Why is apologetics so ineffective in converting skeptics?

JAG

Active member
Was the work of Einstein "a huge vast wasteland of befuddlement and confusion"? How about the work of Edison or Bertrand Russell? These great men accomplished great things without any Holy Spirits. You Christians are always denigrating human achievement and have a very dim view of people in general. It should then come as no surprise that so much harm has resulted from Christian faith. Most people are good most of the time, and they deserve respect and recognition. To libel them is to do the world a disservice.

Love? Is that your idea of love? To denigrate people's minds as "the puny intellect of fallen corrupted humans"? How can you love anybody with that kind of an attitude?

And it's no surprise that Christians command people to love their God. I don't see how anybody could love him otherwise.

Actually, many people do enjoy debating and discussing important issues. There's nothing wrong with that. If you are opposed to "endless squabbling and bickering," then you may wish to take that up with Jesus. He started all the trouble, after all.
All that is standard ultra boring secular humanist befuddlement.
Anyone who has spent a long time in Thread World will immediately
recognize each and every point you made as points that have been
made by you people millions of times over and over again and again.
After awhile it gets sufficiently boring to endlessly read the same old

stuff over and over again and again ~~ that some of us have stopped
doing that. Threads like this one is like those old black and white
western movies __ when you have seen one of them, you have seen
them all. There is nothing new here. In the final boil down so-called
"atheism" is as boring as watching paint dry. So? So you can spend your
life (or part of your life) here inside Thread World pecking away on your
keyboard hawking your "atheism" under the guise of a

pseudo-intellectualism that pretends to be a serious investigation to
seek the truth and I will spend most of my life out there actually helping

to build up worldwide Christendom, who now has over 1300 Christian
mega-churches with a weekly attendance of over 2000 and now has some
2.3 billion believers in the world (that we know about). My view is as long
as we can keep "atheists" occupied here inside Thread World and keep them
OUT of Real World, then that's a good thing so I encourage you to start many
threads -- keep it going.

Best.

JAG
 

e v e

Super Member
many mega churches are not with Christ

… the gate is narrow
many cry Lord Lord
yet He does not know them…

further Christ will decide who is His
not men…

mostly apologetics is deluded esau rambling.

Im christian and see the question of the op is valid

because those doing the attempts to convert are so glued to the Self yet claiming ‘I’m saved.’

and ag the same time wanting to enjoy
this world and its needs and wants,
when what He wants is that we
leave this world
and deny this body which is its idol
and return to Him to eden
 

e v e

Super Member
Apologetics is just a lot of talk. That's all apologists can do is talk. There's no substance to apologetics, and if you actually want to see a demonstration from an apologist of God's alleged power, you'll certainly be disappointed.

who are you against?
 

e v e

Super Member
You've posted some very astute observations on the apparent conflict between faith and reason. Apologist William Lane Craig makes sure to let everybody know that ultimately Christian faith is more a matter of the heart than of the head. As I see it, few if any religious people believe their creeds as a result of evidence and reason. Rather, religious beliefs are arrived at and are held to because it is important to the religious person that those beliefs be true. Many people feel a need to believe they have a cosmic friend who will grant them eternal life. So for them reason and evidence can be useful at times but only if they appear to support the religious person's religious beliefs.

Yes, it is obvious that most believers as well as skeptics have little grasp of the issues involved in apologetics. That's one of the reasons apologetics often fails to convince.

We need not debate the existence of pain because we all have experienced it, but as for God's revelations and miracles, they are not so universally recognized. Nevertheless, I see no reason why revelations and miracles cannot be proved every bit as much as pain can be proved; that is, if miracles and revelations are as real as pain is.

the thing is
God’s reality is not of this world
and do not get judged by this world.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It is your idea for a belief system.
You're going to have to explain what you're talking about.

The way of God is to have His same mind and walk as He walks in it.
Yep.
So, by reading the bible daily, learning to apply it to my life, praying about everything, focusing my thoughts on pure, godly, righteous, just, holy, true, praiseworthy things, wherein God says that he will be with me (Philippians 4:6-9), which makes it possible for me to walk in the Spirit (which means that I will fulfill the righteous ordinance of the Law and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, Romans 8:4-8, Galatians 5:16-25), and give all diligence to add to my faith virtue, knowledge, self-control, persistence, brotherly kindness and love, which will ensure that I am neither barren nor unfruitful in my walk, and will ensure that I never stumble, and am richly administered an abundant entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of God and Jesus I'm not actually "having the same mind, and walking as he walks"?

Then you'll have to explain to me how you think it's done.
Because that phrase is a phrase Paul describes in Philippians 2:1-5.

It is the same today with most of these beliefs systems, denominations.
You mean like you have done here?

