Why is apologetics so ineffective in converting skeptics?

Apologetics is just a lot of talk. That's all apologists can do is talk. There's no substance to apologetics, and if you actually want to see a demonstration from an apologist of God's alleged power, you'll certainly be disappointed.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
I think it's like Saul's armor on David, it puts one's trust in the intellectual capacity and moral veracity of man, instead of humble dependence on God. It's a wrong foundation based on having enough information, instead of a supernatural transformation deep inside. I think people's faith can feel wounded or fractured by things they don't understand, and it is one thing to try to lean on to prop it up. People who have experienced a miracle, people who are truly changed, people who have a thing truly revealed to them, care little for logic and debate, as if you would debate whether pain exists if you've known it.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Apologetics is just a lot of talk. That's all apologists can do is talk. There's no substance to apologetics, and if you actually want to see a demonstration from an apologist of God's alleged power, you'll certainly be disappointed.
Yeah it is exactly like the bible where people wrote about their own experiences with God isnt it. .
 

docphin5

Well-known member
I think it's like Saul's armor on David, it puts one's trust in the intellectual capacity and moral veracity of man, instead of humble dependence on God. It's a wrong foundation based on having enough information, instead of a supernatural transformation deep inside. I think people's faith can feel wounded or fractured by things they don't understand, and it is one thing to try to lean on to prop it up. People who have experienced a miracle, people who are truly changed, people who have a thing truly revealed to them, care little for logic and debate, as if you would debate whether pain exists if you've known it.
Every religion on the planet says the same thing when challenged by another religion. Do you think the LDS, the Hindus, the Muslims, the Buddhists, etc., lack the conviction in their “miracle” and “experience” and “things truly revealed” to them? Of course not. But these are all emotions.

The big clue that your emotions are not serving you well is when a you reject actual truth for your emotional experiences. And the BIGGEST EXAMPLE of your emotions deceiving you is your rejection of EVOLUTION. Christian orthodoxy has put their emotions, their traditions, their (to put it bluntly) powerless religion over actual truth.

I am telling you, God will not ignore the rejection of truth by anyone, no matter how strong a FEELING deep down (wherever that is) you have that everything is good. That goes for any religion: LDS, Buddhist, Islam, etc.

This is a red line.

The only reason I know it is I did not see Christ as the cosmic Son of God until I accepted the truth of evolution in front of me and started asking God for his Wisdom to understand who I am. When the body of Christ was revealed as the sensible cosmos, then I saw how he ordered the cosmos to form me, through the mechanism of evolution. Subsequently, when my soul dedicated itself to living a pious, virtuous life, then I was born of God, —soul in union with God, body still a mix of bad and good (Until the resurrection).

What made the spiritual outpouring so great in the centuries leading up to our age resulting in the culmination of Christianity from Greek, Egyptian, and Jewish, religions was the union of science and religion in explaining the divine will of God. People like Pythagoras who was a brilliant mathematician and a pious, virtuous teacher. Great philosophers, prophets, magi, heirophants, from different religions: Persian, Hellenized Judaism, Chaldean, Egyptian, Greek, divined the will of God in union with the sciences which sought to understand Nature, and our place in it (I.e., in the “one body” of the Son of God).

The point being that the union of science and religion brings about a spiritual outpouring. If we understand, —truly understand, our world (e.g. the fact of evolution), then, and only then, does a pious, virtuous soul begin to know God and his plan for us. Everything else is man-made, powerless, religion built on emotions alone.

And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

“But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
(Daniel 12:3)
 
Last edited:

RiJoRi

Well-known member
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be prepared with a defense [apologian] to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Apologetics is a tool, to be used by God as He sees fit. Do not despise the chainsaw just because it is not sandpaper.

--Rich
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Every religion on the planet says the same thing when challenged by another religion. Do you think the LDS, the Hindus, the Muslims, the Buddhists, etc., lack the conviction in their “miracle” and “experience” and “things truly revealed” to them? Of course not. But these are all emotions.

Hi to you too.

No, emotions are only one dimension of experience.

Other experiences or miracles are not something I invalidate. I believe Satan can be experienced. I believe he does miracle

Would you deny that logic and thought are in some way something you experience? Did they old philosopher say "I think therefore I am," because he was just an emotional old chap? Everything we consciously know is only known through experiencing it.

The big clue that your emotions are not serving you well is when a you reject actual truth for your emotional experiences. And the BIGGEST EXAMPLE of your emotions deceiving you is your rejection of EVOLUTION. Christian orthodoxy has put their emotions, their traditions, their (to put it bluntly) powerless religion over actual truth.

