Why I reject Word of Faith as false

Dizerner

Well-known member
I see Word of Faith as defined as God always has available to believers the ability to have complete health and wealth if they just confess positively and have enough faith. I do not personally associate Word of Faith with any particular doctrine of the atonement as I have not found it a consistent emphasis in their applied theology. The idea that God always is able to give wealth and health to believers is competently unscriptural, and the verses supporting God’s desire to bless people are never balanced out with the verses saying that God honors the poor and the suffering.

Word of Faith doctrine has terrible fruit in the life of the believer. It makes a person legalistic and judgmental towards everyone who isn’t as blessed and healed as they are, and they become like Job’s Pharisaical friends, with no compassion and support for those in need, and blaming the victim's faith instead of helping them, while heaping further burdens of condemnation and works righteousness on them. It puffs people up with self-righteous pride when they think their faith is bringing them in all these blessings that other people could have if they just tried harder, and instead of health and wealth being a responsibility to help the poor with, as the Bible teaches, wealth becomes a spiritual status symbol for how godly you are if you just had enough faith, and the stronger people end up beating down those who are weaker with shame and guilt.

One last thing Word of Faith does to a person, is put them in frantic self-effort to constantly believe harder and better in the midst of trials, always attributing the fault to the person's faith somewhere, instead of it being a simple trial of faith because of a fallen world. This wraps one up in legalistic efforts to put forth more perfect faith to make the problems go away, instead of focusing on developing character and trusting God through mysterious problems, and this legalistic idea also heaps condemnation on a person for all their failed efforts at getting health and wealth, as well as making the goal itself idolatrous. This ends up creating great potentials of offense at God for failed expectations, and God not living up to a mistaken idea of what his promises really mean, as if God were obligated to perform more than his Word really declares he will perform.

I was extremely deep into this false doctrine, and for all those caught up in such an error, I urge you to pray and meditate on the above points.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Companion post in the series:

 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
wof is dead. None left to pick up the cause.
WoF doesn't answer by soundbite and triumphalism. WoF takes no joy in the demise of the critics' long held error. :eek: :rolleyes:

A reasonable and well phrased post deserves a thoughtful, thought provoking...and deeply spiritual response! ;)
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
I want to answer this a little at a time, because there is so much in it...and so much we've debated over the years that the review in itself has value.
I see Word of Faith as defined as God always has available to believers the ability to have complete health and wealth if they just confess positively and have enough faith.
You know you're setting up a straw man, right?...Once you've defined WoF this way, you only have to say "Nuff said." Word of Faith was defined by Paul..."speak with your mouth and believe in your heart," and it was exemplified by Jesus in Mark 12 where He cursed the fig tree, and then invited the disciples to do the same thing, promising, if they believe and do not doubt, "...they will have whatsoever they say." This does not require God to "have available. This instructs the believer that, "as many as they be, the promises of God, they are all 'Yes' in Christ Jesus, and so the 'Amen' can be spoken." Every promise of God is a license to pray believing, because we have this confidence: It is God's will to keep His promises, and "...This is the confidence that we have in Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And we know that if He hears us, we already have what we desired of Him." Word of faith, the doctrine, teaches believers to believe what the promise says as it is written, without interpretation. And here's where the error lies: The promise is not.a given, but a license to pray, and the obligation and responsibility to pray until the promise comes, Elijah announced rain. He prayed. It did not rain. He prayed again. It did not rain. It did not rain until the seventh time, but he prayed until it rained. Elijah was as the persistent widow before the unjust judge, because this is what faith demands.

In terms of health and wealth...health is promised: Psalm 103 and 91, and Isaiah. You have license, therefore, to pray believing. Wealth must be defined in heaven's terms, and not in terms of jets and pockets full of cash. Heaven is where gold is trampled on and friends are the treasure, unlike here, where we trample on one another to get the gold. Paul defines prosperity in 2 Corinthians 9:6Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver.a 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things, at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9As it is written:

“He has scattered abroad His gifts to the poor;
His righteousness endures forever.”
10Now He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your store of seed and will increase the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be enriched in every way to be generous on every occasion, so that through us your giving will produce thanksgiving to God. 12For this ministry of service is not only supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanksgiving to God.


That is what Christian prosperity looks like, not in abundance of stuff, but in fruitful stewardship unto abundance of thanksgiving. Whenever this gets perverted, it is perversion.

I do not personally associate Word of Faith with any particular doctrine of the atonement as I have not found it a consistent emphasis in their applied theology. The idea that God always is able to give wealth and health to believers is competently unscriptural, and the verses supporting God’s desire to bless people are never balanced out with the verses saying that God honors the poor and the suffering.
Sure they are...WoF that misses the end of Hebrews 11 misses part of the Word, and is thus incomplete. WoF must not add to the words of the book. WoF must not subtract from the words of the book. WoF's paradigm starts with the Bible, and finds its root in the Book of Acts, and its sustenance from the entirety of each of the books. There is no inconvenient verse that refutes the basic tenet: God's word is true. He is a bulwark to those who put their faith in Him.

