Why presuppositional apologetics doesn't prove our religion

Unionist

New member
So here is the problem with presup.

Presup attempts to show that our God, the Christian God is the only God that can account for the preconditions of intelligibility therefore Christianity is true.

There are two problems with this method claim.

PROBLEM 1:

The very old testament saints, Noah, Abraham, etc couldn't have believed that the incarnated Christ was born in there day, so believing that "Jesus the carpenter has died on the cross in the past" cannot be essential to believing in the Christian God, otherwise Noah doesn't believe in our God.

However it is obvious that believing in Christianity requires you believe Jesus has come.

Thus it seems belief in our God does not require belief in the past resurrection of the messiah, it may be a requirement AFTER THE CHRIST ROSE but not for all people of all times.

PROBLEM 2:

The problem is its possible to refer to our God successfully but ascribing a false history to him.

Duet 18: 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not happen or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you are not to be afraid of him.

Above we see that you can successfully craft sentences where God tells you things he never did.

Likewise the Samaritans, who have a gerrymandered version of the torah, are said explicitly to fear the lord in the following verse:

2nd kings 17 41 So while these nations feared the LORD, they also served their idols; their children likewise and their grandchildren, as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

The above shows that these men believed in the lord, but the ignored his commandments. We see this is true in Zephaniah as well see below:

5“And those who bow down on the housetops to the host of heaven,
And those who bow down and swear to the LORD and yet swear by Milcom



So it seems therefore that even if you prove the Christian God exists you have still failed to prove Christianity which requires the belief that Jesus has risen as Christ.
 

Gary Mac

Member
So here is the problem with presup.

Presup attempts to show that our God, the Christian God is the only God that can account for the preconditions of intelligibility therefore Christianity is true.

There are two problems with this method claim.

PROBLEM 1:

The very old testament saints, Noah, Abraham, etc couldn't have believed that the incarnated Christ was born in there day, so believing that "Jesus the carpenter has died on the cross in the past" cannot be essential to believing in the Christian God, otherwise Noah doesn't believe in our God.

However it is obvious that believing in Christianity requires you believe Jesus has come.

Thus it seems belief in our God does not require belief in the past resurrection of the messiah, it may be a requirement AFTER THE CHRIST ROSE but not for all people of all times.

PROBLEM 2:

The problem is its possible to refer to our God successfully but ascribing a false history to him.

Duet 18: 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not happen or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you are not to be afraid of him.

Above we see that you can successfully craft sentences where God tells you things he never did.

Likewise the Samaritans, who have a gerrymandered version of the torah, are said explicitly to fear the lord in the following verse:

2nd kings 17 41 So while these nations feared the LORD, they also served their idols; their children likewise and their grandchildren, as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

The above shows that these men believed in the lord, but the ignored his commandments. We see this is true in Zephaniah as well see below:

5“And those who bow down on the housetops to the host of heaven,
And those who bow down and swear to the LORD and yet swear by Milcom



So it seems therefore that even if you prove the Christian God exists you have still failed to prove Christianity which requires the belief that Jesus has risen as Christ.
Christ is not a person, Christ is the dispoosition of the person who is anointed of Love. The God prayed to and obeyed was Spirit and that Spirit is Love. The very same God starting in Adam when he became like Him right down to today and Love never changes is the same yesterday as today and will be the same tomorrow.

What religious folk cant see nor understand is that Jesus didnt even know this God of Love until Love was manifest in him at about the age of 30, see Matt 3:16. But it is the same God from the beginning.
 

civic

Active member
Well the real issue is that Paul testifies that the gospel message is centered in the bodily Resurrection of Jesus as per 1 Corinthians 15 and other places in the N.T. His appearances are the evidence Paul uses to make His case in the first 8 opening verses in that chapter. Here are those facts he presents in order and he even leaves out the appearances to the women.

1- and that he appeared to Cephas,
2- and then to the Twelve.
3- After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
4- Then he appeared to James,
5-then to all the apostles,
6-and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

a-So we know the tomb was empty.
b-Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have
c- He showed them His hands, feet and side which still retained His Crucifixion marks
d- the above proves it was the same body in the tomb that was raised back to life
e- scripture says His body did not undergo decay
f- His resurrected body was changed to become immortal, incorruptible and imperishable. A Glorified Spiritual body of flesh and bones

So having the above truth and facts regarding Jesus Resurrection we can eliminate all the theories which deny it.