When these who say they follow Jesus see someone who is of Christ anointed of God with the same signs follow they rebel just as those did in Luke 9. Even mock them for being anointed of God and perfect as He is perfect and walk as He walks in His same light and actually picked up that cross and continued where he left off.
Like you're doing here?

I understand, most follow Paul instead of Jesus.
Apparently not. You make it pretty clear that unless we think like you, we're doing it all wrong and need to agree with you.


Yes Jesus died, Christ cannot die for Christ is Gods anointed it always has been that way with God and either you are anointed of God, Christ in you, or you are not. You know very well if you are like Him and perfect as He is perfect or not.
😳
Jesus dying for Jesus? Where on earth did you get that from?

Well, you're definitely showing signs of what Peter tells us about this issue.

2Pe 3:15-18 WEB 15 Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

If you are not as he is then you preach your own gospel.
So, Jesus dying for the sin of the ungodly, and rising from the dead to justify us with God, and saving us from our sin and making us spiritually alive is the wrong gospel?
Having to obtain a righteousness which exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees isn't possible, even though Jesus said it's necessary to enter God's Kingdom?
Isn't the new birth possible, since Jesus said it was necessary to enter God's Kingdom and to see it?




Ironic is in those verses is that every single one of Jesus disciples flat out denied to be identified with him in his trials and tribulation didnt they? Not a single one testified to be identified with him. Yet they scorn the ones who actually was identified with him with the same signs following. Sounds pretty much as what we have today in religious circles to me.
I suppose that it's a good thing that I don't take your word as gospel, and instead do what Paul told the Thessalonians to do, and what Luke said was that made the Bereans more noble than the Thessalonians.

Test all things. Abhor that which is evil and cling to that which is good.

They searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were true....

So, thank you Gary, but so far, you've offered nothing which would give me cause to believe you.

Especially when Paul actually describes the nature of Grace, and then tells us to not give in to the fraud perpetrated by false teachers.

Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Apologetics is just a lot of talk. That's all apologists can do is talk. There's no substance to apologetics, and if you actually want to see a demonstration from an apologist of God's alleged power, you'll certainly be disappointed.
well. 3000 thousand in Acts were persuaded by Peter preaching Christ!
 
This could be the last response from me to you, as I don't see you as being productive in discussion.
I feel very different from you because I've thoroughly enjoyed my dialogues with you and the other members here. This is a Christian-apologetics debate forum, and I came prepared to debate apologetics! I love to mix it up with people who have points of view that are different from mine, so I don't get upset over those differences.
From what I've seen (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you don't seem to like Christianity.
Whether or not I like Christianity (whatever that might mean) is completely irrelevant to whether or not Christianity is morally or factually right or wrong. What really matters to me is truth and not feelings.

But just for the record, I do find some Christian doctrines and stories to be quaint; they're OK as long as people don't take them seriously.
You seem to want to demonize it by trying to equate it to "The Final Solution" and "the Inquisition". I would disagree, obviously. I would assert that those two examples were flawed applications of Christianity. You don't seem to want to even consider the POSSIBILITY that they might not accurately represent Christianity.
I don't know what accurately represents Christianity because that assumes that we can know what accurate Christianity is. There are literally thousands of versions of Christianity that compete for believers, and there's no way I can decide which ones are factual if any of them are factual. So any version of Christianity you insist is the right version is merely based on your own opinion that must compete with the opinions of millions of other Christians including the Inquisition and the Nazis.
Zeus doesn't exist.
If you want to try to argue that he exists, then you'll rightly earn an immediate place in my "ignore" file. This is just silly.
There's so much I could say about this comment, but just let me point out that many skeptics would respond to claims about about your God in exactly the same way you respond to Zeus here. They would assert that the Bible god doesn't exist, and if you would try to argue that he does, then they would ignore what you say and assert that it's silly.

Anyway, if you want to understand why people don't believe in your God, then just think about what you say about Zeus. The reasons to doubt are much the same.
Yes, the Bible "can" be wrong.
But the Bible isn't wrong.
If you're at a stage where you don't believe the Bible, that's fine. But that simply points to a different discussion.
I'm not quite sure the Bible's claims can be known to be wrong. As far as I know all it's claims are unfalsifiable.
Many reasons.
The most important are (1) it is what the Bible teaches, and (2) The Holy Spirit has testified to me that it's true.
How can you explain the apparent lack of activity on the part of the Holy Spirit in many parts of the world? He seems to have given up on Europe, and he evidently doesn't bother much at all with places like Vietnam and North Korea.
<sigh>
Not at all.
That's probably correct: many people live full, happy lives without religion, and they no doubt rarely sigh like you just did.
You see, all you're doing here is trying to invent phony excuses as to why people might believe the Bible, since you refuse to accept the very simple and straightforward, "because it's true".
What you just stated is a tautology: People think the Bible is true because they think it's true. Redundancy like that doesn't explain much.

