Why Jews will never accept Jesus

Bob, I have to insist, Christians do get frustrated about certain things. One of the things that really gets under the Christian skin is that Jews are so immune to the Christian gospel. You would think that since the Jews have been given the oracles of God, that more than any other group on earth Jews would flock to Jesus (or at least this is what Christians think). But the exact opposite is true. More than any other people, Jews are resistant to missionary efforts. Even carefully crafted missionary efforts especially design

Because they have been given the oracles? Other than the Passover account, and the story of Esther? A vast majority of Jews know zilch about the OT. The orthodox know a great deal about the Torah, but most Jews do not associate with them. The orthodox are viewed as an oddity by most Jews.

Jews have resisted because they saw Christians as well intentioned , but inferior "goyim. " Its a conceit that many Jews shared in previous generations. Today it seems is shared by both gentiles and Jews who refuse to believe. Now, due to anti-Chritsian liberalsism both share in this conceit as well. .
 
It couldn't possibly be because we see Christianity as a bunch of nonsense. No. Nope, couldn't possibly be that.


Yet even the vast majority of "other" Jews aren't interested in Christianity. Is it conceit? Ignorance? Their own version of oddness? C'mon, spill! :p
You can call me... "Yidel Ben Myer."

Yes.. many Christians are stupid. But, Christianity is for the intelligent as well.

I have witnessed to the conceit.
 
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"But the nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the teachings
and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and
he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming
better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated."
1 Corinthians 2:14

An interesting point... The Greek word translated "folly - nonsense" is the word we also derive "moronic" from.

Religious unbelievers are out of the loop. Yet, in their religious conceit.. feel they are the superior ones. So much so. If Jesus walked the earth today? They would demand he be executed. Forget about Trump derangement syndrome. They would be much worse. Its the nature of fallen man when confronted by the essence of God. Whom they can not know. Because they choose not to know.
 
You can call me... Yidel Ben Myer."
Who called you that?

Were you born Jewish, that you got that name?

Many Christians are stupid. But, Christianity is for the intelligent as well.
I don't think the average Christian is stupid. I think, however, that Christianity is wrong, for many reasons, but Christian theology has managed to twist things in a way to make it seem legit. Add in longtime tradition + forced conversions of nations and ethnic groups way in the past + culture, and you've got a heck of a lot of Christians today.
I have witnessed to the conceit.
I witness the conceit of other religions. Okay, so now what?
 
Who called you that?

Were you born Jewish, that you got that name?


I don't think the average Christian is stupid. I think, however, that Christianity is wrong, for many reasons, but Christian theology has managed to twist things in a way to make it seem legit. Add in longtime tradition + forced conversions of nations and ethnic groups way in the past + culture, and you've got a heck of a lot of Christians today.

I witness the conceit of other religions. Okay, so now what?
Born Jewish.. grew up Jewish. Not to mention, my father helped found our local synagogue.

Christianity has believers that follow errors. Sure.

Christianity is not wrong when its understood correctly. It also had its season of becoming corrupted. Yet, in freedom one is able to seek and find truth, if you are willing to fight for it.

Some of the conceit Jews receive is a mere reflection back. Not always. But some Jews are begging for gentile antagonism. Not to mention God has unbelieving Jews under a curse, and is why we see them scattered today among Gentile nations today.

All religion is based upon conceit. It was at its height when Jesus walked the earth in Israel.

Christianity is not a religion. Though many who form into groups by Christians end up becoming a religion.

Unbelieving Jews have no clue about the spiritual and living relationships they read about with the likes of the prophets having their meaningful spiritual connection with the Lord. There is reason why the prophets are rarely taught in depth in synagogues. For example, it would be embarrassing for Jews to teach Jeremiah from the Hebrew with historical accuracy. It would shoot down their self image of being such a wonderful people chosen by God.... Let alone explaining the goings on concerning Isaiah as well. The Jews have been a very low down raunchy people. If they had not been? There would not be a major section devoted to the prophets.

I receive teachings from a scholar who understands with great depth the Hebrew texts I speak of. I believe he even taught the book of Daniel from both Hebrew and Aramaic writings.
 
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There is NO prophecy in the Tanakh that the Messiah will live in nazareth.

