, they allegorize Bible prophecy to make it happen in the future. They allegorize Jesus words 'THIS generation' to make it THAT generation, thousands of years into the future, and completely ignore ALL the 'time text,' that explicitly say the prophecies in the book of Revelation MUST SHORTLY come to pass, and the TIME is AT HAND, per Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6,10.
Despite the grave warning not to add, or take away from the prophecy in the book, per Revelation 22:18,19, Futurist still do it to maintain their futurist paradigm ... hopefully, unwittingly.

 

[squirrelyguy]

It was Jesus that said, 'ALL things written' would be fulfilled 'the days of vengeance,' per Luke 21:22, making all Bible prophecy happen by that time.

All Bible prophecy? Paul warned Timothy about men like Hymenaeus and Philetus who had strayed concerning the truth and were overthrowing the faith of some by teaching that the resurrection was already past (2 Tim. 2:17-18). It seems evident to me that the return of Christ and the resurrection from the dead, when they do happen, will be universally undeniable. There won't be anyone wrangling over the meaning of Scripture to ascertain whether these prophecies have come to pass since they will be historically certain!

 

[Sojourna of Truth]

All Bible prophecy? Paul warned Timothy about men like Hymenaeus and Philetus who had strayed concerning the truth and were overthrowing the faith of some by teaching that the resurrection was already past (2 Tim. 2:17-18). It seems evident to me that the return of Christ and the resurrection from the dead, when they do happen, will be universally undeniable. There won't be anyone wrangling over the meaning of Scripture to ascertain whether these prophecies have come to pass since they will be historically certain!

Yes! ALL things written, include all Bible prophecy!

If, the return of Christ and the resurrection from the dead would be universally undeniable... How could anyone faith be overthrown, if they had not witnessed those events?

 

[shnarkle]

This could be a long thread, but I will make it a short one in hopes that people will actually read it.

It seems to me that Preterists have a problem; they are forced to allegorize vast swaths of Bible prophecy in order to make it all happen before 70 AD. The main reason they attempt to do this is because they interpret Christ's words in the Olivet Discourse ("this generation") to refer to those living at that time.

This interpretation is entirely unnecessary. It is reasonable, based on the context, to suppose that Christ is referring to a future generation. The reason for this is that in all three Synoptic Gospels, He gives the parable of the budding fig tree immediately before saying "This generation will not pass away till all things take place." It is the generation that sees the fig tree budding which will not pass away before all these prophecies are fulfilled.

Also, it is worth considering the possibility that Christ (as well as those who wrote the books of the Bible) taught and wrote with an audience in mind other than the ones who were hearing them speak. This is why Christ speaks in the second person (addressing His audience as "you" over and over) in the Olivet Discourse. The "you" that He speaks to is the generation reading His words that sees the fig tree budding. The book of Revelation is explicitly given with a future audience in mind, for it says in 1:3 "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." It also says in 22:18-19 that those who add to the book would be given plagues, and those who take away from the book would have their part taken away from the Book of Life. John assumes that the book he is writing will not only be read, but copied and transmitted to others; this necessarily involves future generations.

Now before you object to what I've said; isn't it so much more natural to interpret these words of Christ in this manner, than to interpret them in the Preterist manner and have to allegorize, spiritualize, and otherwise make of none effect so many Bible prophecies? Which is easier to do and remain intellectually consistent?

There's not need to allegorize or spiritualize any of it. Christ defines his terms. He plainly points out that he did not come to condemn, but that his words would, i.e. they would come to pass as his prophecies stipulated.

He points out that the gospel would go out into all the world, and Paul points out that this was in fact the case while he was writing his letters.

If you look at these descriptions in the old testament, e.g. stars falling, moon and sun failing to shine their light etc. These are all clear indications of God's judgement coming to pass, and Jesus' descriptions are no different, and they came to pass just as he had predicted.

So in the final analysis, it is those who think that there is some yet future event to transpire who are the ones allegorizing these texts.

 

[101G]

To all,

where many make their mistake at is the Lord Jesus return is a two fold return, see my post, in "Jesus the Echad" .. https://forums.carm.org/threads/jesus-the-echad.3532/post-343149

by our Lord's two fold returns it answer a lot of unanswered questions, and reprove many "doctrines", that are incorrect, and at the same time fulfils many mis-understood prophecies

hope that helps.