1- What person knowing the Resurrection of Jesus was a lie would suffer torture and death ?
2- We have 3 separate groups of people gathered together at different times as eyewitness account of Jesus Resurrection
3- Knowing the Resurrection was true is the only explanation for being willing to suffer and die for Christ
4- Last but not least is the fact that these men and women’s lives were drastically changes forever by the power of Jesus Resurrection. Their lives were transformed from denying Christ to be willing to suffer and die for Him as Jesus had promised them would happen.



hope this helps!!!
 

Gary Mac

Member
So here is the problem with presup.

Presup attempts to show that our God, the Christian God is the only God that can account for the preconditions of intelligibility therefore Christianity is true.

There are two problems with this method claim.

PROBLEM 1:

The very old testament saints, Noah, Abraham, etc couldn't have believed that the incarnated Christ was born in there day, so believing that "Jesus the carpenter has died on the cross in the past" cannot be essential to believing in the Christian God, otherwise Noah doesn't believe in our God.

However it is obvious that believing in Christianity requires you believe Jesus has come.

Thus it seems belief in our God does not require belief in the past resurrection of the messiah, it may be a requirement AFTER THE CHRIST ROSE but not for all people of all times.

PROBLEM 2:

The problem is its possible to refer to our God successfully but ascribing a false history to him.

Duet 18: 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not happen or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you are not to be afraid of him.

Above we see that you can successfully craft sentences where God tells you things he never did.

Likewise the Samaritans, who have a gerrymandered version of the torah, are said explicitly to fear the lord in the following verse:

2nd kings 17 41 So while these nations feared the LORD, they also served their idols; their children likewise and their grandchildren, as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

The above shows that these men believed in the lord, but the ignored his commandments. We see this is true in Zephaniah as well see below:

5“And those who bow down on the housetops to the host of heaven,
And those who bow down and swear to the LORD and yet swear by Milcom



So it seems therefore that even if you prove the Christian God exists you have still failed to prove Christianity which requires the belief that Jesus has risen as Christ.
Love is not a religion, Love is the disposition of mind. The God of heaven is Love and man is the temple of, the place Love resides. There is only one. Religions are regulated by the laws those has established to govern a belief system. Love is not a belief and either one lives it or one doesnt.
 

Gary Mac

Member
Well the real issue is that Paul testifies that the gospel message is centered in the bodily Resurrection of Jesus as per 1 Corinthians 15 and other places in the N.T. His appearances are the evidence Paul uses to make His case in the first 8 opening verses in that chapter. Here are those facts he presents in order and he even leaves out the appearances to the women.

1- and that he appeared to Cephas,
2- and then to the Twelve.
3- After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
4- Then he appeared to James,
5-then to all the apostles,
6-and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

a-So we know the tomb was empty.
b-Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have
c- He showed them His hands, feet and side which still retained His Crucifixion marks
d- the above proves it was the same body in the tomb that was raised back to life
e- scripture says His body did not undergo decay
f- His resurrected body was changed to become immortal, incorruptible and imperishable. A Glorified Spiritual body of flesh and bones

So having the above truth and facts regarding Jesus Resurrection we can eliminate all the theories which deny it.

1- What person knowing the Resurrection of Jesus was a lie would suffer torture and death ?
2- We have 3 separate groups of people gathered together at different times as eyewitness account of Jesus Resurrection
3- Knowing the Resurrection was true is the only explanation for being willing to suffer and die for Christ
4- Last but not least is the fact that these men and women’s lives were drastically changes forever by the power of Jesus Resurrection. Their lives were transformed from denying Christ to be willing to suffer and die for Him as Jesus had promised them would happen.



hope this helps!!!
Jesus testifies that the kingdom fo God does not come with observation but is withn you. And to be one in the Father with He in you and you in GHim as one as Jesus was one in Him, perfect even as your Father inehaven is perfect.

It is better for me to follow what Jesus said I am than it is to follow the laws Paul manufactured to regulate his beliefs. .
 

Redeemed

Active member
I'm more of an evidential apologists and strongly disagree with the presuppositionalist approach.

The problem I see with presuppositionalism is that it can easily be turned against itself. Say I presuppose God exists, and I ask you to presuppose that too, what’s to keep you from saying, “Well I presuppose that God does not exist, and I think you should presuppose that also. In fact, I think Christianity is a man-made religion and the Bible is a mythical book. Why should I—or, for that matter, you—presuppose differently?”

And if I was a presuppositionalist, I could give no reason against accepting your position. You see, simply because you or I claim something is true doesn’t make it so. Presuppositions don’t justify or authenticate themselves anymore than you can lift yourself into the air without outside help.