We don't even need that!
We have where he was to be born. Micah 5:2


“But you, Beit-Lechem near Efrat,
so small among the clans of Y’hudah,
out of you will come forth to me
the future ruler of Isra’el,
whose origins are far in the past,
back in ancient times.”




Or, perhaps.....



“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”
 
I think that in midrash there is a style where the rabbis reword TaNaKh passages in quoting or citing the passage.

In Talmud Sanhedrin, the Sanhedrin reworded a Psalm and put as the subject "Naki", whereas in fact in the Psalm, Naki is the object.
Yes, was the answer, Nakai shall be executed, since it is written, in secret places does Naki (40) [the innocent] slay.

FOOTNOTES:
Footnote #40. Naki is employed here as subject.
Ps. X, 8.
SOURCE: https://www.halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_43.html#43a_41
The verse is Psalm 10:8:
"8. He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor."
 
We don't even need that!
We have where he was to be born. Micah 5:2
Yes, you really DO need it. If your gospel states a prophecy exists when it does not, it destroys the credibility of your gospel.

As to the second issue, it refers to the Messiah coming from the line of David, who came from Bethlehem.
 
This is like saying that there is no prophecy about the Messiah in the Book of Jonah.
Nowhere does the Book of Jonah openly refer to the Messiah.....
But here is similar challenge that I came across when talking with an Israeli skeptic of religion: Does the TaNaKh predict the Messiah in a obvious or open enough way that would convince a Skeptic who believes that the Messiah is not a concept in TaNaKh? The person who I wrote to said that nowhere does TaNaKh predict the Messiah at all. In his view, this was something that the rabbis thought up centuries later.
First of all, there is no "prophecy" of "Messiah". The idea of a "Messiah" (capital letter) is a post-Tanakh ("OT") idea, and is never referred to as "Messiah" in Tanakh. ...
"The Messiah" is a post-Tanakh concept. After the concept, that a future great king would arrive was formed, rabbis retconned the concept to find passages that fit. NOWHERE in Tanakh is the future king referred to as "Messiah/Mashiakh". ...
Hebrew is my first language.
  • Rakovsky wrote that "In 2 Samuel 7 (12 - 16), the prophet Nathan gave a prediction to David about his descendant with an eternal dominion"
The verses you quoted refer to Solomon. Zedekiah was the last davidic king of judah 586 bce. There has been no davidic king in > 2400 years.

SOURCE: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317428&page=2

I actually quoted Isaiah 11 and other places that are seen in Jewish tradition as Messianic. Isaiah 11 runs

Zivan did not respond about Isaiah 11, but I suppose that he can just say that it is talking about different special Israelites, or that it is abstract, or that the wondrous attributes in it are literary metaphorical exaggerations.
If there is a messianic prophecy, it must be in one of the books of the Prophets. There is NO prophecy in any of the Prophets regarding the messiah coming from the city of Nazareth. Period.

The fact that your gospel quotes a prophecy that does not exist destroys the credibility of that gospel.
 
If there is a messianic prophecy, it must be in one of the books of the Prophets. There is NO prophecy in any of the Prophets regarding the messiah coming from the city of Nazareth. Period.

The fact that your gospel quotes a prophecy that does not exist destroys the credibility of that gospel.
This has to do with the way that the ancient Jews cited and interpreted verses when it came to prophecies. You see "No Prophecy" there, but this doesn't mean that Matthew didn't.

For instance, the Targum on Isaiah 52 begins:
52:13. Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong:
SOURCE:

The Targum reworded the verse and sees the verse as expressing the idea of the Servant Messiah prospering.

You can reply that there is no prophecy of the Messiah in Isaiah 53, and you would be right that the Messiah is not explicitly mentioned there. But the Targum still sees it as expressing the idea of the Messiah.

The Chabad website explains:
PaRDeS, an acronym formed from the first letters of the four levels of Torah interpretation, means 'orchard' in Hebrew. (The English word Paradise (PaRaDiSe) is derived from the same Persian root).
...
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Derash: Homiletical or interpretative meaning. The word 'midrash' is from the same root. The drash is an interpretation that is not explicit in the text.​
VsHO4640796.JPG
Sod: (lit. secret). The mystical or esoteric meaning.​
So like the rabbis, Matthew can be seeing Nazareth as an implicit or mystical meaning in the prophecy about Samson being called a Nazarite. This is my view of what Matthew is doing.
 