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[Sojourna of Truth]

To all,

where many make their mistake at is the Lord Jesus return is a two fold return, see my post, in "Jesus the Echad" .. https://forums.carm.org/threads/jesus-the-echad.3532/post-343149

by our Lord's two fold returns it answer a lot of unanswered questions, and reprove many "doctrines", that are incorrect, and at the same time fulfils many mis-understood prophecies

hope that helps.

PICJAG, 101G.

Very thoughtful!

If, I may address two points...the Lord not knowing the time of his second Coming, and the twofold return:

1. I agree, Jesus did not know the day and hour of his second coming ... but, he definitely knew "the generation" per Matthew 23:29-36; 24:29-34; Mark 13:24-30; Luke 21:20-22.

2. The day of Pentecost was not the coming of the Lord, but the coming of the Holy Spirit. The scriptures speak of only two Comings of the Lord:

1. His birth to atone for the sins of the world, per 1 Timothy 1:15.
2. To bring salvation and judge the world, per Hebrews 9:28...that was in your post.

 

[101G]

2. The day of Pentecost was not the coming of the Lord, but the coming of the Holy Spirit. The scriptures speak of only two Comings of the Lord:

First thanks for the reply, second, JESUS is the Holy Spirit in his Amalgamation of FIRST, and LAST. example, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Lets breakdown these verses. #16"another Comforter?". the term "ANOTHER" is the Greek word,

G243 ALLOS:, Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. what do this means? a numerical difference? answer the "ECHAD of God as the "EQUAL SHARE" of himself in Flesh, as the First "COMFORTER" and now in Spirit as the "ANOTHER" Comforter.

lets see it, Jesus the "FIRST" "Comforter" in Flesh. scripture, Luke 2:25 "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."

see that word, "consolation" it's the Greek word,
G3874 παράκλησις paraklesis (pa-ra'-klee-sis) n.
1. an imploration, entreaty (urgent request (for mercy or help)).
2. an exhortation (urgent counsel, encouragement, or caution).
3. a comfort, solace.
[from G3870]
KJV: comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty
Root(s): G3870

One who Gives COMFORT is a "COMFORTER", one who gives HELP is a "HELPER". and One who Give "COUNSEL" is a "COUNSELLOR". supportive scripture, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

so God, the Lord Jesus in FLESH is the FIRST "COMFORTER", now the ANOTHER "COMFORTER", is Jesus Glorified in the Spirit, scripture, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." QUESTION, "What was the glory that JESUS had before the World was? answer... "SPIRIT".

now back to John 14 and verse 18, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you". you here is audience relevance, and to prove this point, Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Luke 9:27 "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." and the KINGDOM of God came on Pentecost, and Yes that was Jesus the Holy Spirit. listen John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" and he was glorified in his DEATH by the Cross, IN HIS "RESURRECTION".

so clearly the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost.

NOW to believe and Understand that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit, the term "Comforter",
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822

now "ADVOCATE" it is the Greek word,
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822

1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

this is the exact same WORD, but notice definition #2, "intercessor". question, who is our intercessor? answer, Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

BINGO, that's the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit, our advocate the "Comforter".

so he Jesus the Holy Spirit did come on the DAY of PENTECOST.

there is musch more even in John 14...... so much more.

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[Sojourna of Truth]

First thanks for the reply, second, JESUS is the Holy Spirit in his Amalgamation of FIRST, and LAST. example, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Lets breakdown these verses. #16"another Comforter?". the term "ANOTHER" is the Greek word,

G243 ALLOS:, Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. what do this means? a numerical difference? answer the "ECHAD of God as the "EQUAL SHARE" of himself in Flesh, as the First "COMFORTER" and now in Spirit as the "ANOTHER" Comforter.

lets see it, Jesus the "FIRST" "Comforter" in Flesh. scripture, Luke 2:25 "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."

see that word, "consolation" it's the Greek word,
G3874 παράκλησις paraklesis (pa-ra'-klee-sis) n.
1. an imploration, entreaty (urgent request (for mercy or help)).
2. an exhortation (urgent counsel, encouragement, or caution).
3. a comfort, solace.
[from G3870]
KJV: comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty
Root(s): G3870