And please don't accuse me of lying. I haven't accused you of lying, and I'd appreciate the same courtesy from you.
Oh, and here we go with you "playing the victim".
There's a lot of passive-aggressiveness in your rhetoric, wouldn't you agree?
You want to lecture us, but you're "stupid" as well?
I'm not sure what you mean by "passive-aggressiveness," but I've found it's common for apologists to insult skeptics telling them they are unable to understand Christianity.
Apologetics more often than not occurs between people who are already believers, and hence who need no "converting".
Yes. Many apologists try to shore up the weak faith of doubting Christians.
Because that is not His purpose.
Why would He want to convert everyone?
I assume the Holy Spirit wants to convert people to save them from hell.
That's an invalid assumption, for a couple of reasons.
First of all, I know many critical thinkers, including myself, who are Christians. The Holy Spirit had no difficulty converting us.
Many Christians can think critically, but they seem to dispense with it when it comes to their beliefs.
And for those who are unconverted still, what is your evidence that the Holy Spirit attempted to convert them, other than your unsubstantiated ASSUMPTION?
I'm just going by what some Christians have told me. Should I doubt them?
With all due respect, you don't seem to be a "critical thinker".
What is a "critical thinker" in your estimation? You say you and some Christians are critical thinkers, so I want to see what you mean by that.
Btw, how do you even know? I don't remember seeing the poll you (allegedly?) sent out, asking people to identify whether their conversion was more "head" or "heart".
I've read books about why people are religious, and I ask Christians why they believe what they do.
And your evidence for that ASSUMPTION is ........... ?



And your evidence for that ASSUMPTION is ........... ?



And your evidence for that ASSUMPTION is ............ ?
Reading, studying, observing the behavior of Christians, debating Christians, and using common sense and knowledge of human nature has led me to conclude that Christian beliefs are based on importance and the hope for eternal life and that most Christians have little grasp of apologetics.
Now, the last part I wanted to respond to was your argumentation about how to interpret the Bible, that it must be interpreted "literally". I'm sorry, but I couldn't find the post in question.
It is not my position that the Bible must always be interpreted literally. I think it's best to interpret it literally unless a figurative interpretation is obviously more appropriate. I don't agree with people who interpret a passage figuratively only because a literal interpretation will render the passage false. Apologists use that tact all the time to attempt to save the Bible from scrutiny.
So one of your assumptions (I'm pretty sure it was you, please correct me if I'm wrong), is that Jesus taught that we are to hate our parents, and we have to take that "literally".
Apologetics is nothing if not longwinded. I can quickly respond that when Jesus said hate, then he meant hate. It's that simple. There's nothing "insane" about concluding that Jesus contradicted himself unless, of course, you insist he had to be perfect, an assumption I obviously do not make.
Now, if you're going to deny even the POSSIBILITY that it should be interpreted relative to love for Jesus, than this indicates that you are not a "critical thinker", and instead are simply demonstrating an agenda to try to attack Christianity at all costs, in an unreasonable manner.

Thoughts?
When I interpret a Bible passage, it's not enough for an interpretation to be merely possibly true; the proper interpretation should be probably correct. Your interpretation is possibly correct, but you introduced some very problematical assumptions to make it appear that although Jesus commanded hatred for family, he didn't really mean it! As I mentioned, you assume for example that Jesus could not have contradicted himself which is a very dubious conclusion.

So why not just understand that Jesus commanded his followers to hate their families? It seems odd that you would fight that interpretation so much unless you cannot accept that Jesus would be that way.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What you just stated is a tautology: People think the Bible is true because they think it's true. Redundancy like that doesn't explain much.

I never stated that "the Bible is true because they think it's true" (which is not a tautology).
I never stated that "the Bible is true because it's true" (which WOULD be a tautology).

I stated, "We should BELIEVE the Bible because it's true" (which is NOT a tautology).
So you seem to have a reading comprehension problem (presuming your misrepresentation was unintentional).

And please don't accuse me of lying. I haven't accused you of lying,

I haven't accused you of lying.
To lie requires intelligence.


And yeah, as I expected, I won't be reading any more of your posts.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
many mega churches are not with Christ
None that I know of.
… the gate is narrow
many cry Lord Lord
yet He does not know them…
Agreed either you are like Him or you are not.
further Christ will decide who is His
not men…
But that is your decision to be like Him or not.
mostly apologetics is deluded esau rambling.
Agreed.
Im christian and see the question of the op is valid

because those doing the attempts to convert are so glued to the Self yet claiming ‘I’m saved.’
yes and either He is come to you to be as He is or you are of another.
and ag the same time wanting to enjoy
this world and its needs and wants,
when what He wants is that we
leave this world
and deny this body which is its idol
and return to Him to eden
Not return to Eden, Eden is the place for law that man is kicked out of who has received from Him His same mind to be as He is and walk in His same light. Eden is a stronghold for law.