I had a hard time seeing Jonah's story prophecying the three days in the tomb until I started seeing the mystical meaning.
 
Yes, you really DO need it. If your gospel states a prophecy exists when it does not, it destroys the credibility of your gospel.

As to the second issue, it refers to the Messiah coming from the line of David, who came from Bethlehem.
Which prophesy do you speak of?

Mary was in the line of David. No human father was involved in the birth of Christ. So, the line rests on Mary's DNA..

But it looks like you are going to try to get me wrapped in chasing after what you would reject if I studied and found it. Would you not?

I have known Christian pastors who came from Jewish backgrounds. Some orthodox. Its pointless. I am not going tobe your servant boy with this one. Why?

Because I know God will not fail, if He knows you will believe, you will end up believing.

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And
besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who
want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers.
Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied,
‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him,
‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced
even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:25-31


With all the Jews I have seen turn to Christ? Even rabbis sons? Orthodox ones no less?

They will leave you to be without excuse. I have learned to save my energy when I smell a certain scent.

But? Who knows... you might get saved on another day. Just like Saul who was murdering Jewish Christians later turned and was saved.

grace and peace........
 
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
If you do not know what you are talking about? You'd better duck...

You do not have the same relationship with knowing God like the believers found in the OT. Only a regenerate Christian today can identify.

Now... some Jews become mystics and commune with demons pretending to be God's spirit. Some do this in certain Jewish cults.

I wish you well, not hell.

grace and peace......
 
If you do not know what you are talking about? You'd better duck...

You do not have the same relationship with knowing God like the believers found in the OT. Only a regenerate Christian today can identify.

Now... some Jews become mystics and commune with demons pretending to be God's spirit. Some do this in certain Jewish cults.

I wish you well, not hell.

grace and peace......
First of all, yes, Christianity IS a religion, since it has the aspects of a religion; in other words it meets the dictionary definition of a religion.

Secondly, I DO have a relationship with God. Who are you to say that I don't, or that it is somehow less than yours or less than those in the Tanakh? Honestly!
 
Which prophesy do you speak of?

Mary was in the line of David. No human father was involved in the birth of Christ. So, the line rests on Mary's DNA..

But it looks like you are going to try to get me wrapped in chasing after what you would reject if I studied and found it. Would you not?

I have known Christian pastors who came from Jewish backgrounds. Some orthodox. Its pointless. I am not going tobe your servant boy with this one. Why?

Because I know God will not fail, if He knows you will believe, you will end up believing.

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And
besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who
want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers.
Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied,
‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him,
‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced
even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:25-31


With all the Jews I have seen turn to Christ? Even rabbis sons? Orthodox ones no less?

They will leave you to be without excuse. I have learned to save my energy when I smell a certain scent.

But? Who knows... you might get saved on another day. Just like Saul who was murdering Jewish Christians later turned and was saved.

grace and peace........
Well, we were speaking of the prophecy regarding Bethlehem. You want to argue NOW that Jesus fulfills it by being a descendant of David, but 1. that's moving the goalposts because 2. the question was whether the prophecy was about being born in Bethlehem of not. Christian theology is definitely that it is about the Messiah being born in Bethlehem, which is why the rest of your post is irrelevant. Jewish theology says that the prophecy has to do with being a descendent of the King who came from Bethlehem, David.

I don't believe for a second that you have seen Orthodox Jews turn to Christ. There are a handful in history that have done so, none of whom you personally know.

And I have been a Christian in my past. So yes, I know all the things you might say.
 
So like the rabbis, Matthew can be seeing Nazareth as an implicit or mystical meaning in the prophecy about Samson being called a Nazarite. This is my view of what Matthew is doing.
No, what you are saying really, really doesn't work, because Nazarite and Nazarene have very, very different meanings. Matthew is very, very clear that he is referring to a fulfillment of a prophecy that the Messiah will come from the city of Nazareth. There is no such prophecy.
 