I don't reject evolution.

I am telling you, God will not ignore the rejection of truth by anyone, no matter how strong a FEELING deep down (wherever that is) you have that everything is good. That goes for any religion: LDS, Buddhist, Islam, etc. This is a red line. The only reason I know it is I did not see Christ as the cosmic Son of God until I accepted the truth of evolution in front of me and started asking God for his Wisdom to understand who I am. When the body of Christ was revealed as the sensible cosmos, then I saw how he ordered the cosmos to form me, through the mechanism of evolution. Subsequently, when my soul dedicated itself to living a pious, virtuous life, then I was born of God, —soul in union with God, body still a mix of bad and good (Until the resurrection).

I'm not sure what point you're making.

What made the spiritual outpouring so great in the centuries leading up to our age resulting in the culmination of Christianity from Greek, Egyptian, and Jewish, religions was the union of science and religion in explaining the divine will of God. People like Pythagoras who was a brilliant mathematician and a pious, virtuous teacher. Great philosophers, prophets, magi, heirophants, from different religions: Persian, Hellenized Judaism, Chaldean, Egyptian, Greek, divined the will of God in union with the sciences which sought to understand Nature.

Science is not a "thing," our mind is just conditioned to think of it as a "thing." The only thing you know about science is some idea you have of what the word "science" means in your thinking. It's an idea in your subjective experience, for how can you illustrate or validate any ultimate truth outside of simply what you experience? The mind/body or hard solipsism or whatever you want to call it problem, shows we can't really verify things outside of our subjectively experiencing them.

The point being that the union of science and religion brings about a spiritual outpouring. If we understand, —truly understand our world (e.g. the fact of evolution), then, and only then, does a pious, virtuous soul begin to know God and his plan for us. Everything else is man-made, powerless, religion.

Spirituality is something more than the limited study of the mind's ability to do logic and express relations it observes.

That's like playing in a sand box next to experiencing God.

Peace in Christ.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be prepared with a defense [apologian] to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

Apologetics is a tool, to be used by God as He sees fit. Do not despise the chainsaw just because it is not sandpaper.

--Rich

I see this "defense" as an ability to explain what the Gospel is and means to you, not intellectually or logically proving Christ's existence. I find the latter idea very foreign to the pages of Scripture, where everything is experiential.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Hi to you too.

No, emotions are only one dimension of experience.

Other experiences or miracles are not something I invalidate. I believe Satan can be experienced. I believe he does miracle

Would you deny that logic and thought are in some way something you experience? Did they old philosopher say "I think therefore I am," because he was just an emotional old chap? Everything we consciously know is only known through experiencing it.



I don't reject evolution.



I'm not sure what point you're making.



Science is not a "thing," our mind is just conditioned to think of it as a "thing." The only thing you know about science is some idea you have of what the word "science" means in your thinking. It's an idea in your subjective experience, for how can you illustrate or validate any ultimate truth outside of simply what you experience? The mind/body or hard solipsism or whatever you want to call it problem, shows we can't really verify things outside of our subjectively experiencing them.
Your comments show that you don’t know what science is. It appears that you put it on par with your subjective emotional experiences and subjective interpretations of scripture.

Science is a validated method of understanding our world. It is not subjective as you just said, for, any results produced by one person must be repeatable by another, independent lab, therefore, science produces verifiable, objective data. IOW, if high quality science is performed then we find truth in front of us. Religion has no corollary to the scientific method above unless one characterizes the idea of the sensible cosmos being the Son of God arising independently in different religions, cultures, and nations as it did when our age began.

Spirituality is something more than the limited study of the mind's ability to do logic and express relations it observes.

That's like playing in a sand box next to experiencing God.

Peace in Christ.
 

civic

Well-known member
I see this "defense" as an ability to explain what the Gospel is and means to you, not intellectually or logically proving Christ's existence. I find the latter idea very foreign to the pages of Scripture, where everything is experiential.
Do you know the Apostle Paul's background with Gamaliel, being a Pharisee and its requirement's and also an expert in Greek Philosophy. Its why he is regarded as the best apologist(apart from Jesus) the world has even known.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Your comments show that you don’t know what science is. It appears that you put it on par with your subjective emotional experiences and subjective interpretations of scripture.

Your opinion on this is emotional and subjective.

Science is a validated method of understanding our world.

Completely unsubstantiated and also unclear without removing ambiguity in definitions.

There is no path to verified ultimate knowledge under so-called "science."

It is not subjective as you just said, for, any results produced by one person must be repeatable by another, independent lab, therefore, science produces verifiable, objective data.

You are speaking like you can verify the world external to you when you cannot.