[snip to next post]
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I see Word of Faith as defined as
And then you give the popular definition of the TOXIC "Word of Faith" paradigm, and follow it up with all the evil fruit that it can cause when you follow the PARADIGM instead of the Bible.

I was fairly local to "the Glory Barn" in Warsaw Indiana, where Hobart Freeman taught WOF at a level nobody would DARE to do today. To be part of his church, you were required to drop ALL your insurances, NEVER go to a Doctor, and NEVER take medication (including over the counter pain meds). Hobart's "Body count" had exceeded 100 of his congregation members by the time a fully treatable infection (That he had been "Healed of") killed him. And yet there were NOTABLE MIRACLES that occurred in that congregation.

There is a BIBLICAL Word of Faith, of course that doesn't follow your TOXIC definition. Mark 11:22-24 presents it in a nutshell, in combination with Heb 11:1, and Rom 10:17.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Word of Faith doctrine has terrible fruit in the life of the believer. It makes a person legalistic and judgmental towards everyone who isn’t as blessed and healed as they are, and they become like Job’s Pharisaical friends, with no compassion and support for those in need, and blaming the victim's faith instead of helping them, while heaping further burdens of condemnation and works righteousness on them. It puffs people up with self-righteous pride when they think their faith is bringing them in all these blessings that other people could have if they just tried harder, and instead of health and wealth being a responsibility to help the poor with, as the Bible teaches, wealth becomes a spiritual status symbol for how godly you are if you just had enough faith, and the stronger people end up beating down those who are weaker with shame and guilt.
You're actually describing what any pharisaical religion does, that replaces the Word of God with doctrines made by man. Bad WoF doesn't have a monopoly on false religion. Bad Calvinism, bad Wesleyanism...they all have this in common: They are built, not on the Word of God, but on doctrine taught by rote. When Kenneth Hagin's books are read as formulaic rites to be performed to "make God act", they are tantamount to witchcraft. I once went to a purportedly WoF church that spent 90 minutes of its two hour service extracting tithes. They had a tithe extraction ministry. Nothing more. I ran their children's ministry for years, and was left with the last fifteen minutes to minister to kids, because they stayed in the service while the "Holy Spirit was moving."

When I work with WoFers in the field, we do not check out each others' doctrine, because we have a field that is ripe to the harvest, and a common goal. We encourage one another in our faith, and spend our time together building each other up. Invariably, our time alone is spent building ourselves up by means of praying in the Holy Spirit as Jude and Paul exhort us to do. Many do not think of themselves as WoFers, and because they have been taught as you have seen...they reject that form of Christianity without examining the basic tenets of faith. That never mattered to me...because I would never present myself as WoF, but as Baptist to the Baptists, and Calvinist to the Calvinists. And we were not without fruit in the streets.

One last thing Word of Faith does to a person, is put them in frantic self-effort to constantly believe harder and better in the midst of trials, always attributing the fault to the person's faith somewhere, instead of it being a simple trial of faith because of a fallen world.
That is very sad.

I've never seen a mustard seed "working in frantic self-effort to constantly..." grow. The seed grows naturally, as it is watered and husbanded. It needs no work. Faith that is not growing is dead...plant more seed.

We walk not by sight. That is basic to understanding the Word of Faith...the promise of the Word is Truth, as the Word is Truth. When circumstances seem to obfuscate or deny or resist the promise, they put our faith to the test. I had a guy last night tell me that our friend who died of Parkinson's disease was right to consign himself to the disease...there is no hope for Parkinson's disease. WoF says the promise trumps even Parkinsons...The guy who was so kindly explaining to me the omnipotence of Parkinson's was trying to do me and our men's group a favor. I thanked him. I still do not walk by Parkinson's. Faith that is not tried is only theory, and we are to count every trial as joy, because the trial of our faith works in our favor...every time.

I was under a Conservative Baptist pastor who would get the flu every fall. I didn't, and I'd pray for him that he would be delivered of this. He explained to me that everybody gets the flu, and that I would too. He yelled at me when I told him I wouldn't. I still have not got the flu. And I've had other ailments including cancer, that the world and its corruption offer. It's not whether or not Satan puts on us what he put on Job...he's out to sift us as wheat. It's really whether or not we blame God for our circumstances.