No, what you are saying really, really doesn't work, because Nazarite and Nazarene have very, very different meanings. Matthew is very, very clear that he is referring to a fulfillment of a prophecy that the Messiah will come from the city of Nazareth. There is no such prophecy.
This is how mystical or esoteric drash can work because when it comes to mystical interpretation, someone often can honestly not see the verse saying that. Take for instance mystical allusions to the Davidic Messiah that the rabbis would have seen in verses preceding David's time.

The rabbis also saw in the opening to Psalm 22 where it talks about the dawn or morning “ayelet ha-shachar” that this is a reference to Esther the famous woman. The connection, if there is one, must be mystical because she was born maybe 400+ years later.
Rav. Samet writes:
And on Purim: "Al Ayelet Ha-Shachar," which speaks of Esther, as is stated in [chapter] Megilla Nikret: "Why is Esther likened to a hind?"[10] And so it is reasonable to do, and so it is fitting in my eyes.
...
Ravan Ha-Yarchi in his Sefer Ha-Manhig cites another reason for reciting our psalm on Purim: "As is stated in chapter Megilla Nikret: 'Why is Esther likened to a hind?'"

His words are taken from the gemara in Yoma 29a, which offers several explanations for the cryptic phrase appearing in the heading of our psalm, "Ayelet Ha-Shachar."[16] One of the explanations for this phrase is that of R. Zera, which is followed by that of R. Asi:

Why is Esther likened to a hind? To tell you that just as a hind has a narrow womb and is desirable to her mate at all times as at the first time, so was Esther precious to King Achashverosh at all times as at the first time.

R. Asi said: Why is Esther compared to the dawn? To tell you that just as the dawn is the end of the whole night, so is the story of Esther the end of all the miracles.

Probably one source for the comparison between Esther and the mysterious instrument of Psalm 22 is the phonetic resemblance, even though they are quite different words.
 
Welcome back everyone.

Christians are frustrated. Of all the peoples on the earth, they would think that the Jews, to whom God has entrusted the oracles, would accept Jesus as the Messiah. But no. Jewish converts have been ultra few. By and large, more than any other people, Jews have been immune to the gospel. Why? I hope that this post will answer that question.
Thank you for the thoughtful post, Open Heart. I'd tweak your thought a little there, though. I'd have thought of all the peoples on the earth, sinners would accept Jesus as Messiah most but no, many haven't. Are most Jews immune to the gospel? Perhaps. I'll look at what you've written and then suggest some thoughts of my own as to why (if that's the case).
  1. God is ECHAD, one, not three in one. Christianity teaches Trinitarianism, which although it is monotheism, is a muddied monotheism. Judaism on the other hand teaches a pure and simple monotheism. Anything that comprises the oneness of God is unthinkable.
Fair point. I think Trinitarianism is probably misunderstood and offensive to many Jews. Having said that, most Jews were never strict monotheists in ancient times anyway and it doesn't discount acceptance of Jesus as Messiah but just not as God. There have been comparably few conversions to Islam either which has a strict monotheism.
  1. God is not a man. This is the nature of God, and the nature of God is unchanging. It is stated three times in the Tanakh: twice in Numbers 23:19, and a third time in Job 9:32. For something to be reiterated three times -- it must be of great importance. Christianity on the other hand, claims that Jesus is "fully God and fully man," at least in the orthodox version. The two are absolutely incompatible. Christians try to claim that "let us create man in our own image" is a reference to the triune nature of God, but in reality it is God talking to the heavenly court. Similarly, the claims of Elohim being a plural are moot -- it is more similar to the royal "we" used by the Queen.
Christianity would agree that "the nature of God is unchanging". Jesus' divine nature didn't change; he merely took on human nature too. Christianity also doesn't claim that Jesus is "fully God and fully man" but "truly God and truly man", which might seem a distinction without a difference but is actually quite a different claim (e.g. to be "fully man", Jesus would have to negate many of his divine properties but he doesn't). Other two points seem right to me.
  1. The New Testament contradicts the teachings of the Tanakh/Torah. The Torah clearly teaches the following of the Law, in order to receive the blessings of prosperity and the land of Canaan. Psalm 19 states that the Law is "perfect....sweeter also than the honey and the honeycomb." Yet Paul teaches that the Law brings a curse. He teaches that circumcision is nothing and keeping the Sabbath is up to the individual, rather than being necessary for the Jew. These views, that of the Tanakh and those of Paul, are utterly incompatible. The Torah is agreed upon by both Christians and Jews to be the word of God, and is therefore the measuring reed to determine what else is orthodoxy -- and it therefore determines that the NT doesn't pass muster
I think the key here is that Jesus has established a new covenant, whereas the Law (as beautiful as it is) belonged to the Mosaic covenant. Even Jeremiah suggests this when he talks about a law not written on tablets of stone but on hearts of men. That the Law is, for the most part, contingent in salvific history, seems clear when we consider that the patriarchs did not possess the Law but were still part of the covenant people. Why then should the Law not be fulfilled in the Messiah?
  1. The New Testament quotes prophecy out of context (i.e. Hosea 11:1, which is about Israel, not the messiah), misquotes prophecy (i.e. Isaiah 7:14 which is rightly translated young maiden, not virgin), and even makes up prophecy out of whole cloth (such as Matthew 2:23, He shall be called a Nazarene aka someone from the city of Nazareth.)
Matthew doesn't use prophecy as future prediction but as typological fulfilment. You're absolutely right: when he quotes Hosea it originally applies to Israel but Jesus is seen as recapitulating Israel in himself (the genealogy, coming out of Egypt, forty days in the wilderness, etc.). As for Isa 7:14, Matthew is using the LXX, which has "virgin", not "young maiden".