And I thank my God I am free from the stipulations of Eden and walk as He walks in His same light.
 

Rockson

Active member
You are correct that technically apologetics cannot convert anyone, only God can do that. But the apostle Paul debated on Mars Hill to get people to think and see that there is evidence for Christianity being true. This can act as an opening for the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to an unbeliever and that person realize the truth of the gospel and God then changes their heart.
Well then apologetics is used by a tool by God in the converting process.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
You're going to have to explain what you're talking about.
As stated in the post-- It is your idea for a belief system. The way of God is to have His same mind and walk as He walks in it.
Yep.
So, by reading the bible daily, learning to apply it to my life, praying about everything, focusing my thoughts on pure, godly, righteous, just, holy, true, praiseworthy things, wherein God says that he will be with me (Philippians 4:6-9), which makes it possible for me to walk in the Spirit (which means that I will fulfill the righteous ordinance of the Law and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, Romans 8:4-8, Galatians 5:16-25), and give all diligence to add to my faith virtue, knowledge, self-control, persistence, brotherly kindness and love, which will ensure that I am neither barren nor unfruitful in my walk, and will ensure that I never stumble, and am richly administered an abundant entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of God and Jesus I'm not actually "having the same mind, and walking as he walks"?
You gave yourself away when you stated that you administered an abundant entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of God and Jesus I'm not actually "having the same mind, and walking as he walks"?

We who are of Christ have His same mind, and we do walk as He walks in His same light and is perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect just as Jesus was perfected in the Father no different at all.
Then you'll have to explain to me how you think it's done.
Because that phrase is a phrase Paul describes in Philippians 2:1-5.
I do not follow Paul in his opinions for Christ. I follow Jesus in his. they are not the same teachings at all.
You mean like you have done here?
As in?
Like you're doing here?
As in?
Apparently not. You make it pretty clear that unless we think like you, we're doing it all wrong and need to agree with you.
Oh No' least you think as He thinks in His same light. All I can do is repeat that what He said you should be in Him. You confuse me with Him.
😳
Jesus dying for Jesus? Where on earth did you get that from?
Huh?
Well, you're definitely showing signs of what Peter tells us about this issue.
I Am?
2Pe 3:15-18 WEB 15 Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Pauls wisdom was of himself in opinions. i\It is better for me to follow the way of Jesus than it is to follow the way of Paul or any other man.

i dont remember Jesus following Paul do you?
So, Jesus dying for the sin of the ungodly, and rising from the dead to justify us with God, and saving us from our sin and making us spiritually alive is the wrong gospel?
Oh no' because of his example it is who we become like him.
Having to obtain a righteousness which exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees isn't possible, even though Jesus said it's necessary to enter God's Kingdom?
He was clear the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation but is within you Luke 17:29-21. Not manty believe him in that statement though, they seek a kingdom to come they can observe dont you?
Isn't the new birth possible, since Jesus said it was necessary to enter God's Kingdom and to see it?
Oh yes -- we becomne like Him in that new birth, born again, and in being born again it is a matter of seeing Him as He is and becoming like Him. 1 John 3, when you see Him as He is ye shall be like Him.
I suppose that it's a good thing that I don't take your word as gospel, and instead do what Paul told the Thessalonians to do, and what Luke said was that made the Bereans more noble than the Thessalonians.
I suppose it is a good thing for anyone who refuses to be as the Father of it as He demands of you to be and walk as He walks in His same light. But to Him -- least you do is a bad thing.
Test all things. Abhor that which is evil and cling to that which is good.
Most dont test the spirits they look to someone such as Paul for enlightenment instead of God who does the enlightening just as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16, and Abraham, and Moses and Adam, and 120.
They searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were true....
Searching the scripture can be a life long venter, but if one will receieve from God that what the scripture is about you no longer will need that tutorial, KJV says schoolmaster to lead you to Him.
So, thank you Gary, but so far, you've offered nothing which would give me cause to believe you.
I havent offered you anything that Jesus didnt offer you.
Especially when Paul actually describes the nature of Grace, and then tells us to not give in to the fraud perpetrated by false teachers.
Paul is not my teacher, God is. Anything less than what God says you should be is of a religious belief.
Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.
I am not looking for the blessed hope, I live the blessed hope, He in me and I in Him are one just as Jesus prayed to our God for me to be in John 17, as he was in the Father himself.