This wraps one up in legalistic efforts to put forth more perfect faith to make the problems go away, instead of focusing on developing character and trusting God through mysterious problems, and this legalistic idea also heaps condemnation on a person for all their failed efforts at getting health and wealth, as well as making the goal itself idolatrous. This ends up creating great potentials of offense at God for failed expectations, and God not living up to a mistaken idea of what his promises really mean, as if God were obligated to perform more than his Word really declares he will perform.
Jesus said, "If you abide in my word you are my disciples indeed...you will know the truth and the truth will make us free." That's WoF "formulaic faith." Not more effort. More of the knowledge of God. We see David suffered...and we see David never consigned himself to his enemies. We see Job wished he'd been aborted. WoF sees the contrast, and chooses David's attitude toward the circumstances, whatsoever they may be.

I was extremely deep into this false doctrine, and for all those caught up in such an error, I urge you to pray and meditate on the above points.
It's good to avoid false doctrine.
 
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BlessedAnomaly

Active member
And then you give the popular definition of the TOXIC "Word of Faith" paradigm, and follow it up with all the evil fruit that it can cause when you follow the PARADIGM instead of the Bible.

I was fairly local to "the Glory Barn" in Warsaw Indiana, where Hobart Freeman taught WOF at a level nobody would DARE to do today. To be part of his church, you were required to drop ALL your insurances, NEVER go to a Doctor, and NEVER take medication (including over the counter pain meds). Hobart's "Body count" had exceeded 100 of his congregation members by the time a fully treatable infection (That he had been "Healed of") killed him. And yet there were NOTABLE MIRACLES that occurred in that congregation.

There is a BIBLICAL Word of Faith, of course that doesn't follow your TOXIC definition. Mark 11:22-24 presents it in a nutshell, in combination with Heb 11:1, and Rom 10:17.
I have always agreed with your "toxic" word of faith definitions, for the most part.

But your "biblical" word of faith definitions lack muster as well.

We have NEVER seen a mountain lifted up and cast into the sea. Not even by Jesus. We have NEVER seen a sycamore tree pulled up by its roots and cast into the sea. Not even by Jesus. These verses are not meant to be taken as literal.

I watched a beautiful young woman exude the kind of faith that is talked about here in Mark 11, Heb 11 and Rom 10. I know that readers of this who want to support either Word of Faith or want to support some form of literal or practical faith will call me a liar, or call me blinded by love, or call me whatever. I tried to get her to take natural paths and she would not turn left or right. The Word meant what it said and, by golly, she was healed and waiting for the cancer to disappear. Her mountain never uprooted. Her sycamore tree held her down no matter how much faith she showed in the face of it.

And the typical response of "oh I'm sorry for what you went through;" "I have no words;" "I can't speak to your situation." I'm not looking for sympathy at this point. That's not why I bring it all up anymore.

The biblical texts that say she will be protected, she will be healed, she will be made whole -- they are at best parables to tell the believer to stay strong, believe, hold fast; they are at worst lies. For if they do not mean what they say, then they simply are not facts.

I have yet to meet anyone who "believed and received it" all the time. I've seen coincidences. I've seen luck. If you are blessed in life, it isn't because you "did something." It was a blessing available to all, like a nice sunset or a peaceful day. Not because you were good, but simply because a peaceful day came your way.

Psalm 91:4-7 (NET)
He will shelter you with his wings;​
you will find safety under his wings.​
His faithfulness is like a shield or a protective wall.​
5 You need not fear the terrors of the night,​
the arrow that flies by day,​
6 the plague that stalks in the darkness,​
or the disease that ravages at noon.​
7 Though a thousand may fall beside you,​
and a multitude on your right side,​
it will not reach you.​

Why if she found safety under his wings, why if he is faithful, why if she did not fear this disease...

Why did it stalk and ravage at noon, and tear her body apart? Why if thousands fall to this disease, but she was faithful, did it reach her?

The Word did not mean what it said.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
I want to start with this: God raised Jesus from the dead.

I have adequate proof to maintain that assertion, and adequate understanding to say that the resurrection vindicates Jesus' words.

I always start there. There is a lot I do not know, but I know Jesus is Lord, and that God raised Him from the dead...so that understanding these enigmatic last days will include what happened two thousand years ago...and remembering that James (and actually Job and David and Solomon) gave me license to write posts like the one you wrote.
I have always agreed with your "toxic" word of faith definitions, for the most part.

But your "biblical" word of faith definitions lack muster as well.

We have NEVER seen a mountain lifted up and cast into the sea. Not even by Jesus. We have NEVER seen a sycamore tree pulled up by its roots and cast into the sea. Not even by Jesus. These verses are not meant to be taken as literal.
Because mountains and trees don't move in scripture does not suggest that they won't, or that it's not literal.

I have seen an infestation of fleas disappear in one hour after prayer. I've seen an infestation of caterpillars so thick that the trunk of the tree was furry, end in a pile of dead caterpillars after prayer. And again, it's not because I've seen it that I'm blessed...I'm blessed because, not having seen, I believe what Jesus said.