Presuppositions need outside help too and that must come in the form of supporting evidence—reasons to accept them as true. Without such help, we have no way to determine which presuppositions are correct.

The real deal is because apologetics is directed to unbelievers, it must start where they are. Unbelievers reject Christianity for any number of reasons, but presuppositional apologetics demands they accept the truth of the Bible before communication can begin. Evidential apologetics, on the other hand, meets non-Christians where they are and seeks to meet their challenges to Christianity.

For a lot of good info on apologetics see: Defending Your Faith: Reliable Answers for a New Generation of Seekers and Skeptics by Dan story.
 

Gary Mac

Member
I'm more of an evidential apologists and strongly disagree with the presuppositionalist approach.

The problem I see with presuppositionalism is that it can easily be turned against itself. Say I presuppose God exists, and I ask you to presuppose that too, what’s to keep you from saying, “Well I presuppose that God does not exist, and I think you should presuppose that also. In fact, I think Christianity is a man-made religion and the Bible is a mythical book. Why should I—or, for that matter, you—presuppose differently?”

And if I was a presuppositionalist, I could give no reason against accepting your position. You see, simply because you or I claim something is true doesn’t make it so. Presuppositions don’t justify or authenticate themselves anymore than you can lift yourself into the air without outside help.

Presuppositions need outside help too and that must come in the form of supporting evidence—reasons to accept them as true. Without such help, we have no way to determine which presuppositions are correct.

The real deal is because apologetics is directed to unbelievers, it must start where they are. Unbelievers reject Christianity for any number of reasons, but presuppositional apologetics demands they accept the truth of the Bible before communication can begin. Evidential apologetics, on the other hand, meets non-Christians where they are and seeks to meet their challenges to Christianity.

For a lot of good info on apologetics see: Defending Your Faith: Reliable Answers for a New Generation of Seekers and Skeptics by Dan story.
Rational thought is contrary to the thoughs of God that is irational. It isnt hUman nature to think in terms of Love who God is but is a process that involves man setting aside his natural mind and puting on one that is foriegn to understansing.

Most claiming to be Christian are actually claiming to adhere to the creed of the religious laws created to regulate a belief. Most have no intent for being perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect to have His same mind, same walk as He waks in His same light. In fact they will tell you it is blaspheme to say that you have the same from God Jesus had from God where all of heaven was opend to that man as it is to all who recieves the same from God. Matt 3:16. Not very many actually follow Jesus instructions to the Father do they?
 

Redeemed

Active member
Rational thought is contrary to the thoughs of God that is irational. It isnt hUman nature to think in terms of Love who God is but is a process that involves man setting aside his natural mind and puting on one that is foriegn to understansing.

Most claiming to be Christian are actually claiming to adhere to the creed of the religious laws created to regulate a belief. Most have no intent for being perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect to have His same mind, same walk as He waks in His same light. In fact they will tell you it is blaspheme to say that you have the same from God Jesus had from God where all of heaven was opend to that man as it is to all who recieves the same from God. Matt 3:16. Not very many actually follow Jesus instructions to the Father do they?
I'll go with one:

AS FOR myself, brethren, when I came to you, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony and evidence or mystery and secret of God [concerning what He has done through Christ for the salvation of men] in lofty words of eloquence or human philosophy and wisdom;
2 For I resolved to know nothing (to be acquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing) among you except Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and Him crucified.
3 And I was in (passed into a state of) weakness and fear (dread) and great trembling [after I had come] among you.
4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],
5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.
6 Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding), we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden); but it is indeed not a wisdom of this present age or of this world nor of the leaders and rulers of this age, who are being brought to nothing and are doomed to pass away.

7 But rather what we are setting forth is a wisdom of God once hidden [from the human understanding] and now revealed to us by God—[that wisdom] which God devised and decreed before the ages for our glorification [to lift us into the glory of His presence].
8 None of the rulers of this age or world perceived and recognized and understood this, for if they had, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But, on the contrary, as the Scripture says, What eye has not seen and ear has not heard and has not entered into the heart of man, [all that] God has prepared (made and keeps ready) for those who love Him [who hold Him in affectionate reverence, promptly obeying Him and gratefully recognizing the benefits He has bestowed]. [Isa. 64:4; 65:17.]
10 Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the [Holy] Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God [the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man’s scrutiny].
11 For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man’s thoughts except the man’s own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.
13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].
14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].
16 For who has known or understood the mind (the counsels and purposes) of the Lord so as to guide and instruct Him and give Him knowledge? But we have the mind of Christ (the Messiah) and do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart. [Isa. 40:13.]
Yup that would be from Paul in:1 Corinthians 2:1–16
 