Most dont see the AND between God AND Jesus. They have made Jesus a god in the place of the only only one true God.

And you despise me for having from God that what Jesus came to show me the way to the Father he had in himself that I may obtain the same in the Father he had in Him to be perfect even as my Father in haven is perfect.

Paul is keeping you from Him. You follow Paul instead of Jesus is all. Your quotes was from Paul not Jesus.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
As stated in the post-- It is your idea for a belief system. The way of God is to have His same mind and walk as He walks in it.

You gave yourself away when you stated that you administered an abundant entrance into the everlasting Kingdom of God and Jesus I'm not actually "having the same mind, and walking as he walks"?
You should read 2 Peter 1:10-11.
I didn't say that I administered myself, but that I am administered by God and Jesus because I focused on increasing the attributes of godliness.

2Pe 1:10-11 WEB 10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

So, does that mean that you oppose Peter now too?


We who are of Christ have His same mind, and we do walk as He walks in His same light and is perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect just as Jesus was perfected in the Father no different at all.
Yep. Exactly as Paul says in Philippians 2:1-5.

Phi 2:1-5 WEB 1 If therefore there is any exhortation in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any tender mercies and compassion, 2 make my joy full by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind; 3 doing nothing through rivalry or through conceit, but in humility, each counting others better than himself; 4 each of you not just looking to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others. 5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,

I do not follow Paul in his opinions for Christ. I follow Jesus in his. they are not the same teachings at all.
Well, as you've not been able to show how you do this, nor have you supported your claim with the written word, I'll take it that whatever you believe, it's not the biblical Jesus.

As in?

As in?
It's your statement, so I'm simply asking questions.

Oh No' least you think as He thinks in His same light. All I can do is repeat that what He said you should be in Him. You confuse me with Him.
Well, if you're confused, then you should stop talking and start reading, so you can pay attention to what I stated, and what is written.

Your words. They made no sense to me either. So, go back to your post and look at what you said, then come back and please clarify.

Indeed!
You twisted what Paul said, making it about him, when he says that in doing so, you're actually making it entirely about yourself.

Rom 2:1 WEB Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things.

Which is pretty much what Jesus said too.

Mat 7:2 WEB For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

Pauls wisdom was of himself in opinions. i\It is better for me to follow the way of Jesus than it is to follow the way of Paul or any other man.
Rom 2:1 WEB Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things.

Mat 7:2 WEB For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

So far, you've not shown on any level that you are following Jesus.


i dont remember Jesus following Paul do you?
You're the only one who keeps saying that.

Oh no' because of his example it is who we become like him.
Curious how that works.

According to 2 Corinthians 3, it's by God's Spirit and we are changed from glory to glory, each new day, into the likeness of Jesus.


He was clear the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation but is within you Luke 17:29-21. Not manty believe him in that statement though, they seek a kingdom to come they can observe dont you?
In what manner is the Kingdom of God within you?


Oh yes -- we becomne like Him in that new birth, born again, and in being born again it is a matter of seeing Him as He is and becoming like Him. 1 John 3, when you see Him as He is ye shall be like Him.
Indeed. What do you think that the new birth is and consists of?


I suppose it is a good thing for anyone who refuses to be as the Father of it as He demands of you to be and walk as He walks in His same light. But to Him -- least you do is a bad thing.

Most dont test the spirits they look to someone such as Paul for enlightenment instead of God who does the enlightening just as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16, and Abraham, and Moses and Adam, and 120.
Well, let's do this then.

Is Jesus the Christ?
Did he rise again physically, in his body?
Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh?


Searching the scripture can be a life long venter, but if one will receieve from God that what the scripture is about you no longer will need that tutorial, KJV says schoolmaster to lead you to Him.
Yes it is a lifelong venture.
One the followers of Jesus are to engage in daily.
What do you mean when you say that if you receive from God, you'll no longer need the tutorial of scripture?


I havent offered you anything that Jesus didnt offer you.
You haven't actually offered me anything at all.


Paul is not my teacher, God is. Anything less than what God says you should be is of a religious belief.
And yet you reject what God is teaching by rejecting the wisdom given to you through Paul.

I am not looking for the blessed hope, I live the blessed hope, He in me and I in Him are one just as Jesus prayed to our God for me to be in John 17, as he was in the Father himself.
So, your eternal life is here on earth?
What does this mean?


Most dont see the AND between God AND Jesus. They have made Jesus a god in the place of the only only one true God.
Considering that Jesus himself has stated that he and the Father are one, and that before Abraham was, I AM, and that He's the Good Shepherd, as described in Ezekiel 34, and that Ezekiel passage states that YHVH is the Good Shepherd, I'd say that you stopped reading the bible way too soon.

