Why is apologetics so ineffective in converting skeptics?

Iconoclast

Active member
I never stated anything of the sort. Since you cannot understand my simple statements backed by Scriptural reference it is of no wonder as to why you do not understand biblical salvation.
Many pause at the carnal philosophical notion known as free will. it is of course a fantasy not based in scripture at all.
Our wills are bound by our nature.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
I never stated anything of the sort. Since you cannot understand my simple statements backed by Scriptural reference it is of no wonder as to why you do not understand biblical salvation.
I see' so you actually chose to not be born of God.

Biblical salvation? As in your choice for salvation?

Na, my choice was to receive from God His salvation and walk in it as He walks in it. His way is not your way at all.

Your interpretation for biblical salvation has been given you from the creed you follow from some religious beliefs system who has developed theior own laws for salvation.

Gods salvation is Him manifest in me, He in me and I in Him are one. See John 17, His salvation awaits you to be as well. But you know, and I know, and God knows, His way for salvation to be in you isnt going to work for His salvation in you.
 
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ziapueblo

Active member
Apologetics is just a lot of talk. That's all apologists can do is talk. There's no substance to apologetics, and if you actually want to see a demonstration from an apologist of God's alleged power, you'll certainly be disappointed.
I agree that apologetics is not how one brings another to Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can change the hearts and minds of men. We must live a life in Christ, when we offend, we repent to God and ask forgiveness of those we have offended. This is the Orthodox opinion.
 

rakovsky

Active member
I agree that apologetics is not how one brings another to Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can change the hearts and minds of men. We must live a life in Christ, when we offend, we repent to God and ask forgiveness of those we have offended. This is the Orthodox opinion.
It seems 5hat Apol9getics can be part of bringing someone to Christ, like explaining prophecies to them. The OP is mistaken because apologetics includes factual information, not just fictional "talk."
 
I agree that apologetics is not how one brings another to Christ. Only the Holy Spirit can change the hearts and minds of men. We must live a life in Christ, when we offend, we repent to God and ask forgiveness of those we have offended. This is the Orthodox opinion.
I've often wondered why the Holy Spirit only converts people who have contact with missionaries. Why can't the Holy Spirit understand that if he always attends missionaries, then it looks like the missionaries are doing the converting?
 

rakovsky

Active member
I've often wondered why the Holy Spirit only converts people who have contact with missionaries. Why can't the Holy Spirit understand that if he always attends missionaries, then it looks like the missionaries are doing the converting?
People convert without necessarily having contact with missionaries.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
I've often wondered why the Holy Spirit only converts people who have contact with missionaries. Why can't the Holy Spirit understand that if he always attends missionaries, then it looks like the missionaries are doing the converting?

The HS uses someone else to avoid an error.
 
The HS uses someone else to avoid an error.
Why would the Holy Spirit need to worry about errors? Human missionaries making up Holy Spirits sure would worry about errors.

Anyway, if I can easily explain conversions to Christianity by assuming only Christians, and I can explain conversions that way, then there's no need to make any more assumptions about Sprits, holy or otherwise. The more assumptions we make, the more chances we have to be wrong. You know--Occam's Razor.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member
Why would the Holy Spirit need to worry about errors? Human missionaries making up Holy Spirits sure would worry about errors.

Anyway, if I can easily explain conversions to Christianity by assuming only Christians, and I can explain conversions that way, then there's no need to make any more assumptions about Sprits, holy or otherwise. The more assumptions we make, the more chances we have to be wrong. You know--Occam's Razor.

Good point.
 

ziapueblo

Active member
I've often wondered why the Holy Spirit only converts people who have contact with missionaries. Why can't the Holy Spirit understand that if he always attends missionaries, then it looks like the missionaries are doing the converting?
God's grace has no boundaries. Some will respond and some will choose not to.
 
God's grace has no boundaries. Some will respond and some will choose not to.
If God's grace has no boundaries, then everybody would need to accept it (I'm assuming by "respond" to God's grace you mean to accept it). If some people don't accept God's grace, then that's a boundary on God's grace, a boundary you said cannot exist. So what you've posted here is self-contradictory.

Another problem with what you say here is that it's not factual. I can say with complete confidence that no sane person ever chose not to accept God's grace. Any person who would make such a choice would be mad because they would be choosing eternal damnation. Such a person needs psychological help rather than punishment. The reason that some people appear to have chosen not to accept God's grace is that there is no such grace. It's impossible to accept that which doesn't exist.

My advice to you is to think more critically about what you post. In two short sentences you made both a logical error and a factual error. You may assure some people who already are inclined to believe, but for those of us who do think critically, you'll just be driving one more nail into Christianity's coffin.
 

ziapueblo

Active member
If God's grace has no boundaries, then everybody would need to accept it (I'm assuming by "respond" to God's grace you mean to accept it). If some people don't accept God's grace, then that's a boundary on God's grace, a boundary you said cannot exist. So what you've posted here is self-contradictory.
What I meant by "has no boundaries" is that the Holy Spirit does not only use those who work in missionary settings. I guess you could say that "the boundary" of God's grace is our free will. Christ does not force us to follow Him.

It's impossible to accept that which doesn't exist.
You may to believe what you wish.

You may assure some people who already are inclined to believe, but for those of us who do think critically, you'll just be driving one more nail into Christianity's coffin.
Ok. Thanks for your advice.
 

rakovsky

Active member
Do they ever convert having no contact with Christianity?
It depends on what you mean by No Contact with Christianity. People have probably converted to Christianity without having contact with missionaries or preachers. In WW2, a Soviet soldier who was a hero at Stalingrad found a Bible and it was a turning point in him becoming Christian and after the war he became a monk. So theoretically someone with no other contact with Christianity could find a Bible in his or her language and just convert based on his or her reading of the Bible.
 
It depends on what you mean by No Contact with Christianity. People have probably converted to Christianity without having contact with missionaries or preachers. In WW2, a Soviet soldier who was a hero at Stalingrad found a Bible and it was a turning point in him becoming Christian and after the war he became a monk. So theoretically someone with no other contact with Christianity could find a Bible in his or her language and just convert based on his or her reading of the Bible.
Reading the Bible is contact with Christianity. If the Holy Spirit is real, then we should expect to see people converting to Christianity with no evangelists or Bibles at all. We don't see that. So the rational person concludes that Christianity is a human enterprise and nothing more.
 

rakovsky

Active member
Reading the Bible is contact with Christianity. If the Holy Spirit is real, then we should expect to see people converting to Christianity with no evangelists or Bibles at all. We don't see that. So the rational person concludes that Christianity is a human enterprise and nothing more.
Well, that is not how Christianity says that it spreads. According to Christianity, the person needs some information about Christianity for them to convert. For example, Romans 10 says,
14. But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15. And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

The only case in which Christianity considers people with no information to become somewhat Christianlike or Christians in some spiritual sense is when Jews or pagans have writings that are analogous to Christian writings. One example of this is when Isaiah 53 has its ideology about the Messiah undergoing Substitutionary Atonement. There is a concept in this case of the "Church" of the righteous Israelites.
 
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