You cannot even prove another person has a subjective experience of consciousness, nor can your "science."

IOW, if high quality science is performed then we find truth in front of us. Religion has no corollary to the scientific method above unless one characterizes the idea of the sensible cosmos being the Son of God arising independently in different religions, cultures, and nations as it did when our age began.

Science must be subjectively experienced. You've no logical way around that.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Do you know the Apostle Paul's background with Gamaliel, being a Pharisee and its requirement's and also an expert in Greek Philosophy. Its why he is regarded as the best apologist(apart from Jesus) the world has even known.

No, it's not.

It's why he regarded all that as the "dung" it was and the temptation to pride.

Paul was, perhaps, the best evangelist the world has ever known, because he passionately loved and experienced Christ, and threw all that away in the garbage heap where it belongs.

"All things I count loss compared to the excellency of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord."
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Every religion on the planet says the same thing when challenged by another religion. Do you think the LDS, the Hindus, the Muslims, the Buddhists, etc., lack the conviction in their “miracle” and “experience” and “things truly revealed” to them? Of course not. But these are all emotions.

The big clue that your emotions are not serving you well is when a you reject actual truth for your emotional experiences. And the BIGGEST EXAMPLE of your emotions deceiving you is your rejection of EVOLUTION. Christian orthodoxy has put their emotions, their traditions, their (to put it bluntly) powerless religion over actual truth.

I am telling you, God will not ignore the rejection of truth by anyone, no matter how strong a FEELING deep down (wherever that is) you have that everything is good. That goes for any religion: LDS, Buddhist, Islam, etc.

This is a red line.

The only reason I know it is I did not see Christ as the cosmic Son of God until I accepted the truth of evolution in front of me and started asking God for his Wisdom to understand who I am. When the body of Christ was revealed as the sensible cosmos, then I saw how he ordered the cosmos to form me, through the mechanism of evolution. Subsequently, when my soul dedicated itself to living a pious, virtuous life, then I was born of God, —soul in union with God, body still a mix of bad and good (Until the resurrection).

What made the spiritual outpouring so great in the centuries leading up to our age resulting in the culmination of Christianity from Greek, Egyptian, and Jewish, religions was the union of science and religion in explaining the divine will of God. People like Pythagoras who was a brilliant mathematician and a pious, virtuous teacher. Great philosophers, prophets, magi, heirophants, from different religions: Persian, Hellenized Judaism, Chaldean, Egyptian, Greek, divined the will of God in union with the sciences which sought to understand Nature, and our place in it (I.e., in the “one body” of the Son of God).

The point being that the union of science and religion brings about a spiritual outpouring. If we understand, —truly understand, our world (e.g. the fact of evolution), then, and only then, does a pious, virtuous soul begin to know God and his plan for us. Everything else is man-made, powerless, religion built on emotions alone.

And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

“But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
(Daniel 12:3)
It is very obvious that man has inhabited this planet for hundreds of thousands of years. Evolving along the way to the society we live in this day. The interesting thing in all of this related to the stories in the bible is -- the idea of a God who created everything was created from mans ignorance for how we became. SO the way I read the bible is Adam was the first to actually come to the conclusion of a God for creation. But once he actually saw the difference from a creator of the cosmos to the One who makes man who we are by our spirit that drives the man, he became like God to know this difference. Gen 3;22.

The sad thing in Christendom is, and for the most part, have not come to that same knowledge of it to know this difference from material gods to a Spiritual God to distinguish that it doesnt matter how we got here, what matters is who we are while we are here.

It isn't an issue for me how I got here and it isn't an issue for me what happens when I die, what matters is living a life, (while I am here on earth), of Love that makes me free from all these religious belief systems that are actually designed for enterprise. These making laws and rules to hold people in a pew to adhere to their views for religion. And these cant think on their own they have to have someone tell them what to think.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Do you know the Apostle Paul's background with Gamaliel, being a Pharisee and its requirement's and also an expert in Greek Philosophy. Its why he is regarded as the best apologist(apart from Jesus) the world has even known.
Except that the so-called “Jesus” never wrote anything down. The words of “Jesus” are always through his prophets and apostles in scripture.

* The Gospels stories mythicize the actual inner Jesus of the human Paul, the human Teacher of righteousness, the human Isaiah, the human David, the human Habakuk, etc.

* The Gospels personify the inner Jesus described by Paul in his epistles.

Based upon everything I have read so far, it is likely, that the actual Paul who was anointed by Christ is written mythically in the Gospels as Yeshua the Anointed. Therefore, Paul is your apologist for Christ Jesus.
 

civic

Well-known member
No, it's not.

