Why Jews will never accept Jesus

e v e

Super Member
Did he ever say that he was Catholic? He didn't say it in this thread and anyway he contradicts Catholicism when he says, "The New Testament contradicts the teachings of the Tanakh/Torah."
actually when properly translated, the prophets and NT say the same thing... but none of the translations are good so what I am saying is not apparent... and most people do go by 'translations' -- included catholicism. we see the result, which is the many opinions. It's impossible to battle all the opinions...IF that type of debate was how things work with Him. It's not.
 

e v e

Super Member
The OT establishes many things that are true that today are ignored. Because no one reads and now many rely on traditions, translations, experts, scholars, pastors..... be they protestant or catholic or whatever... instead of Listening to Him.
 

rakovsky

Active member
This is just rude.
Like I said, sometimes things come across rude when it's in type because you are not meeting the person face to face or hearing their intonation.

In my case I have translator programs and like to write to other people sometimes in their native language to make things easier. So it is not meant as a put-down.

Peace.
 

Open Heart

Active member
So, Israel, who was bound by its own iniquity, was the offering for sin of Israel? I find that interpretation curious...... Just how does a people whom all the prophets, Moses, and God all say are bound by their own iniquity, pay for their own sin?
Furthermore... I've never once seen any passages which refer to the nation/People of Israel, as YHVH's Arm. Do you have any? I did do a search, and found the following article.
It talks about God, and God alone being his own arm.


1 Who has believed our report?

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground.

He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him.

3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.

And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation?

For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

9 And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. (You're going to have to show me where Israel was innocent of deceit)

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.

When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.

By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.
Yes. The metaphor of the servant is used throughout Isaiah, and is identified as "My servant, Jacob." It refers to the obedient faithful, the remnant of Israel, which suffers vicariously for the whole of Israel. You should do a google search on vicarious suffering and get a feel for what the phrase means.
 

Open Heart

Active member
Nope, we're not. We're going about our business in FAITH, Spreading the Gospel to the world, fully aware that the Jewish folks (like most of the pagan "nations") will reject it, which is unimportant. JEsus remains the ONLY NAME by which a human can be justified, and Jesus SIN OFFERING is the only way a human can be CLEANSED of their SIN.

That you don't agree, and "think" you have Biblical reason to, will be that which condemns you when your life is over.
Bob, I have to insist, Christians do get frustrated about certain things. One of the things that really gets under the Christian skin is that Jews are so immune to the Christian gospel. You would think that since the Jews have been given the oracles of God, that more than any other group on earth Jews would flock to Jesus (or at least this is what Christians think). But the exact opposite is true. More than any other people, Jews are resistant to missionary efforts. Even carefully crafted missionary efforts especially designed for Jews, such as the Messianic Judaism movement, have not worked to convert Jews to Jesus. What are Christians to think? Paul's theory was that God was deliberately blinding us, so that it was not an act of rebellion per se, but God himself holding us back. But Christians don't like that idea of us not being responsible for rejecting Jesus.

The idea that perhaps being best taught in the Tanakh, we are have a better foundation in the truth, and that we rightly reject Jesus just never enters the Christian mind as a possibility.
 

Open Heart

Active member
Open heart are you are not a Catholic?
I'm surprised that you ask. I mean, I realize that I'm just one small person in the big world, but honestly I thought that we were friends. You were there when I went through my year of questioning and waiting for God to resolve the problems I was having with Catholicism/Christianity. You were there when the year ended and I gave my long explanation of how things were looking to me and why I was returning to Judaism. And you were there when the mods kicked me out of the RCC room since I was no longer Christian. Anyhow, even though I feel a little hurt that you forgot about me, this post should clear up any misunderstanding you have about where I am -- a baal tshuva, a returnee to Judaism.

Unlike when I was trying to be Catholic and really struggling with its doctrines such as the trinity, I'm feeling a great ease and peace with Judaism. Apparently my conversion to Judaism fundamentally changed something within me, to where returning to Christianity is simply no longer an option for me. Perhaps it is true what they say about the conversion giving a person a Jewish soul or whatever. Certain beliefs, like that a man can be God, are just out of the question. And honestly, a lot of my posts about following the Law and stuff were just very odd coming from a Catholic, don't you think? Being pulled back towards Christianity for sentimental reasons was just ill fated from the get go. Looking back, I'm laughing at myself that I even tried such a thing.

At any rate, it IS good to see you again. I hope you are well, and that the covid situation is not treating you too unkindly.