And you despise me for having from God that what Jesus came to show me the way to the Father he had in himself that I may obtain the same in the Father he had in Him to be perfect even as my Father in haven is perfect.
I don't despise you at all. I find myself wondering how on earth you think you are following Jesus.

Paul is keeping you from Him.
Not according to the scriptures. I've been reconciled with Jesus through the cross and the blood of Jesus, and his resurrection.


You follow Paul instead of Jesus is all.
You can indeed believe that. You've failed to provide any evidence of this.

Your quotes was from Paul not Jesus.
I quoted several passages throughout the bible.
So, as Jesus is the Word of God, and as it's written in Psalm 40, Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me....
I'm quite satisfied with the entirety of the biblical narrative.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
You should read 2 Peter 1:10-11.
I didn't say that I administered myself, but that I am administered by God and Jesus because I focused on increasing the attributes of godliness.

2Pe 1:10-11 WEB 10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

So, does that mean that you oppose Peter now too?
Oh no' not at all. Interpretation with the mind of God is paramount for understanding.
Making your calling and election sure is to know the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation but is within you. Luke 17:20-21. That is the only place His kingdom is according to Jesus, and the only entrance into the eternal kingdom, man is the temple of God. And that isnt an effort we try and be, it is the gift of God that we be.

Eternity is not a time frame -- eternity is in constant living it.


Yep. Exactly as Paul says in Philippians 2:1-5.

Phi 2:1-5 WEB 1 If therefore there is any exhortation in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any tender mercies and compassion, 2 make my joy full by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind; 3 doing nothing through rivalry or through conceit, but in humility, each counting others better than himself; 4 each of you not just looking to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others. 5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,


Well, as you've not been able to show how you do this, nor have you supported your claim with the written word, I'll take it that whatever you believe, it's not the biblical Jesus.
If you are not as He is as Jesus was of Him then I can understand why His way is not biblical for you and Jesus cannot support his claim that you be like the Father of it, He in you and you in Him as one as Jesus was one in Him. John 17.
It's your statement, so I'm simply asking questions.
Me to. As in?
Well, if you're confused, then you should stop talking and start reading, so you can pay attention to what I stated, and what is written.
Confusion is settled in me having the mind of Christ, a mind that is anointed of God. Paul is not the way, you are not the way and I am not the way, God is my way not any other and God was Jesus way and none other. If you cant understand that then it isnt I who is confused.
Your words. They made no sense to me either. So, go back to your post and look at what you said, then come back and please clarify.
Not sure which you are speaking of.
Indeed!
You twisted what Paul said, making it about him, when he says that in doing so, you're actually making it entirely about yourself.
It may seem twisted from a disposition of a belief instead of having the mind of Christ to compare.
Rom 2:1 WEB Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things.

Which is pretty much what Jesus said too.

Mat 7:2 WEB For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

Rom 2:1 WEB Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things.

Mat 7:2 WEB For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

So far, you've not shown on any level that you are following Jesus.
All I can do is compare what people say of themselves with what Jesus said of himself and who you should be and would be if you are as he is in the Father and perfect as He is perfect. In that judgment is made and it isnt to hard to see who is like Him and who isnt if you have His same mind.

And as with Jesus, people will look at it and make judgment based on their own understanding just as you are doing with me. So according to Jesus with what ever judgment I judge, in this case the mind of Christ, then I am judged the same just as the same judged Jesus no different at all.

You condemn me in your judgment of not showing any level that I follow Jesus, so therefore your own judgment condemns you just as Jesus said -- doesnt it?
You're the only one who keeps saying that.
I know. And no one seems to be able to answer!
Curious how that works.

According to 2 Corinthians 3, it's by God's Spirit and we are changed from glory to glory, each new day, into the likeness of Jesus.
That is Pauls assessment and one reason I do not follow Paul and follow Jesus.

Was Jesus changed from glory to glory each day into the likeness of God, or was he stead fast in who he was in the Father? For me Jesus is the way and never changes from glory to glory and having the same from God myself, there is no change to be made at all for that change has already been made.

You are not looking at it from Jesus standpoint, you are looking at it from Pauls standpoint.
In what manner is the Kingdom of God within you?
The same way it was in Jesus, In Abraham, in Moses in Mary, in 120, it is by My Spirit says the Lord to be ye therefore perfect as He is perfect. See Matt 3:16, this is How God does in man by His SPirit. there is no other way to know Him or His heaven least He come to you and open it. Not even jesus could escape this fact.
Indeed. What do you think that the new birth is and consists of?
Being like the Father of it and walk as He walks in His same light. he in me and I in Him as one as Jesus was one in Him. John 17.
Well, let's do this then.