Gary Mac

Member
I'll go with one:

AS FOR myself, brethren, when I came to you, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony and evidence or mystery and secret of God [concerning what He has done through Christ for the salvation of men] in lofty words of eloquence or human philosophy and wisdom;
2 For I resolved to know nothing (to be acquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing) among you except Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and Him crucified.
3 And I was in (passed into a state of) weakness and fear (dread) and great trembling [after I had come] among you.
4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],
5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.
6 Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding), we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden); but it is indeed not a wisdom of this present age or of this world nor of the leaders and rulers of this age, who are being brought to nothing and are doomed to pass away.

7 But rather what we are setting forth is a wisdom of God once hidden [from the human understanding] and now revealed to us by God—[that wisdom] which God devised and decreed before the ages for our glorification [to lift us into the glory of His presence].
8 None of the rulers of this age or world perceived and recognized and understood this, for if they had, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But, on the contrary, as the Scripture says, What eye has not seen and ear has not heard and has not entered into the heart of man, [all that] God has prepared (made and keeps ready) for those who love Him [who hold Him in affectionate reverence, promptly obeying Him and gratefully recognizing the benefits He has bestowed]. [Isa. 64:4; 65:17.]
10 Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the [Holy] Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God [the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man’s scrutiny].
11 For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man’s thoughts except the man’s own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.
13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].
14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].
16 For who has known or understood the mind (the counsels and purposes) of the Lord so as to guide and instruct Him and give Him knowledge? But we have the mind of Christ (the Messiah) and do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart. [Isa. 40:13.]
Yup that would be from Paul in:1 Corinthians 2:1–16
I dont follow the teachings of Paul, I follow the teachings of Jesus.
 

Redeemed

Active member
I dont follow the teachings of Paul, I follow the teachings of Jesus.
And why is that Gary? What he is saying in 1 Corinthians 2:1–16 sounds some what like the stuff you post. Didn't you have a "on the road to Damascus" experience? I remember you telling me about something like that some accident you were in or something.

So when you say you don't follow the teachings of Paul are you saying you don't believe the majority of the New Testament which Paul wrote?
It seems to me if you say you follow the teachings of Jesus you and Paul should get along just fine. I'm not trying to give you a hard time Gary just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Quite frankly Gary you post here quite a bit and seemed to be saying the same thing over and over but what you say just doesn't seem to make any sense. I realize were all getting older and it is harder for us to communicate but I want you to know no matter what you say or believe that I love you and wish the best for you and yours.
 

Redeemed

Active member
I dont follow the teachings of Paul, I follow the teachings of Jesus.

Paul teaches that in Christ we are sons of God (Galatians 3:26-27). That God is no longer our Judge, who through the law has condemned and imprisoned us. God is no longer our Tutor, who through the law restrains and chastises us. God is now our Father, who in Christ has accepted and forgiven us.

We no longer fear Him, dreading the punishment we deserve; we love Him, with a deep devotion. We are not prisoners (under The Law), waiting to hear our sentence, no longer school kids, under the restraint of a tutor (The Law), but sons of God and heirs of His glorious kingdom, enjoying the status and privileges of grown-up sons.

This sonship of God is ‘in Christ’; it is not in ourselves. I think here is were you go off the rails Gary. The doctrine of God as a universal Father was not taught by Christ nor by His apostles. God is indeed the universal Creator, having brought all things into existence, and the universal King, ruling and sustaining all that He has made.

But He is the Father only of our Lord Jesus Christ and of those whom He adopts into His family through Christ. If we would be the sons of God, then we must be ‘in Christ Jesus … through faith’ (Galatians 3:26), which is a better way to put it than ‘by faith in Christ Jesus’. It is through faith that we are in Christ, and through being in Christ that we are sons of God.​
 

Gary Mac

Member
And why is that Gary? What he is saying in 1 Corinthians 2:1–16 sounds some what like the stuff you post.
Paul got a few things right that sounded like Jesus but for the most part Paul made his own rules for his beliefs.
Didn't you have a "on the road to Damascus" experience? I remember you telling me about something like that some accident you were in or something.
Actually like Jesus had in Matt 3:16.
So when you say you don't follow the teachings of Paul are you saying you don't believe the majority of the New Testament which Paul wrote?
I follow what was quoted of Jesus and what he said of himself and his God he called Father and what I would be if I hade the same from Him as he had from Him.
and what I should be It seems to me if you say you follow the teachings of Jesus you and Paul should get along just fine. I'm not trying to give you a hard time Gary just trying to understand where you're coming from.
I understand, and you are not giving me a hard time at all, I understand whay you post what you do about Paul.

