Salvation is God manifest
Salvation is God manifest in you and either He is or He is not. It isnt someting you can just jump in and out of. The kingdom of God doesnt come with observation it is within you. Luke 17:20-21
Why OSAS Is True
- Thread starter Hark
- Start date
From God's perspective OSAS is true. (Psalm 37:28)
From man's perspective it can be confusing for some. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like genuine Christians for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy telling them apart.
From man's perspective it can be confusing for some. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like genuine Christians for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy telling them apart.
1Thess521
Well-known member
that is what I am checking
I see the soil that received the seed in giving growth as saved believers whereby only the good soil bore fruit for being His disciples by looking to Him as their Good Shepherd for help to abide in His words. John 15:1-8 His disciples expects to be pruned by Him to bear more fruit.
Those that stopped being pruned by Him when He has shown iniquity by His words, are at risk of being cut off. That does not mean they are unsaved, but simply disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven when it is to be held in fellowship in sincerity & in truth & peace.
Those unrepentant saints & former believers left behind will get all that is defiling the temple of God including unforgiveness towards the brethren, burned off of that foundation incurring physical death but their spirits are still saved 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, so when they are resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, they can be received into that one fold & one shepherd by hearing & following the voice of their King of kings in serving Him on earth John 10:1-5,&16 as the least in the kingdom of Heaven Matthew 5:19 as they are the vessels of wood & earth unless they repent, even former believers, by the time the Bridegroom comes 2 Timothy 2:18-21 . This is why OSAS is true.
Discipleship or running that race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith is not to obtain salvation, but the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House for why former believers are still to be called to repent with His help so they too can obtain that eternal glory before the Bridegroom comes. 2 Timothy 2:10-13 .
Paul was referring to his abiding in Him as being ready to depart should the Bridegroom comes at the pre great tribulation rapture event. This has nothing to do with obtaining salvation, but to receive that crown by Him as that crown is His crowning achievement on him for abiding in Him.
2 Timothy 4:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
The truth here is.. those left behind saints and even former believers are still saved but disqualified to attend the Marriage supper in Heaven thus excommunicated. They will be resurrected after the great tribulation. This is where the least in the kingdom of heaven comes from and where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Explain how the least can still be in His kingdom of heaven by breaking the least commandment and teaching others to unless OSAS is true?
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Explain how the vessels unto dishonor that are in His House are the ones that did not depart from iniquity unless OSAS is true?
2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Explain how He can still abide in former believers unless OSAS is true?
That foundation is not going anywhere and neither will that seal of adoption, but He will judge what is on that foundation in that day verse 13.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
So those left behind saints will die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation.
Manfred
Well-known member
Sorry but no.
Do you believe all people regardless of their faith will ultimately be saved?
I believe He still abides in former believers for why they are still called to depart from iniquity to avoid being left behind in becoming cursed as vessels unto dishonor in His House but still in His House as the least in the kingdom of heaven in serving the King of kings on earth after the great tribulation when they shall be resurrected and not being of the firstfruits at the rapture event which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in being that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper above.. That is the point of correcting those astray.
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Our confidence is that He Who began a good work in us in how we look to Him to get us ready and willing to go, our confidence is in Him to finish that same work in those saints that did not look to Him to get them ready & willing to go to be received by Him later on for they are His.
Manfred
Well-known member
Not what I want to know.
Do you believe all people are saved.
As opposed to do you believe only those with faith now, are saved
The question was answered by addressing those who are former believers as still saved.
So every one that believes in Jesus Christ are saved since they first came to and believed in Him at the calling of the gospel.
Is every saved believer ready to go when the Bridegroom comes? Sadly, no, because Jesus had said so by His warnings for believers to be ready or else. Those left behind as denied by Him are still saved. Shocker, but true in according to His words for how He abides in former believers that deny Him verbally as left behind.
Manfred
Well-known member
OK. So unbelievers are never saved.
Your argument is that believers become unbelievers who have to be reminded that they are in fact believers?
Right.
No. Former believers are not the same as unbelievers because unbelievers had never believed in Him to be saved.
It is because former believers had been saved, they are still called to repent from whatever lies or sins that they have turned away from abiding in Jesus for. They may stop abiding in Him, and even deny Him, but He is faithful because He abides still.
When they repent, they do not need to be saved again because they are saved. They just needed His help to see the lies and the self destructive sins and the consequences of being left behind so they can ask Him for help to repent & be ready as found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes.
Manfred
Well-known member
And you think somehow God cannot accomplish this by the indwelling Spirit but has to wait until after death?