One who Gives COMFORT is a "COMFORTER", one who gives HELP is a "HELPER". and One who Give "COUNSEL" is a "COUNSELLOR". supportive scripture, Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

so God, the Lord Jesus in FLESH is the FIRST "COMFORTER", now the ANOTHER "COMFORTER", is Jesus Glorified in the Spirit, scripture, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." QUESTION, "What was the glory that JESUS had before the World was? answer... "SPIRIT".

now back to John 14 and verse 18, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you". you here is audience relevance, and to prove this point, Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Luke 9:27 "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." and the KINGDOM of God came on Pentecost, and Yes that was Jesus the Holy Spirit. listen John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" and he was glorified in his DEATH by the Cross, IN HIS "RESURRECTION".

so clearly the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost.

NOW to believe and Understand that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit, the term "Comforter",
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822

now "ADVOCATE" it is the Greek word,
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822

1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

this is the exact same WORD, but notice definition #2, "intercessor". question, who is our intercessor? answer, Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

BINGO, that's the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit, our advocate the "Comforter".

so he Jesus the Holy Spirit did come on the DAY of PENTECOST.

there is musch more even in John 14...... so much more.

PICJAG, 101G.

Thanks, for your detailed response!

I agree, with much of what you said, especially about the Holy Spirit being the "Paraclete."

1 John 5:7 FOR there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Thus, the Holy Ghost is the third person of the Godhead, the "paraclete," Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor, Helper that came on the day of Pentecost, per Acts 2:4, He is not who Hebrews 9:28 was speaking of coming the second time.

That was Jesus Christ, the Word, the second person of the Godhead, and Savior of the world, that came the "first" time to atone for the sins of the world and the "second" time to bring salvation and judge.

 

[Iconoclast]

There's not need to allegorize or spiritualize any of it. Christ defines his terms. He plainly points out that he did not come to condemn, but that his words would, i.e. they would come to pass as his prophecies stipulated.

He points out that the gospel would go out into all the world, and Paul points out that this was in fact the case while he was writing his letters.

If you look at these descriptions in the old testament, e.g. stars falling, moon and sun failing to shine their light etc. These are all clear indications of God's judgement coming to pass, and Jesus' descriptions are no different, and they came to pass just as he had predicted.

So in the final analysis, it is those who think that there is some yet future event to transpire who are the ones allegorizing these texts.

yes exactly, isa13 isa34 joel2

 

[101G]

1 John 5:7 FOR there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

first thanks for the reply, but here's your ERROR, 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

these, these, these? why not say they, which indicate persons, but the term "These", indicate "TITLES". see it now? these are ONE, not "THEY" are one.

Thus, the Holy Ghost is the third person of the Godhead, the "paraclete," Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor, Helper that came on the day of Pentecost, per Acts 2:4, He is not who Hebrews 9:28 was speaking of coming the second time.

Error, listen, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

here is where you ERROR at, "APPEAR" vs "MANIFESTATION". listen the Spirit JESUS, MANIFESTED in the Spiritual Gifts on the DAY of Pentecost. this is a "MANIFESTATION" of him, Jesus the Holy Spirit. remember all eyes did not see him in manifestation at pentecost, listen, John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also." John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

HOLD IT RIGHT THERE, understand Jesus the Holy Spirit "MANIFESTED" himself in, in, in, us by the Spiritual Gifts, and the world did not "SEE" this, but in his "APPERANCE"... EVERY EYE will see him then, scripture, Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

see Sojourna of Truth, that's the two fold return. First in Spirit, on the day of Pentecost, in "MANIFESTATION", and his second coming or Parousia will be in GLORIFIED Flesh for all the world to see.

so the Second coming of Christ Jesus is two fold, First in MANIFESTATION, (not all eyes saw him, for he is in us), but also his second coming is in APPERANCE, when EVERY EYE will see him.

Hope this helps.

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[Sojourna of Truth]

first thanks for the reply, but here's your ERROR, 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

these, these, these? why not say they, which indicate persons, but the term "These", indicate "TITLES". see it now? these are ONE, not "THEY" are one.