I watched a beautiful young woman exude the kind of faith that is talked about here in Mark 11, Heb 11 and Rom 10. I know that readers of this who want to support either Word of Faith or want to support some form of literal or practical faith will call me a liar, or call me blinded by love, or call me whatever. I tried to get her to take natural paths and she would not turn left or right. The Word meant what it said and, by golly, she was healed and waiting for the cancer to disappear. Her mountain never uprooted. Her sycamore tree held her down no matter how much faith she showed in the face of it.

And the typical response of "oh I'm sorry for what you went through;" "I have no words;" "I can't speak to your situation." I'm not looking for sympathy at this point. That's not why I bring it all up anymore.
Words are inadequate. Simple as that.
The biblical texts that say she will be protected, she will be healed, she will be made whole -- they are at best parables to tell the believer to stay strong, believe, hold fast; they are at worst lies. For if they do not mean what they say, then they simply are not facts.
No...they are promises.
I have yet to meet anyone who "believed and received it" all the time. I've seen coincidences. I've seen luck. If you are blessed in life, it isn't because you "did something." It was a blessing available to all, like a nice sunset or a peaceful day. Not because you were good, but simply because a peaceful day came your way.

Psalm 91:4-7 (NET)
He will shelter you with his wings;​
you will find safety under his wings.​
His faithfulness is like a shield or a protective wall.​
5 You need not fear the terrors of the night,​
the arrow that flies by day,​
6 the plague that stalks in the darkness,​
or the disease that ravages at noon.​
7 Though a thousand may fall beside you,​
and a multitude on your right side,​
it will not reach you.​

Why if she found safety under his wings, why if he is faithful, why if she did not fear this disease...

Why did it stalk and ravage at noon, and tear her body apart? Why if thousands fall to this disease, but she was faithful, did it reach her?

The Word did not mean what it said.
It meant everything it said...everything.

And I see Hebrews 11:. 36Still others endured mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.

37They were stoned, they were sawed in two, they were put to death by the sword. They went around in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, oppressed, and mistreated. 38The world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and hid in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

Faith does not commend itself by what you have received...otherwise, James would lose his apostleship, and Peter would be highly commended. He would not have run and hidden after meeting at Mark's house. Something of reality struck the Word of Faith movement that began at Pentecost that day James was beheaded. The promise didn't change...but the chances of having "sorrow upon sorrow" upon the death of an Epaphroditus made the fight of faith all that more real.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego knew "God was able..." They had no idea that He would, and they went into the furnace rather than renouncing their faith. The outcome was not clear to them until they were joined in the warmth by a friend.

I still cannot find an excuse not to believe or an alternative to believing God and taking Him at His word. My wife goes in to have her lymph nodes looked at on Friday.
 
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Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I have always agreed with your "toxic" word of faith definitions, for the most part.

But your "biblical" word of faith definitions lack muster as well.

We have NEVER seen a mountain lifted up and cast into the sea. Not even by Jesus. We have NEVER seen a sycamore tree pulled up by its roots and cast into the sea. Not even by Jesus. These verses are not meant to be taken as literal.
BUT - they do indicate the theoretical MAGNITUDE if what is POSSIBLE BY FAITH in the power of God to do incredible things.

Faith always starts with HIM anyway - Man can't generate FAITH internally. It's always by HIS WORD to you, just like it was for Abraham, and David. plenty of illustrations of FAITH in the Old Testament, and the New, and the potential POWER it has. The REAL PROBLEM with Word of Faith - is that there's NO FAITH involved, just presumption, magic words, and methodology (If you follow this formula, God will "HAVE TO DO" what you want Him to). And then when folks don't get what they want out of their "Theology", they throw the baby out with the bath water.

I'm dying of Advanced Coronary Artery disease, and lately the old familiar symptoms are back in force - it's hospital time again. I HAVE NO FAITH (No WORD OF GOD TO ME -ROM 10:17) that God has any plans to eliminate the condition which will probably kill me in the next few years or so.

I Know He heals - I've seen Him do it. But that means nothing in my case. I have NO specific FAITH that HE intends to heal me.

The Words in the bible are all well and good, but produce nothing unless they're YOURS.

Folks quote Mar 11:22-24, but skip over the stated conditions under which it operates (Believe in your heart-NOTHING DOUBTING). SO - how do you NOT DOUBT - what you doubt.

But if I don't survive this latest go-round, what's the problem?? I'll be OUTTA HERE, and in a better place as a Born Again Christian.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
BUT - they do indicate the theoretical MAGNITUDE if what is POSSIBLE BY FAITH in the power of God to do incredible things.
Remember this phrase (I know you will, you've been saying this for years).

To answer it directly, I would say: no it isn't...for the individual. Jesus was speaking to his disciples, and thus the church whole, not to a single person telling them what wonderous things they could do. It is an allegory for the power that the church has in the world. Nobody has ever, by faith, pulled up a mountain and cast it into the sea -- not even Jesus.

