Why is it ?

TomFL

Well-known member
If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God find it necessary to blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God find it necessary to blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Where does that verse say that God found it "necessary"?
I don't see it saying that in the verse.


Are you claiming that God can only do things He deems "necessary" to do, and is prohibited from doing things He simply CHOOSES to do?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Where does that verse say that God found it "necessary"?
I don't see it saying that in the verse.


Are you claiming that God can only do things He deems "necessary" to do, and is prohibited from doing things He simply CHOOSES to do?
Are you denying God did it with the purpose of preventing them from believing and being converted

Do you imagine he just did it gratuitously and without a purpose ?

You did not answer the question

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why not ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Are you denying God did it with the purpose of preventing them from believing and being converted

I'm not "denying" or "affirming" anything.

I'm simply pointing out that your question is rigged, fallacious, and bogus.

Do you imagine he just did it gratuitously and without a purpose ?

I'm not "imagining", "denying" or "affirming" anything.

I'm simply pointing out that your question is edit per mod fallacious, and edit per mod

You seem very confused.
For God to "choose" to do something does NOT imply in any way, shape, or form that it is "without a purpose". So why are you trying to change the subject?

You did not answer the question

Because I'm honest, and honour truth (unlike you), I make it a point to not answer fallacious
and rigged questions.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I'm not "denying" or "affirming" anything.

I'm simply pointing out that your question is rigged, fallacious, and bogus.



I'm not "imagining", "denying" or "affirming" anything.

I'm simply pointing out that your question is rigged, fallacious, and bogus.

You seem very confused.
For God to "choose" to do something does NOT imply in any way, shape, or form that it is "without a purpose". So why are you trying to change the subject?



Because I'm honest, and honour truth (unlike you), I make it a point to not answer fallacious
and rigged questions.

Chuckle

But you still have not answered the question

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why not ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Chuckle

But you still have not answered the question

That's because it's a fallacious question.

I have no obligation to "answer" ANY "questions" from you.

I'm just pointing out the tricks and underhanded debate tactics you're using, for the benefit of others.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That's because it's a fallacious question.

I have no obligation to "answer" ANY "questions" from you.

I'm just pointing out the tricks and underhanded debate tactics you're using, for the benefit of others.
Those who can do

Those who cannot make excuses

you still have not answered the question

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Still no answer

Because:

1) It's a fallacious question containing a FALSE premise (which I've pointed out to you REPEATEDLY)

2) We haven't agreed on a salary for you to pay me, if you're going to "demand" I work for you.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Because:

1) It's a fallacious question containing a FALSE premise (which I've pointed out to you REPEATEDLY)

2) We haven't agreed on a salary for you to pay me, if you're going to "demand" I work for you.
There was no premise in this question


If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

You simply cannot answer the question but insist on posting anyhow
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I don't answer "why" questions about God.
I leave that up to Him.

Unlike you, I don't demand that God justify Himself before you.
I did not ask God to justify himself

i asked those who believe as you do to answer a question

It is pretty obvious you cannot

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I did not ask God to justify himself

i asked those who believe as you do to answer a question

You asked me "why" God does something.

If God has revealed the answer to "why" in Scripture, then you can simply go to Scripture, rather than me.

If God has NOT revealed "why" He has done something, then I don't have an answer that He hasn't given us.


It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You asked me "why" God does something.

If God has revealed the answer to "why" in Scripture, then you can simply go to Scripture, rather than me.

If God has NOT revealed "why" He has done something, then I don't have an answer that He hasn't given us.


It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
In other words you cannot answer

You first problem is the question concerned your theology

not a statement from God

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel (your theology)

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God find it necessary to blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
I have to agree with Theo. I don't see where it says anything about being necessary.
I do however see where God hardened Pharoah's heart, and subsequent passages in other sections of scripture appear to make it that Pharoah didn't want to know God, so he hardened his own heart, and God just affirmed what he wanted--- to be left alone.
So, I see these passages you're referring to as God simply giving people what they want....
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
In other words you cannot answer

Correct, I cannot answer on behalf of God.
I'm not God.
I'm sorry if you weren't able to figure that out.