Is Jesus the Christ?
Yes Jesus was anointed of God, same anointing all enjoy who has received from God the same as he did which is Christ in us.
Did he rise again physically, in his body?
According to most he has not and they are waiting for him to come out of that grave someday and save them. they have been waiting for that event for over 2000 years.

As for me the Christ is risen from that grave and did come that I may be like Him. He brought a new heaven and earth, old things passed away and all things became new. Jesus referred to this new man arising as born again.
Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh?
All men come in the flesh LOL. He was made of a woman born under the law just as all sons of man is. He was son of God by SPirit just as we all are who is born of God.
Yes it is a lifelong venture.
One the followers of Jesus are to engage in daily.
What do you mean when you say that if you receive from God, you'll no longer need the tutorial of scripture?
Jesus said in John 16;23, in that day ye shall ask me nothing but go to the Father for yourself and He will give it you.

If God is able to convey His message Himself in me, then what man wrote of Him in a bible is second hand information because God Himself becomes the messenger. In having His same mind, Spirit, as Jesus did what can a bible add that God Himself is not able? And in that all the book is good for is a tutorial for those who do not have God as their own mind to think as He thinks in His same light. Do you know why that is so difficult for you to understand?
You haven't actually offered me anything at all.
I know.
And yet you reject what God is teaching by rejecting the wisdom given to you through Paul.
There ya go, Paul has for you the better way than God Himself can give you in John 16:23.
Continued next post. ran out of characters
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
So, your eternal life is here on earth?
Absolutely heaven or hell is the state of ones being, for the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it isnt a place we go and observe someday, it is within you least you think Jesus lied in Luke 17:20-21
What does this mean?



Considering that Jesus himself has stated that he and the Father are one, and that before Abraham was, I AM, and that He's the Good Shepherd, as described in Ezekiel 34, and that Ezekiel passage states that YHVH is the Good Shepherd, I'd say that you stopped reading the bible way too soon.
It means that in John 17 when Jesus prayed to his God for me to be one in the Father with He in me and I in Him as one as Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in him as one. And it always has been that way with man and God. Before Abraham was Adam who received and became one in the Father and like Him. Gen 3:22.

Abraham received the same, Moses received the same Jesus received the same Matt 3:16, 120 receieve the same and we all today who has received the same are as He is.

I am that I am because of He who is in me, the same One who was before Abraham.

But I havent stopped reading the bible. What is more important than just reading it is -- I started living it.
I don't despise you at all. I find myself wondering how on earth you think you are following Jesus.
I do not think I follow Jesus at all, it is a fact that I did follow Jesus to the same Father he had and came to lead me to.
You really do not understand how that can be , that is very obvious.
Not according to the scriptures. I've been reconciled with Jesus through the cross and the blood of Jesus, and his resurrection.
I have been reconciled to God and with Jesus by having the same from the Father he had from Him, He in me and I in Him are one. Reconciled back into His same image.
You can indeed believe that. You've failed to provide any evidence of this.
Jesus had the same problem trying to prove who he was in the Father as well and look how he ended up in that effort to those who didnt understand him either.
I quoted several passages throughout the bible.
Everyone does that dont they? and seems everyone has different interpretations of those quotes and argue about it.
So, as Jesus is the Word of God, and as it's written in Psalm 40, Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me....
I'm quite satisfied with the entirety of the biblical narrative.
The whole book is about us and who we are or are not.

As for me God is satisfied with who I Am in Him, he in me and I in Him are one. When one actually understands who I Am is ye shall be like Him, like I Am. 1 John 3.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Apologetics is just a lot of talk. That's all apologists can do is talk. There's no substance to apologetics, and if you actually want to see a demonstration from an apologist of God's alleged power, you'll certainly be disappointed.
Only God can cause the increase. If skeptics are not open to discerning in seeking the truth, then they are not being skeptics. Only those that seek, shall find. Mockers do not seek. Those that seek the truth are being "honest" with themselves. Those skeptics have found the truth and have come to believe in Jesus Christ & that God had raised Him from the dead.

Ralph O. Muncaster was such a one as an honest skeptic and God caused the increase because he was seeking for the truth.

Ralph O. Muncaster's Open Library

Again, all honest skeptics are to seek & discern each of his research. Those who seek the truth, will find Him. Those who find Him, will know that they should confirm the truth with Jesus Christ & not just accept everything being taught to them or shared with them from honest skeptics.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

So regardless of the apologetics, for they are nothing, and not every one of them are abiding in His words to speak the truth, but what is of the truth, God will cause the increase for honest skeptics to find the Truth and that truth is the Lord Jesus Christ.

So I do not have a problem with skeptics not being "converted" because I know those honest skeptics seeking the truth will find Him.