Shalom
 

Open Heart

Active member
Did he ever say that he was Catholic? He didn't say it in this thread and anyway he contradicts Catholicism when he says, "The New Testament contradicts the teachings of the Tanakh/Torah."
Balshan remembers me from the RCC board. I was raised fundamentalist, became Catholic, became Jewish, thought I was hankering for Catholicism again, and that turned out to be a disaster -- my Jewish conversion definitely changed me. I returned to Judaism. She just doesn't remember that part yet. She probably will, now that I have reminded her.
 

balshan

Well-known member
I'm surprised that you ask. I mean, I realize that I'm just one small person in the big world, but honestly I thought that we were friends. You were there when I went through my year of questioning and waiting for God to resolve the problems I was having with Catholicism/Christianity. You were there when the year ended and I gave my long explanation of how things were looking to me and why I was returning to Judaism. And you were there when the mods kicked me out of the RCC room since I was no longer Christian. Anyhow, even though I feel a little hurt that you forgot about me, this post should clear up any misunderstanding you have about where I am -- a baal tshuva, a returnee to Judaism.

Unlike when I was trying to be Catholic and really struggling with its doctrines such as the trinity, I'm feeling a great ease and peace with Judaism. Apparently my conversion to Judaism fundamentally changed something within me, to where returning to Christianity is simply no longer an option for me. Perhaps it is true what they say about the conversion giving a person a Jewish soul or whatever. Certain beliefs, like that a man can be God, are just out of the question. And honestly, a lot of my posts about following the Law and stuff were just very odd coming from a Catholic, don't you think? Being pulled back towards Christianity for sentimental reasons was just ill fated from the get go. Looking back, I'm laughing at myself that I even tried such a thing.

At any rate, it IS good to see you again. I hope you are well, and that the covid situation is not treating you too unkindly.

Shalom
I was just checking I had the right person and I know we are friends. I don't remember you being kicked out. Maybe it was when I had a break, sometime I needed to have a break. I was checking because some people have changed their user names.

I believe in Yeshua but I think I have a Jewish soul. I mean I have Jewish ancestry way back in the 1800s a great, great grandmother. But when I did Jewish studies everyone thought they knew me and said I must have been at Sinai. That is a concept I really like. The concept that all Jewish people were at Sinai and accepted G-d as their Messiah.

I hope your family are well. I have been thinking of you. We have been in a long lock down but it has dropped the numbers well down to below 5 a day. We have slight lifting of restrictions and are hoping for more. I now have a Jewish granddaughter and grandson. Boy our grand daughter has kept my husband occupied during the lock down. She keeps face timing him and they play mindcraft on line together. With the lighter restrictions we were able to travel to a park and catch up. It brought me to tears, it has been so long.

It is great to get in touch again. Do they have a private messaging thing still?
 

Open Heart

Active member
"Actually, being a former Christian, not only have I read the NT many times, I have studied it in great depth." (Open Heart, Message #14 above)
Catholic =/= "Former Christian"
A Christian is anyone who accepts Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God (God even) who has died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will come again. There are three branches of Christianity: Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox.

IOW, when I was Catholic, I was a Christian. HOwever, that is an oversimplification. I was raised fundamentalist, and went to evangelical churches as a young adult. My spiritual growth has been one of returning to the origins of Gods teachings -- first to the early church and apostolic church (catholic) and then one step further back tot he covenant God established with Israel.
 

Open Heart

Active member
So in other words, many Jews have accepted Jesus over the years, but a major reason why it is hard for the establishment to accept him is because he was a dissident criticising the religious establishment.
I don't think so, actually. I think the historical Jesus was a Pharisee of bet Hillel at a time when bet Shammai had control of the Sanhedrin. He taught the Hillel understanding of Torah, and argued Torah with other Pharisees, much like many arguments are recorded in the Talmud. It is Paul that introduced the "Not the Law, but saved by faith" thing and created a new religion. So Jesus was a nice Jewish man who taught torah, tried to be the messiah, and failed. Just my personal take.
 

Open Heart

Active member
They seem to have abandoned their Catholicism and become an orthodox Jew.

It seems to me that they never actually understood either.

Hebrews makes it really clear that if we abandon Jesus, there is no way to get right with God.
God and I are doing supurbly. Thanks.
 

rakovsky

Active member
I believe in Yeshua but I think I have a Jewish soul. I mean I have Jewish ancestry way back in the 1800s a great, great grandmother. But when I did Jewish studies everyone thought they knew me and said I must have been at Sinai. That is a concept I really like. The concept that all Jewish people were at Sinai and accepted G-d as their Messiah.
FYI the Orthodox Church has an analogous belief where we were all present a the Last Supper.
 

Open Heart

Active member
I hope your family are well. I have been thinking of you. We have been in a long lock down but it has dropped the numbers well down to below 5 a day. We have slight lifting of restrictions and are hoping for more. I now have a Jewish granddaughter and grandson. Boy our grand daughter has kept my husband occupied during the lock down. She keeps face timing him and they play mindcraft on line together. With the lighter restrictions we were able to travel to a park and catch up. It brought me to tears, it has been so long.