I look at Jesus, did he need Paul to lead him to the Father or did Jesus get his information from God? Jesus said that in that day I will ask him noting but go to the Father for myself and He will give it me. I did and He did. And when I compare that what God gives me with what jesus said go dgave him in comparriosn, if it deviates one bit from that what Jesus confessed of himself, then I have gotten off track. Train wreks happen when they get off track.

I do not need Pasul. Paul is not the way he is not the truth and he is not the life that I live, Christ is, Gods anointing. Same Spirit in me who was in Christ Jesus.

I cannot speak for Paul all I can do is compare what he says of his beliefs with that wjhat Jesus said in his. And there is some discrempancies feom Paul and Jesus. Things such as Paul teaches that you are a sinner, Jesus teaches in Christ, Gods nointing, to be Gods righteous you are not the sinner but the saint.

I do not agree with Paul about women keep silent, Jesus never made that rule, me cut your hair, women dont cut your hair, Paul said his desire to be recognized for his abundance of revelation was a thiorn in his flesh. Otherwis his name on the marque. jesus was quoite the opposit, he would do a certain thing and say go and tell no one and dissapear through the crowd undetected. Paul needed that recognitin Jesus didnt. Nor does anyone else who has from God that what jesus had from Him.


Quite frankly Gary you post here quite a bit and seemed to be saying the same thing over and over but what you say just doesn't seem to make any sense.
Understood. Over and over Jesus pointed to the same thing, be as I am, have the same from God he had. And over and over you will hear the same form me, go to God yourself just as Jesus commanded of us. over and over. Look at those who had Jesus crucified, did he not make any sense tp these? Why?

I realize were all getting older and it is harder for us to communicate but I want you to know no matter what you say or believe that I love you and wish the best for you and yours.
Thank you' and the only reason that I come here and post that what Jesus said we should be over and over is from a heart that does love all. No different one from the other for all are the same in Love. Sure we all have different personalities but the common denominator from the Father is Love. SOme has His same dispposition and some are of religious beliefs to regulate a belief. Love is the only perfect thing and either one is perfect evemn as your Father of Love is perfect or one isnt. That doesnt mean I am bias to one over the other, it means I love all the same.
 

Gary Mac

Member
Paul teaches that in Christ we are sons of God (Galatians 3:26-27). That God is no longer our Judge, who through the law has condemned and imprisoned us. God is no longer our Tutor, who through the law restrains and chastises us. God is now our Father, who in Christ has accepted and forgiven us.​
We in Christ are not of the laws of Paul we are of the laws of Christ as in the law to have His same mind, the law of be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect, walk as He walks in His same light, H ein you and you inHim as one as Jesus was one in Him, same SPirit, same everything God is as our own just as Jesus was of Him.

These laws are not someting we try and be, it is who we are. And the idea that God is no longer our tutor is totally antichrist.

We no longer fear Him, dreading the punishment we deserve; we love Him, with a deep devotion. We are not prisoners (under The Law), waiting to hear our sentence, no longer school kids, under the restraint of a tutor (The Law), but sons of God and heirs of His glorious kingdom, enjoying the status and privileges of grown-up sons.​
Agreed described above.

This sonship of God is ‘in Christ’; it is not in ourselves.​
It is totaly in ourselves. the kingdom fo God doesnt come with observation it is within you. See Jesus in Luke 17:20-21
I think here is were you go off the rails Gary.​
Understood, one cant relate at all if you are not His kingdom, His temple, the place God resides. .
The doctrine of God as a universal Father was not taught by Christ nor by His apostles. God is indeed the universal Creator, having brought all things into existence, and the universal King, ruling and sustaining all that He has made.​
God is a SPirit and that SPirit is Love and man is the temple of. A very simple concept that man in his beliefs has complicated into their own images and ides.

But He is the Father only of our Lord Jesus Christ and of those whom He adopts into His family through Christ.​
Anoter law Paul came up with. I am not adopted I am born of God by the same Spirit jesus was born of. Christ means Gods anointed, and either you are anointed of God, Christ in you, or you are not an look upon Christ as a seperat man from yourself instead of being that person of Christ who is anointed of God as He demands of us if we are to be His own child.