Faith always starts with HIM anyway - Man can't generate FAITH internally.
Remember this one too. I agree with you here, btw.

It's always by HIS WORD to you, just like it was for Abraham, and David. plenty of illustrations of FAITH in the Old Testament, and the New, and the potential POWER it has. The REAL PROBLEM with Word of Faith - is that there's NO FAITH involved, just presumption, magic words, and methodology (If you follow this formula, God will "HAVE TO DO" what you want Him to). And then when folks don't get what they want out of their "Theology", they throw the baby out with the bath water.
So I hope what you are saying here is the first remembered thing from above. So here you attribute "magic words" to Word of Faith when what they want should fall under the MAGNITUDE of what is POSSIBLE BY FAITH. But simply that they do not have said faith. They don't have faith because, as the school traffic guard in "Mr. Mom" said to Michael Keaton: "You're doing it wrong!"

I'm dying of Advanced Coronary Artery disease, and lately the old familiar symptoms are back in force - it's hospital time again. I HAVE NO FAITH (No WORD OF GOD TO ME -ROM 10:17) that God has any plans to eliminate the condition which will probably kill me in the next few years or so.

I Know He heals - I've seen Him do it. But that means nothing in my case. I have NO specific FAITH that HE intends to heal me.
So, according to remembered words #2 above, because God did not give said faith to you.

Heb 11:1 says that faith is substance and it is evidence. It is the substance of what you hope for. It is the evidence of what is not seen. You may hope for a healing; if God desires to heal you then he will give you the faith to believe for such. You say you do not have such. Faith is the evidence of the healing that you don't see, that you don't yet have. But that evidence is the faith that you say God has not given you. This is how I read, understand and see it working. Who am I to say whether or not you have any specific faith for a healing. I believe you.

The Words in the bible are all well and good, but produce nothing unless they're YOURS.
This is Word of Faith speak. And it is wrong. Words are words, things to read. THE Word is Jesus, and he is the power that the scripture speaks about. Not a magic toy that we can toss around. He is God. And through him we are measured faith. With our faith we can be emboldened to do mighty things, because faith is substance and it is evidence. But, as you say, it is not a magic wand to wave when you want more money.

Folks quote Mar 11:22-24, but skip over the stated conditions under which it operates (Believe in your heart-NOTHING DOUBTING). SO - how do you NOT DOUBT - what you doubt.
Unfortunately, if you doubt then you have not been measured the faith in the first place. Or, you have been given the faith of a mustard seed, but you refuse to see that you can use it to grow. Either way, your right: if you doubt, then you are doubting. You are NOT "not doubting." And no amount of meditation or desire on your part will create the faith that brings the substance. God measures the faith. We use or don't use it -- if God gave it in the first place.

But if I don't survive this latest go-round, what's the problem?? I'll be OUTTA HERE, and in a better place as a Born Again Christian.
To live is Christ, to die is gain. Whenever that day finds you, I know that it has been a pleasure to know you and your sober manner of reading and teaching scripture. I pray for you that you get the number of days that you desire.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
I want to start with this: God raised Jesus from the dead.
Did he?

Gal 1:1 - God the Father who raised him from the dead.
Romans 8:11 - the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead.
John 10:18 - I have the authority to take it back again. This commandment I received from my Father.

This last verse is interesting because it clearly distinguishes between Jesus and the Father.

Ahh, but God is God and God is the Trinity.

So if you want to say "God" in your statement is all three, then you say that God raised God from the dead, thus implying that God was dead.

I'm starting to sound like Sly, aren't I? So all I'm saying is that we must take all three persons individually in the responsibility of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

I have adequate proof to maintain that assertion, and adequate understanding to say that the resurrection vindicates Jesus' words.
You have no proof - or you would be able to convince an agnostic scientist. What you have is belief in the bible, and hope that extra-biblical accounts of Jesus are not simply by people who want to perpetuate the belief. So to the atheist, Josephus bought into a myth and then began to mention said myth in his writings -- proving nothing except that Josephus believed in myths.

I'm with you in the second half where we have adequate understanding...

I always start there. There is a lot I do not know, but I know Jesus is Lord, and that God raised Him from the dead...so that understanding these enigmatic last days will include what happened two thousand years ago...and remembering that James (and actually Job and David and Solomon) gave me license to write posts like the one you wrote.
Because mountains and trees don't move in scripture does not suggest that they won't, or that it's not literal.
Sure it does. We can't take a scripture out of context and out of meaning, and apply our own meaning to them and call that eisegetical (for Diz) meaning truth. We just can't.

Jesus spoke in parables a lot. He spoke in allegory a lot. He spoke a lot to the church wherein movements like Word of Faith take it as an individual assignment. We want that power so we take it -- whether it is there to be taken or not.

Mark 11:22 - Jesus said to them....

Them. Not Peter, who pointed out the fig tree. Them - the first members of the church (once the church was later formed).