Look at it this way; churches are not excommunicating unrepentant saints today. So how is it that you think every saved believer will be ready when He comes? What the churches fail to do, Jesus Christ will do for the Marriage Supper.
1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
That is the same thing as leaving unrepentant saints behind to be killed with death by Satan in his war on the saints during the great tribulation.
He warned the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25 to repent or else be cast into the bed or the coming of the great tribulation.
The flip side of the coin for this excommunication is to eat in sincerity & in truth at the Marriage Supper which is the requirement for fellowship.
1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
So if the church are looking the other way, Jesus Christ will not.
If the believer thinks he is getting away with living in sin, wanting to live "life" with their reconciled relationship with Jesus Christ on the back burner, it is no wonder why not very many believers will be ready when He comes.
So that is why He led Paul to warn individual believers about what they build on that foundation because each run the risk of destroying the physical body that they had defiled in that day of fire when He judges His House first, even though the spirit is still saved. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17
Not every one that believes in Him will trust Him as their Good Shepherd to help them to follow Him personally by looking to Him to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily so that we may be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House. That is why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House to testify to the power of God in salvation that believe even in His name thus fr why OSAS is true.
Manfred
Well-known member
Churches have no power.
There is but one church, and every member of that church are redeemed by the righteousness of Christ and not self-righteous.
The idea that you keep yourself righteous is unbiblical.
Are you indwelt by the Holy Spirit, then your lamp is full.
And. Saved nevertheless.
No. That is inference.
And? Do you think they did? Who convicted them to repentance?
Your understanding of church is lacking.
Why would the Spirit stop convicting and leading us all into repentance. What desire is placed into the heart of a believer.
Do you have special knowledge?
Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.... 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus....... 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
The Word of God is the Head over each believer and it is to Him we look to in helping us be submissive to the Word of God.
By correcting others according to the scripture is how you wake up the erring brother to be turn to Him for help to be submissive to Him.
Our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ) and so that seal of adoption is not going anywhere when we grieve the Holy Spirit ( Ephesians 4:30 ), but we can defile out temples by what we build on that foundation and so we need His help to lay aside every weight & sin daily in running that race per Hebrews 12:1-2.
Yet suffering the destruction of the flesh nevertheless. OSAS is true but the warnings given by Jesus are there for the believers for a reason.
Cannot be inference when the church at Thyatira was warned to repent or else be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation which you acknowledge that warning below and yet....
Jesus, even those who got cast into the bed of the great tribulation when Satan will wage the war on the saints to kill them with death too and not just that fiery calamity that will befall one third of the earth per Revelation 8:7 before the great tribulation comes.
Scripture supports what I say whereas you are not showing any scripture to support what you say. Don't you usually correct by scripture?
Jesus would not bother to warn of the consequence for saved believers otherwise. Even Paul acknowledge that he could become a castaway too and not just lose the rewards of crowns.
1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
No more than what you can have when you discern with Him at that throne of grace.
1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.... 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
No harm in asking Him for help in case you are missing something that He wants you to know so you can be pruned and bear more fruit as His disciples so that your joy may be full. There is a risk for not asking Him about this since refusing to be reproved by scripture is a risk.
John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
GeneZ
Well-known member
It says, Jesus 'bought" us with His blood.
He is not renting us.
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,
If Jesus lost just one of us?
It would not be us that denied and failed to do the Father's will. It would be the Son of God who failed to do the Father's will! To say we can lose our salvation? Is a double blasphemy!
grace and peace........
He is not renting us.
"Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.
Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood." Acts 20:28
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,
but raise them up at the last day." John 6:39
If Jesus lost just one of us?
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,
but raise them up at the last day." John 6:39
grace and peace........
Salvation is God manifest in you. WHo is God? Simply Love and He is not in you or He is no different from Jesus, Abraham, Moses 120 or anyone else including self.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Gary.... you're saying weird things again.
God is Divine Love. Dogs love their masters.
Love is divine, God is Love. God is a SPirit and that Spirit is Love and man is the temple of Him. The kingdom of God doesnt come with observation it is within you Luke 17:20-21.
Why would you say to be like Him and perfect as He is perfect as He demands of us is weird? it really is a simple concept and either you have the Love of God Spirit, as your own disposition and in His same image which is Love or you do not. When Jesus prayed for you to be in the Father as he was on in the Father in John 17, who do you think he was comparing to to have in you?
Most who are of some denomination or a belief system never has heard the what to the Father for salvation as Jesus leads us to, they are to busy dictating to Him their own rules to regulate their gods. instead of being like Him as He sent Jesus to show us the way to Him themselves
GeneZ
Well-known member
Gary you do what you say you don't do....