You first problem is the question concerned your theology

not a statement from God

Seriously?!

So did you simply FORGET what you asked in your OP, or are you being intentionally disingenuous?

Let me REMIND YOU what you actually asked:

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God find it necessary to blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

"Why did GOD find it necessary...."

That is NOT a question about me.
That is a question about GOD.

And none of your proof-texts said that "God found it necessary".
So your question is fallacious, and includes a false premise.

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel (your theology)

Nope.
That is GOD's theology.
I simply choose to believe God (unlike you).

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

I will let God speak for Himself.

Personally, I don't CARE "why" God did it.
He determined it appropriate, He's God, He can do whatever He wants.

Unlike you, I don't judge God, and I don't presume to challenge His actions.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I have to agree with Theo. I don't see where it says anything about being necessary.
I do however see where God hardened Pharoah's heart, and subsequent passages in other sections of scripture appear to make it that Pharoah didn't want to know God, so he hardened his own heart, and God just affirmed what he wanted--- to be left alone.
So, I see these passages you're referring to as God simply giving people what they want....
So forget the necessity It was removed after the first reply and not a necessary part of question

Why does God blind those unable to see

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

this verse clearly notes God did it so as to prevent belief

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Hid truth lest they believe

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Correct, I cannot answer on behalf of God.
I'm not God.
I'm sorry if you weren't able to figure that out.



Seriously?!

So did you simply FORGET what you asked in your OP, or are you being intentionally disingenuous?

Let me REMIND YOU what you actually asked:



"Why did GOD find it necessary...."

That is NOT a question about me.
That is a question about GOD.

And none of your proof-texts said that "God found it necessary".
So your question is fallacious, and includes a false premise.



Nope.
That is GOD's theology.
I simply choose to believe God (unlike you).



I will let God speak for Himself.

Personally, I don't CARE "why" God did it.
He determined it appropriate, He's God, He can do whatever He wants.

Unlike you, I don't judge God, and I don't presume to challenge His actions.
Sorry but nowhere does God say men are born unable to believe that is your theology not God you are believing

and asking you to defend your theology is not judging God

You are just unable to do so

Why does God blind those unable to see

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Sorry but nowhere does God say men are born unable to believe that is your theology not God you are believing

Well, I'm open to correction, if the Bible supports it.

Please quote where the Bible teaches that babies are born ABLE to believe...

That's okay.... I'll wait.... :)
 

zerinus

Active member
I have to agree with Theo. I don't see where it says anything about being necessary.
I do however see where God hardened Pharoah's heart, and subsequent passages in other sections of scripture appear to make it that Pharoah didn't want to know God, so he hardened his own heart, and God just affirmed what he wanted--- to be left alone.
So, I see these passages you're referring to as God simply giving people what they want....
He has a valid point that you are not addressing. His point is that if people are already born "hardened" and "blinded" due to the Fall, so they cannot "believe" unless God "regenerates" them first (according to Calvinism), why then does God need to harden and blind them again so they would not "believe," according to the scriptures he has quoted? His point is that that presents a problem for Calvinistic theology which they don't have an answer for, and he is right. You have only two options: either address his point, or concede that Calvinistic theology is false. Turning a blind eye to the question does not solve the problem for Calvinism.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Well, I'm open to correction, if the Bible supports it.

Please quote where the Bible teaches that babies are born ABLE to believe...

That's okay.... I'll wait.... :)
It is your doctrine man has no ability to to believe short of regeneration you need to defend it

That man can believe or respond to God positively was shows in the scriptures provided and here as well

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

The questions remains

Why blind one who cannot see

Why stop up the ears of those whop cannot hear

Why withhold understanding from those who cannot understand

If men are born unable to believe and receive the gospel

Why did God blind and harden men so they would not believe and be converted

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Hide truth so as to prevent seeing, hearing and understanding

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

this verse clearly notes God did it so as to prevent belief

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Hid truth lest they believe

Matthew 13:13–15 (KJV 1900)
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


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