And no mountain ever moved. No mountain moved later when the disciples were sent out to do great miracles. No sycamore trees were ever uprooted. Ever. Not by Peter, not by Paul. Not by Jesus -- and not by you or me. It simply is not a literal command. It is a statement that there will be mighty works done within the church.

I have seen an infestation of fleas disappear in one hour after prayer. I've seen an infestation of caterpillars so thick that the trunk of the tree was furry, end in a pile of dead caterpillars after prayer. And again, it's not because I've seen it that I'm blessed...I'm blessed because, not having seen, I believe what Jesus said.
So you prayed that genocide come to a family of creatures that God created -- and God complied, killing his creation for you?

Of course, God plays with our lives, giving us life and hope and happiness only to drag it away so that he can make someone else's life better with belief (or fear, as the case may be). Or the growth of apathy, as in my case.

Words are inadequate. Simple as that.
No...they are promises.
It meant everything it said...everything.
Just not literally in each case. Still no mountain.

And I see Hebrews 11:. 36Still others endured mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.
And when it doesn't work or we can't explain it, we can always run to the latter half of Hebrews 11.

Yet instead of using the latter half of Hebrews 11 to prove that the mountain isn't moving, that God is in control and you do not hold some "magic power" or even the "right" to use what you see as a promise in the Word, you use it to "cover" the fact that your belief and use of the promises doesn't always work. And if you are a die-hard WoFer then you blame yourself for not using your faith correctly, and you blame the people in Hebrews 11:(latter half) as well. I don't think I've ever heard you do this, so the you I've written is the proverbial die-hard "you." I've heard you say that the people in latter-half are shown to have faith and still were put to death. Showing to me that God is in control and he loves to watch us fall and also to allow a saw to cut us in half from time to time. His pleasure in smelling blood.

37They were stoned, they were sawed in two, they were put to death by the sword. They went around in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, oppressed, and mistreated. 38The world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and hid in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.
See, you bold the truth. They were in faith. And God pulled back the promises and laughed and laughed.

Faith does not commend itself by what you have received...otherwise, James would lose his apostleship, and Peter would be highly commended. He would not have run and hidden after meeting at Mark's house. Something of reality struck the Word of Faith movement that began at Pentecost that day James was beheaded. The promise didn't change...but the chances of having "sorrow upon sorrow" upon the death of an Epaphroditus made the fight of faith all that more real.
Much truth, except the Word of Faith movement didn't start until the 20th century no matter how many times you wish to use that term and apply it to the first century.

You see, in Romans 8:11 Paul tells us that the "word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we preach)."

He didn't say anything about a movement. He didn't capitalize Word of Faith as if it is anything other than the words "word," "of," and "faith." It is the word in your mouth. A word. Said word is about faith. It is not a movement. It is not tied to a movement. Paul is not speaking of a movement that would begin in the 20th century.

Nor does the Word of Faith movement have a corner on wanting the bible, what it says, what it promises, or using its teachings. All movements and denominations express that they (and many times, only they) know what the bible really means. So taking your peculiar understanding and applying it to the first century church is just as misplaced as calling them Baptists or Pentecostals. It is the other way around, Pete. The first century church did not begin the church to be like the Baptists; the Baptists broke off into their own group because they thought they were being more first century biblical.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego knew "God was able..." They had no idea that He would, and they went into the furnace rather than renouncing their faith. The outcome was not clear to them until they were joined in the warmth by a friend.
Yes, but they weren't Word of Faith because that didn't start until Pentecost.

But, in truth, they did not enter the furnace applying a promise. They entered with faith that God would protect them. And since scripture tells us that faith is measured to us, we know that these men did not produce this faith on their own. It was given to them as substance of their hope in God, and as evidence that God will do something to keep them safe.

I still cannot find an excuse not to believe or an alternative to believing God and taking Him at His word. My wife goes in to have her lymph nodes looked at on Friday.
There is no reason to not believe. The bible is to be believed if you are Christian. But stories are not as literal as Word of Faith would want them. The faith that God gives is very real. It is given to tell us something, to give us assurance. And we in turn use that faith to express our belief that God will be faithful. God will do with that faith what God will do -- sometimes it matches what we want and sometimes it doesn't.

And now I find myself a few days past Friday. I pray that the results of the tests are faithfully in your favor.
 

BlessedAnomaly

Active member
I prefer "Triunity". Three person's in unity, three person's of the same substance, three person's of the same species. One God.
I've been beating Pete up over Peteisms, so how could I be OK with a Tedism? I don't disagree, although "species" sounds so Creflo.

I'll stick with Trinity and One God.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Part 1 of 2
Did he?
Gal 1:1 - God the Father who raised him from the dead.
Romans 8:11 - the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead.
John 10:18 - I have the authority to take it back again. This commandment I received from my Father.
This last verse is interesting because it clearly distinguishes between Jesus and the Father.
They are distinct in their unity.