It is great to get in touch again. Do they have a private messaging thing still?
Yes, there is PM. It is called "conversations," and you can use it via the envelope icon.

The hardest thing about lockdown is not having prayers in person. My synagogue meets via zoom, and its just not the same. In fact, after several months of faithful zoom attendance, I've started to slack off, truth be told. High holy days were just depressing. I thought of driving an hour and a half to the nearest chabad to eat in their Sukka, but in the end just felt to down to go through all that trouble when its not even my congregation. Hopefully we will have the vaccine by January like they are saying.
 

e v e

Super Member
Bob, I have to insist, Christians do get frustrated about certain things. One of the things that really gets under the Christian skin is that Jews are so immune to the Christian gospel. You would think that since the Jews have been given the oracles of God, that more than any other group on earth Jews would flock to Jesus (or at least this is what Christians think). But the exact opposite is true. More than any other people, Jews are resistant to missionary efforts. Even carefully crafted missionary efforts especially designed for Jews, such as the Messianic Judaism movement, have not worked to convert Jews to Jesus. What are Christians to think? Paul's theory was that God was deliberately blinding us, so that it was not an act of rebellion per se, but God himself holding us back. But Christians don't like that idea of us not being responsible for rejecting Jesus.

The idea that perhaps being best taught in the Tanakh, we are have a better foundation in the truth, and that we rightly reject Jesus just never enters the Christian mind as a possibility.
How you describe things - is off. He is not here for jews . He is here for souls. His people are adm-souls, this being written in hebrew, in the old testament chapters and discussed in prophets. The old testament is not just about 'old ishral' in the BC era..it has transcendent aspects, describing the current times.

denominations such as judaism, or of modern christianity , none of them have any position with Him - only souls do, who listen. It's souls of His, souls who can hear him as the prophets could. He is saving souls not denominations and religions. His people are not followers of 'judaism' or followers of evangelicalism. His people are adm souls who hear Him and listen Him and who He chose. Joining judaism or any christian sect doesn't make one chosen.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Yes, there is PM. It is called "conversations," and you can use it via the envelope icon.

The hardest thing about lockdown is not having prayers in person. My synagogue meets via zoom, and its just not the same. In fact, after several months of faithful zoom attendance, I've started to slack off, truth be told. High holy days were just depressing. I thought of driving an hour and a half to the nearest chabad to eat in their Sukka, but in the end just felt to down to go through all that trouble when its not even my congregation. Hopefully we will have the vaccine by January like they are saying.
Okay I will see if I can use it. I am hopeless with technology.

I pray they are right but I am not holding my breath. This virus is taking a toll on people and I will be glad when we have more lifting of the restrictions. I will enjoy having grandchildren sleep over.
 

rakovsky

Active member
I don't think so, actually. I think the historical Jesus was a Pharisee of bet Hillel at a time when bet Shammai had control of the Sanhedrin. He taught the Hillel understanding of Torah, and argued Torah with other Pharisees, much like many arguments are recorded in the Talmud. It is Paul that introduced the "Not the Law, but saved by faith" thing and created a new religion. So Jesus was a nice Jewish man who taught torah, tried to be the messiah, and failed. Just my personal take.
It makes sense that in some ways Jesus was resembling Hillel. But in the topic of marriage and divorce he seemed strict like Shammai. Further, he has some different explanations for why not follow Torah in some cases. In the case of picking grain on Sabbath, He noted that David ate the shewbread on the Sabbath in "violation", as Jesus says, of Torah, and He elsewhere noted that One greater than Solomon is here.
This thinking shows up in Matthew 12:
Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and yet are innocent? But I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
Then he concludes:
"If only you had known the meaning of ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

The idea in the last sentence has a logic that is different from Hillel's on observance but matches Paul's. Jesus' idea is when it comes to Sabbath observance, He is Lord over the Sabbath and He or His kingdom is greater than the Temple. The underlying premise is that Jesus is bringing in the Messianic paradigm that is greater than the Sabbath observance and thus one can pick grain, etc. even in "violation." If you want a rabbinic analogy, there is a rabbinic idea that in the Messianic age, all feasts vanish except for one, which IIRC is Purim It's something like that.
 

rakovsky

Active member
really? I never knew that about EO.
Right. The idea is that the Last Supper has a "remembrance" that "makes present" the events of the Last Supper. It goes along with "Communion", where we are united with all "Communion" rituals in history. The being present at Sinai is considered an analogy.

EO continues alot of Jewish practices. The worship for instance follows the synagogue and temple often more. See my website rakovskii.livejournal.com
 
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