Error, listen, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

here is where you ERROR at, "APPEAR" vs "MANIFESTATION". listen the Spirit JESUS, MANIFESTED in the Spiritual Gifts on the DAY of Pentecost. this is a "MANIFESTATION" of him, Jesus the Holy Spirit. remember all eyes did not see him in manifestation at pentecost, listen, John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also." John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

HOLD IT RIGHT THERE, understand Jesus the Holy Spirit "MANIFESTED" himself in, in, in, us by the Spiritual Gifts, and the world did not "SEE" this, but in his "APPERANCE"... EVERY EYE will see him then, scripture, Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

see Sojourna of Truth, that's the two fold return. First in Spirit, on the day of Pentecost, in "MANIFESTATION", and his second coming or Parousia will be in GLORIFIED Flesh for all the world to see.

so the Second coming of Christ Jesus is two fold, First in MANIFESTATION, (not all eyes saw him, for he is in us), but also his second coming is in APPERANCE, when EVERY EYE will see him.

Hope this helps.

PICJAG, 101G.

101G,

I agree, the three are one ... yet, they are three separate but equal beings, it is "the mystery of godliness," per 1 Timothy 3:16.

Thus, Jesus Christ's "First Coming" and manifestation was at his birth, not on the day of Pentecost.

Jesus, Second Coming was during the first century generation, which agree with the verse you alluded to...

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he come with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they 'also' which PIERCED him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I believe those that "pierced" Jesus could only see him coming in the clouds, if they were alive when he came...do you agree?

 

[robycop3]

To remain intellectually consistent...one must be aware THIS generation, per Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32 does not mean THAT [future] generation...

Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites...

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto YOURSELVES...

32 Ye serpents, YE generation of vipers how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

33 Wherefore, behold, I send unto YOU prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them shall YE scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

(Watch this)

34 That "upon" YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom YE "slew" between the temple and the altar.

35 Verily I say "unto" YOU, All these things shall come "upon" THIS generation.

Jesus said, ALL those things were coming "upon" the generation that "slew" Zechariah son of Barachias between the temple and the altar.

The temple and altar was destroyed, AD70, so it could not be a future generation!

You have a HUGE prob...ALL those things did NOT occur in "that" generation.
No antichrist
No AOD.
No great worldwide trib
No marka the beast
And certainly, no return of Jesus, on great glory & power, seen by all.

 

[robycop3]

You said, it seems Preterist have a problem, they are forced to allegorize vast swaths of Bible prophecy in order to make it all happen before 70 AD. It was Jesus that said, 'ALL things written' would be fulfilled 'the days of vengeance,' per Luke 21:22, making all Bible prophecy happen by that time.

The Revelation was not then written, nor 2 Thess. 2.

Thus, it seems Futurist have the problem, they allegorize Bible prophecy to make it happen in the future. They allegorize Jesus words 'THIS generation' to make it THAT generation, thousands of years into the future, and completely ignore ALL the 'time text,' that explicitly say the prophecies in the book of Revelation MUST SHORTLY come to pass, and the TIME is AT HAND, per Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6,10.
Despite the grave warning not to add, or take away from the prophecy in the book, per Revelation 22:18,19, Futurist still do it to maintain their futurist paradigm ... hopefully, unwittingly.

The rest of the events simply didn't then occur. Jesus has certainly NOT yet returned. Proof? The world goes right on as it did in 65 AD & 71 AD. Jesus said His return would be in great power & glory, seen by ALL, even those who pierced Him. They'll see His return from hades, of course, as they all died long ago.

 

[Iconoclast]

You have a HUGE prob...ALL those things did NOT occur in "that" generation.
No antichrist
No AOD.
No great worldwide trib
No marka the beast
And certainly, no return of Jesus, on great glory & power, seen by all.

all did happen, you cannot grasp it

 

[robycop3]

all did happen, you cannot grasp it

Hard to grasp something that's not there.
Now, if you believe they've happened, please provide some PROOF, not just rumors, legends, & guesswork.

 

[Reformedguy]

The Revelation was not then written, nor 2 Thess. 2.

The rest of the events simply didn't then occur. Jesus has certainly NOT yet returned. Proof? The world goes right on as it did in 65 AD & 71 AD. Jesus said His return would be in great power & glory, seen by ALL, even those who pierced Him. They'll see His return from hades, of course, as they all died long ago.

Are those "who pierced Him" still around? lol