Ahh, but God is God and God is the Trinity.
So if you want to say "God" in your statement is all three, then you say that God raised God from the dead, thus implying that God was dead.
I was dead in my sins...Jesus took my sins...He became as dead as I was...only more so. And He rose. There came a moment when the light refused to shine. As it is written, "In your light we see light..."

I'm starting to sound like Sly, aren't I? So all I'm saying is that we must take all three persons individually in the responsibility of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
Not quite...The Father willed, the Spirit brooded and the Word spoke. Each agent operated in His capacity to create, and each equally necessary.
You have no proof - or you would be able to convince an agnostic scientist. What you have is belief in the bible, and hope that extra-biblical accounts of Jesus are not simply by people who want to perpetuate the belief. So to the atheist, Josephus bought into a myth and then began to mention said myth in his writings -- proving nothing except that Josephus believed in myths.
This is nonsense. I have proof that has met the standard I set...but I did the research. Experience is not something you can give away. It's a story...a testimony...a word that can be heard, by which faith can come. Faith brings experience because faith that is not tried is only theory.,

I'm with you in the second half where we have adequate understanding...
Understanding follows...after faith has been tested.
Sure it does. We can't take a scripture out of context and out of meaning, and apply our own meaning to them and call that eisegetical (for Diz) meaning truth. We just can't.

Jesus spoke in parables a lot. He spoke in allegory a lot. He spoke a lot to the church wherein movements like Word of Faith take it as an individual assignment. We want that power so we take it -- whether it is there to be taken or not.

Mark 11:22 - Jesus said to them....

Them. Not Peter, who pointed out the fig tree. Them - the first members of the church (once the church was later formed).
There is a difference between a parable and a doctrine. This is the doctrine of the principles of faith, illustrated by a dead tree. Your workaround does not produce understanding of the point Jesus made so well..."If you...then..." is quite clear.

And no mountain ever moved. No mountain moved later when the disciples were sent out to do great miracles. No sycamore trees were ever uprooted. Ever. Not by Peter, not by Paul. Not by Jesus -- and not by you or me. It simply is not a literal command. It is a statement that there will be mighty works done within the church.
So what? It wasn't time for an actual mountain to move...yet. And the fulfillment is coming soon.
So you prayed that genocide come to a family of creatures that God created -- and God complied, killing his creation for you?
Genocide?

I could say something, but Joe might get on my case for being mean. I spoke to the plague of fleas and it went away.

Of course, God plays with our lives, giving us life and hope and happiness only to drag it away so that he can make someone else's life better with belief (or fear, as the case may be). Or the growth of apathy, as in my case.
The apathy is your choice...That's one of the choices folks made in scripture...Job sounds a lot like you. So does Ecclesiastes. David cheers me up, on the other hand...and the farming material hit the fan with him several times.


Just not literally in each case. Still no mountain.
So what...have not seen...still believe...blessed. Jesus said that to Thomas. I get it.
 
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tbeachhead

Well-known member
Part 2 of 2
And when it doesn't work or we can't explain it, we can always run to the latter half of Hebrews 11.

Yet instead of using the latter half of Hebrews 11 to prove that the mountain isn't moving, that God is in control and you do not hold some "magic power" or even the "right" to use what you see as a promise in the Word, you use it to "cover" the fact that your belief and use of the promises doesn't always work. And if you are a die-hard WoFer then you blame yourself for not using your faith correctly, and you blame the people in Hebrews 11:(latter half) as well. I don't think I've ever heard you do this, so the you I've written is the proverbial die-hard "you." I've heard you say that the people in latter-half are shown to have faith and still were put to death. Showing to me that God is in control and he loves to watch us fall and also to allow a saw to cut us in half from time to time. His pleasure in smelling blood.
God doesn't watch believers fail...when faith is the ultimate goal: there are only three things that matter because they last...faith hope and love. And love is the greatest. If you died believing, as a stranger in a foreign land, you're looking for a city whose builder and maker is God. You did not die a loser.


See, you bold the truth. They were in faith. And God pulled back the promises and laughed and laughed.
No...He welcomed them and said "Well done. You understood." Now they're all watching to see if we get it. You somehow seem to think death is the end...."These all died believing..." Faith is THE end. Death is part of the test.
Much truth, except the Word of Faith movement didn't start until the 20th century no matter how many times you wish to use that term and apply it to the first century.
Movements get flushed. I'm not into movements. The Word of Faith hermeneutics is the most successful paradigm for biblical exegesis I've found. Kenyon followed it. Wigglesworth followed it. Robby Dawkins walks it into Muslim mosques. To the degree that Hagin followed it, I can be with him...but where it becomes a ritual of right words, he loses me. Where WoF becomes an excuse for tithe extraction, Paul's warnings to Timothy ring out. WoF is not a means of gain. WoF is not movement or theory for me, but instruction for righteous conduct. And although I'm instructed by the distinctions you make so consistently, I really do not care that the definition of WoF that Paul coined first does not meet the definition you've extracted from the misconduct of those who have enriched themselves using the principles.