I think this is one key area where Christians, as well as Jews and Muslims, take too simplistic approach to understanding how prophetic and other texts are used by NT writers, as if they were idiots, got things wrong and didn't know what they were doing.
  1. Jesus cannot be the Messiah because he simply did not fulfill messianic prophecy. It makes no sense to say, "He will fulfill the rest when he comes back again." After all, anyone can claim to be the messiah and say they will fulfill the prophecies the next time around. The only way we have of determining the messiah is if they fulfill the messianic claims, all of them, and quite frankly Jesus did not; thus he failed in his attempt to be the messiah. Here are just three examples:
    • The Messiah will usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. Jesus did not.​
    • The Messiah will rule from Jerusalem. Jesus did not.​
    • The Messiah will bring ALL Jews back to the Land of Israel. Jesus did not.​
Yes, this is definitely a key point. These concerns are actually picked up in the Gospels but applied, again, typologically, and are in fact rachetted-up! It's similar to the way that God, in Genesis, says Adam will surely die the day he eats the fruit (though he didn't die physically but did spiritually).
- The Messiah will usher in an era of world peace between nations: Jesus brings peace through forgiveness of sins, not earthly peace, but spiritual peace through reconciliation and restoration of the family of God. "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you." (John 14:27)
- The Messiah will rule from Jerusalem: Jesus was actually enthroned as king in Jerusalem! "And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came forward to him, and said to him, "Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you." And he said to them, "What do you want me to do for you?" And they said to him, "Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory."... "[T]o sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared."... [When Jesus is crucified.] And the inscription of the charge against him read, "The King of the Jews." And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left. (Mark 10:35-37, 40; 15:26-27) Jesus now also rules from the heavenly Jerusalem, as Paul says in Philippians 2: "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth..."
- The Messiah will bring all Jews back to the land of Israel: Jesus ingathered both the tribes of Israel and the nations - he gathered the tribes through his Twelve Apostles and ministry. For instance, after feeding the five thousand, Mark tells us: "And they took up twelve baskets full of broken pieces and of the fish." (Mark 6:43) Furthermore, Jesus tells his apostles that they will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matt 19:28); and we also see the twelve tribes gathered together in Revelation (chapter 7).

Some other suggestions for why Jews might not feel so persuaded to convert to Christianity include: the cultural strength and family bonds of traditional Jewish families (and the fear of losing this if one converted); the disgraceful ways Jews have been treated by their Christian neighbours at times throughout history; the similarity between the two religions (Judaism serves as a kind of inoculation to Christianity); and the fact that Christianity is a "younger" religion (older-brother syndrome).
 
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