It's why he regarded all that as the "dung" it was and the temptation to pride.

Paul was, perhaps, the best evangelist the world has ever known, because he passionately loved and experienced Christ, and threw all that away in the garbage heap where it belongs.

"All things I count loss compared to the excellency of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord."
Read Acts and his apologetics with the Greeks using Greek philosophical arguments. And of course all that is nothing compared to knowing Christ and Him crucified. But Paul was the best apologist for a good reason due to his upbringing and training in Judaism and Greek philosophy.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
It is very obvious that man has inhabited this planet for hundreds of thousands of years. Evolving along the way to the society we live in this day. The interesting thing in all of this related to the stories in the bible is -- the idea of a God who created everything was created from mans ignorance for how we became. SO the way I read the bible is Adam was the first to actually come to the conclusion of a God for creation. But once he actually saw the difference from a creator of the cosmos to the One who makes man who we are by our spirit that drives the man, he became like God to know this difference. Gen 3;22.

The sad thing in Christendom is, and for the most part, have not come to that same knowledge of it to know this difference from material gods to a Spiritual God to distinguish that it doesnt matter how we got here, what matters is who we are while we are here.
How we got here and where we are going may not matter most of the time to most people, but God does not want his children to be ignorant of what is to come.

It isn't an issue for me how I got here and it isn't an issue for me what happens when I die, what matters is living a life, (while I am here on earth), of Love that makes me free from all these religious belief systems that are actually designed for enterprise. These making laws and rules to hold people in a pew to adhere to their views for religion. And these cant think on their own they have to have someone tell them what to think.
That is a fair position to take. If one is not sure how to explain how we got here then a reasonable person should not be dogmatic about it. God tolerates such a position because it is not for everyone to know the ins and outs of his plan (unless they want to and there is a path to that) but is enough for everyone to believe he has it under control.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Read Acts and his apologetics with the Greeks using Greek philosophical arguments. And of course all that is nothing compared to knowing Christ and Him crucified. But Paul was the best apologist for a good reason due to his upbringing and training in Judaism and Greek philosophy.
There is no question that Paul’s theology syncretized Greek with Judaism. There are things Paul describes that corollate with ideas in the Corpus Hermiticum which arguably was written in Egypt when it was ruled by the Persians/Greeks around 2nd-4th century B.C. Therefore, Greek-Egyptian-Jewish (even Persian-Chaldean) ideas culminated in the Christian religion at the beginning of our age.

This is likely why the Roman church had the great library of Alexandria burned down, that is, to destroy the evidence for pre-Christian ideas circulating among the nations E.g., that the body of the Son of God is the sensible cosmos.

“…set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.” (Ephesians 1:10)
 
Last edited:

civic

Well-known member
There is no question that Paul’s theology syncretized Greek with Judaism. There are things Paul describes that corollate with ideas in the Corpus Hermiticum which arguably was written in Egypt when it was ruled by the Persians/Greeks around 2nd-4th century B.C.
Some people are anti-education and think they can be like a monk with their bible only philosophy and not learn from another human or book. This isn't the dark ages anymore lol. We all have the same access to education and tools that are used in seminary at our fingertips online and in many cases for free.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Your opinion on this is emotional and subjective.



Completely unsubstantiated and also unclear without removing ambiguity in definitions.

There is no path to verified ultimate knowledge under so-called "science."



You are speaking like you can verify the world external to you when you cannot.

You cannot even prove another person has a subjective experience of consciousness, nor can your "science."



Science must be subjectively experienced. You've no logical way around that.
Like I said, your comments demonstrate a lack of understanding what science is. Let us agree to disagree at this point versus school yard yelling match. Anytime, you want references what the scientific method can do, (versus your opinions), I can provide them.
 

docphin5

Well-known member
Some people are anti-education and think they can be like a monk with their bible only philosophy and not learn from another human or book. This isn't the dark ages anymore lol. We all have the same access to education and tools that are used in seminary at our fingertips online and in many cases for free.
Exactly! Most people don’t realize the opportunity that we have which is only paralleled to the time when Greece ruled the world (and the Persian Cyrus whom Isaiah describes as a Messiah figure, Isaiah 45:1). People of all nations sharing information where science and religion were working together to unravel the secrets of the universe. With that said, I also see the problem arising with everyone becoming their own “expert”, but I guess we must take the good with the bad.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member

Why is apologetics so ineffective in converting skeptics?​


1Cor. 3:5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.

The other answer is that to be "converted", you must have faith, and only God gives faith. So if God doesn't give you faith (and regenerate you), you will never be converted.
 
Top