Adoption is of the law, Born His child is not of the law but of the blood line of. Adoption is of another blood line.
If we would be the sons of God, then we must be ‘in Christ Jesus … through faith’​
If you arfe God saon you are born of Him just as Jesus was born of Him and anointed of Him which is Christ in you. Christ is not a person, Christ is the disposition fo the person who is anointed of God. As far as faith wer are to have the same kind of faith Jesus had.
(Galatians 3:26), which is a better way to put it than ‘by faith in Christ Jesus’. It is through faith that we are in Christ, and through being in Christ that we are sons of God.​
It is by having the same faith as Jesus had from our Father. that His faith is at work in me just as it was at work in him. And it is by having His faith that we are sons of God. this is exactly why I follow Jesus in what he said we will be instead of Paul who gave his own opinions about it. Can you really not see these differences?
 

e v e

Active member
So here is the problem with presup.

Presup attempts to show that our God, the Christian God is the only God that can account for the preconditions of intelligibility therefore Christianity is true.

There are two problems with this method claim.

PROBLEM 1:

The very old testament saints, Noah, Abraham, etc couldn't have believed that the incarnated Christ was born in there day, so believing that "Jesus the carpenter has died on the cross in the past" cannot be essential to believing in the Christian God, otherwise Noah doesn't believe in our God.

However it is obvious that believing in Christianity requires you believe Jesus has come.

Thus it seems belief in our God does not require belief in the past resurrection of the messiah, it may be a requirement AFTER THE CHRIST ROSE but not for all people of all times.

PROBLEM 2:

The problem is its possible to refer to our God successfully but ascribing a false history to him.

Duet 18: 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, and the thing does not happen or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you are not to be afraid of him.

Above we see that you can successfully craft sentences where God tells you things he never did.

Likewise the Samaritans, who have a gerrymandered version of the torah, are said explicitly to fear the lord in the following verse:

2nd kings 17 41 So while these nations feared the LORD, they also served their idols; their children likewise and their grandchildren, as their fathers did, so they do to this day.

The above shows that these men believed in the lord, but the ignored his commandments. We see this is true in Zephaniah as well see below:

5“And those who bow down on the housetops to the host of heaven,
And those who bow down and swear to the LORD and yet swear by Milcom



So it seems therefore that even if you prove the Christian God exists you have still failed to prove Christianity which requires the belief that Jesus has risen as Christ.
90% of the OT prophets is God telling us about the other world and about now, the far future.
 

Redeemed

Active member
We in Christ are not of the laws of Paul we are of the laws of Christ as in the law to have His same mind, the law of be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect, walk as He walks in His same light, H ein you and you inHim as one as Jesus was one in Him, same SPirit, same everything God is as our own just as Jesus was of Him.

These laws are not someting we try and be, it is who we are. And the idea that God is no longer our tutor is totally antichrist.

Agreed described above.

It is totaly in ourselves. the kingdom fo God doesnt come with observation it is within you. See Jesus in Luke 17:20-21

Understood, one cant relate at all if you are not His kingdom, His temple, the place God resides. .

God is a SPirit and that SPirit is Love and man is the temple of. A very simple concept that man in his beliefs has complicated into their own images and ides.

Anoter law Paul came up with. I am not adopted I am born of God by the same Spirit jesus was born of. Christ means Gods anointed, and either you are anointed of God, Christ in you, or you are not an look upon Christ as a seperat man from yourself instead of being that person of Christ who is anointed of God as He demands of us if we are to be His own child.

Adoption is of the law, Born His child is not of the law but of the blood line of. Adoption is of another blood line.

If you arfe God saon you are born of Him just as Jesus was born of Him and anointed of Him which is Christ in you. Christ is not a person, Christ is the disposition fo the person who is anointed of God. As far as faith wer are to have the same kind of faith Jesus had.

It is by having the same faith as Jesus had from our Father. that His faith is at work in me just as it was at work in him. And it is by having His faith that we are sons of God. this is exactly why I follow Jesus in what he said we will be instead of Paul who gave his own opinions about it. Can you really not see these differences?
Ok Gary thanks for taking the time to explain your trip to me. I still think your way out there but your ok in my book. As for Paul... he wrote Romans chapter (best chapter in the bible) 8 and I love what he teaches about Jesus. Tell you what in Heaven you and I can look him and have a talk with him. See you there!
 
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