And when I refer to converted, I mean those who believe in Jesus Christ to be saved as they trust Him as their Good Shepherd & Friend to help them to follow Him. I am not referring to the errant evangelical method of being converted by making a commitment to follow Christ for the assurance of salvation when no one can get that assurance of salvation when by that commitment is the knowledge of sin, thus they doubt their salvation. BUT when our hope is in Christ Jesus, not just for salvation that we are saved, but for the hope we have in Him for help in following Him.. 1 John 3:3,8 & 2 Timothy 4:18 & Jude 1:24-25

That is why it is simply written that the just shall live by faith, in Jesus Christ & all His promises to us for why we can rest in Him for everything in living this reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ. Our confidence is in Him to finish what He has started in us to His glory. Philippians 1:6-11

That is why little children are free to come to Him for all they can really do is trust the Lord. Mark 10:13-15 Matthew 11:25-30
 

JAG

Active member

"Why is apologetics so ineffective in converting skeptics?"​


One reason right here:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God
that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then
to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is
revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just
as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.__Paul, The Great
Apostle to the Gentiles (Romans 1:16-17)

It is the gospel and NOT intellectualisms that is the power of God
that brings salvation.

Note that the text says brings salvation to "everyone that believes."
And THAT is FAITH. Believe = faith.

In the gospel a righteousness is revealed ~~ and righteousness that
is "by FAITH from first to last."

Note that the text says "The righteous will live by FAITH"

What about apologetics? William Lane Craig, perhaps the world's top
Christian apologist, says:

"I think . . . fundamentally, the way we know Christianity to be true is
by the self-authenticating witness of God's Holy Spirit."

See William Lane Craig's Reasonable faith, pages 35,39,43

Then Craig says later on in Reasonable Faith, that Christian apologetics
provides what he calls a "double warrant" ~~ that is, the FIRST and MOST
IMPORTANT is the witness of the Holy Spirit that tells us Christianity is
true , , , then AFTER THAT , , , comes apologetics that provides a "double"
or a "second (2nd)" warrant ~~ warrant is a $5 world for reasons to believe.

____________


The following facts are indisputable:

Christianity is a FAITH.

The word FAITH occurs hundreds of times in the Bible and is presented as being
absolutely essential to sustaining the Christian FAITH.

So?

So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true at the certainty-level
of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to exercise FAITH in God.

It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and would no longer be true.

(1) "without faith it is impossible to please God"

(2) "for by grace are you saved through faith"

(3) "he that comes to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

(4) "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

(5) God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have eternal life

And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that DEMAND FAITH would no longer be needed or be true.

Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the certainty-level
of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this:

He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we now know, based upon
empirical evidence that rises to the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists and that
Biblical Christianity as been established as true with empirical evidences that rise to
the certainty level of 2 + 2 = 4 and all this is now just as certain as is the fact that
2 + 2 = 4 and New York City exists

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists or that 2 + 2 = 4.

Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has been wrecked and destroyed.

"for by grace are you saved through faith"

"without faith it is impossible to please God"

____________


However, here are 20 jewels of argumentation for the existence of God for
those so inclined:


[]











 

Dizerner

Well-known member
No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists or that 2 + 2 = 4.

I would disagree. You have to have faith you're not in a matrix and you have to have faith in the brain's ability to do logic. But beyond that, defining what a city is, or what believe is, or what 2 is, or what is is, is not as easy as it intuitively seems to us. Ideas are metaphysical, and not easy describable.

I don't think Biblical faith means "a leap in the dark" nor do I think it means "believing against evidence," I think it means trusting something revealed to you; there is a prior "thing" you are putting trust in that you have in fact experienced. The virtues of faith are trusting the character revealed to you.
 

JAG

Active member
I would disagree. You have to have faith you're not in a matrix and you have to have faith in the brain's ability to do logic. But beyond that, defining what a city is, or what believe is, or what 2 is, or what is is, is not as easy as it intuitively seems to us. Ideas are metaphysical, and not easy describable.

I don't think Biblical faith means "a leap in the dark" nor do I think it means "believing against evidence," I think it means trusting something revealed to you; there is a prior "thing" you are putting trust in that you have in fact experienced. The virtues of faith are trusting the character revealed to you.

"You have to have faith you're not in a matrix"__Dizerner

Heh heh, Morpheus would agree with you. And Neo too. And actually my friend you
ARE in The Matrix. You, the real you, right now are in a tank plugged into the machines
and they want to turn you into an Eveready Flashlight Battery. Meanwhile enjoy your
digital life here inside Thread World as you live out your digital self as Dizerner

May The Force be with you.

Scot me up Beamy.

Best Regards,

JAG
 
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