You see, in Romans 8:11 Paul tells us that the "word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith that we preach)."
Yep...Paul preceded Hagin by a handful of days.

He didn't say anything about a movement. He didn't capitalize Word of Faith as if it is anything other than the words "word," "of," and "faith." It is the word in your mouth. A word. Said word is about faith.
Your argument is specious. Had Paul written in English, it would have been THEWORDOFFAITH. ('OLOGOSTOYPICTOY) Every letter capitalized.
It is not a movement. It is not tied to a movement. Paul is not speaking of a movement that would begin in the 20th century.
Paul founded a movement that actually never ended. I found revival moments throughout history. Francis of Assisi knew the principles. Tyndale was warmed by the principles...we just celebrated the anniversary of his warming around the sixth of October.

Nor does the Word of Faith movement have a corner on wanting the bible, what it says, what it promises, or using its teachings. All movements and denominations express that they (and many times, only they) know what the bible really means. So taking your peculiar understanding and applying it to the first century church is just as misplaced as calling them Baptists or Pentecostals. It is the other way around, Pete. The first century church did not begin the church to be like the Baptists; the Baptists broke off into their own group because they thought they were being more first century biblical.
What you're saying makes no sense, Bob. If I'm not applying the principles I learned from Paul and the 1st century church, I'm reinventing an invention. I know many churches claim to "have the real deal." Westboro Baptist claims to have the "real deal." Claims can all be examined, like the critics do here. When you examine Hinn's claims you uncover his inventions, and you remove him from the claim. Simple as that. Any deviation from the doctrine Paul taught is invention and could be dangerous. And this is the best place I've found to examine claims.
Yes, but they weren't Word of Faith because that didn't start until Pentecost.
Wait! What? I thought it didn't start until Hagin! The Word of Faith began when God looked at formlessness and void and called that which is not as though it was. When God spoke to the darkness and said "Light be," we saw the mountain move for the very first time.

The principles of faith began to be taught with Abel, and Abraham...and where they were followed the fruit of the Spirit is manifested. There is nothing in the NT that does not find root in the OT.

But, in truth, they did not enter the furnace applying a promise. They entered with faith that God would protect them.
I think you're wrong. Daniel shows me they had access to the prophets. He evoked Jeremiah when he saw that seventy years had passed. They had a promise...they came after Isaiah. Here's what they did know: 43:2 "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze."

And since scripture tells us that faith is measured to us, we know that these men did not produce this faith on their own. It was given to them as substance of their hope in God, and as evidence that God will do something to keep them safe.
And it came from hearing, and hearing from the Word.

There is no reason to not believe. The bible is to be believed if you are Christian. But stories are not as literal as Word of Faith would want them.
Isaiah was pretty literal, wasn't it?
The faith that God gives is very real. It is given to tell us something, to give us assurance. And we in turn use that faith to express our belief that God will be faithful. God will do with that faith what God will do -- sometimes it matches what we want and sometimes it doesn't.
The Word instructs us as to what we shall believe. It also produces the friction that makes believing a challenge. "I don't know" is always the impetus for more prayer and study and conversation with friends.

And now I find myself a few days past Friday. I pray that the results of the tests are faithfully in your favor.
The doctor was practically dancing for joy...the tumor was a 1A...as close to "benign" as melanoma can be...We're waiting for the biopsies from her lymph nodes...

...and recovering from the intrusion. Thanks.
 
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tbeachhead

Well-known member
I prefer "Triunity". Three person's in unity, three person's of the same substance, three person's of the same species. One God.
I don't like "persons." It's an invention. Body, soul and spirit...me in three...maybe dimensions, because each with the other on different levels defines the divine Life whose image we bear. Spirit/breath is the life of the soul/blood, the life of the body/flesh. The Word is produced in the Soul, and enlivened when it is breathed...changing the very molecular structure of the matter it is intended to impact.
 

Tallen

Active member
I don't like "persons." It's an invention. Body, soul and spirit...me in three...maybe dimensions, because each with the other on different levels defines the divine Life whose image we bear. Spirit/breath is the life of the soul/blood, the life of the body/flesh. The Word is produced in the Soul, and enlivened when it is breathed...changing the very molecular structure of the matter it is intended to impact.
Huh/What!?! 😮
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Huh/What!?! 😮
Body and soul and spirit are not three persons...I think describing Father and son and spirit as "three persons" is inadequate...and it lends to the confusion pagans have over our tripartite God in Whose image we are made.

On the other hand, "triunity" actually works for me. It's a clever solution.
 
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