Why the Anomaly?

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Janice Bower said:

Mormons are required to earn each blessing:​


The first effect (of the atonement) is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus, providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins.
As these sins are the result of individual acts, it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements - obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 87

Does anyone detect an anomaly here? The LDS claim the Atonement is a free gift to all men--no obedience or faith required.

The critics here deny that--and claim faith is necessary and required.

So--who is claiming requirements?
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Does anyone detect an anomaly here? The LDS claim the Atonement is a free gift to all men--no obedience or faith required.

The critics here deny that--and claim faith is necessary and required.

So--who is claiming requirements?
“What do Latter-day Saints believe about grace? We believe that God’s grace is what ultimately saves us; yet it does not save us without our doing all that we can to live God’s commandments and follow Jesus Christ’s teachings. We do not believe salvation comes by simply confessing belief in Christ as our Savior. Faith, works, ordinances, and grace are all necessary” (Ensign, March 2013, p. 21).
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
According to Mormonism, mortality was earned by obedience in the First Estate. Without mortality, the Atonement was not available to them. In Mormonism, the Atonement doesn't guarantee eternal life. Eternal life has to be earned. Satan and his angels don't have mortal bodies and are thus denied a resurrection. Without a temple marriage (plus obedience to the laws and ordinances of Mormonism) there is no eternal life.

Joseph Fielding Smith taught:

One of these days, if I ever get to where I can speak to Mother Eve, I want to thank her for tempting Adam to partake of the fruit. He accepted the temptation, with the result that children came into this world. … If she hadn’t had that influence over Adam, and if Adam had done according to the commandment first given to him, they would still be in the Garden of Eden and we would not be here at all. We wouldn’t have come into this world. So the commentators made a great mistake when they put in the Bible … “man’s shameful fall.”

Well, that was what the Lord expected Adam to do, because that opened the door to mortality; and we came here into this mortal world to receive a training in mortality that we could not get anywhere else or in any other way. We came here into this world to partake of all the vicissitudes, to receive the lessons that we receive in mortality from or in a mortal world. And so we become subject to pain, to sickness. We are blessed for keeping the commandments of the Lord with all that He has given us, which, if we will follow and be true and faithful, will bring us back again into the presence of God our Eternal Father, as sons and daughters of God, entitled to the fulness of celestial glory.

 

Richard7

Well-known member
According to Mormonism, mortality was earned by obedience in the First Estate. Without mortality, the Atonement was not available to them. In Mormonism, the Atonement doesn't guarantee eternal life. Eternal life has to be earned. Satan and his angels don't have mortal bodies and are thus denied a resurrection. Without a temple marriage (plus obedience to the laws and ordinances of Mormonism) there is no eternal life.
Useless information that has nothing to do with the truth....also a huge clue she has no idea or understanding of its doctrine even though she claims to have been a member which I'm starting to doubt...
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
According to Mormonism, mortality was earned by obedience in the First Estate.
No. That's according to you, not Mormonism. It was a matter of choice. Would we follow God or Satan? Blessings are something we have to work for to get. We didn't have to work to obtain life. It was simply a matter of choosing one person or the other. It's like when a class is divided up to play a game of volleyball only instead of the team captain choosing his players, the players choose which team they want to be on.

I personally believe that those who chose Satan knew they didn't have a snowball's chance of obtaining salvation.
Without mortality, the Atonement was not available to them.
So?
In Mormonism, the Atonement doesn't guarantee eternal life. Eternal life has to be earned.
And again, So?
Satan and his angels don't have mortal bodies and are thus denied a resurrection.
Wow, you're on a roll. Bloviating in the negative.
Without a temple marriage (plus obedience to the laws and ordinances of Mormonism) there is no eternal life.
False. That's true of exaltation. It is not true of eternal life. You're still teaching Bowerism, not Mormonism.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
One of these days, if I ever get to where I can speak to Mother Eve, I want to thank her for tempting Adam to partake of the fruit. He accepted the temptation, with the result that children came into this world. … If she hadn’t had that influence over Adam, and if Adam had done according to the commandment first given to him, they would still be in the Garden of Eden and we would not be here at all. We wouldn’t have come into this world.
This is completely unrelated to your point, which, btw was pointless, so I guess it goes in the same vein.
Well, that was what the Lord expected Adam to do, because that opened the door to mortality; and we came here into this mortal world to receive a training in mortality that we could not get anywhere else or in any other way. We came here into this world to partake of all the vicissitudes, to receive the lessons that we receive in mortality from or in a mortal world. And so we become subject to pain, to sickness. We are blessed for keeping the commandments of the Lord with all that He has given us, which, if we will follow and be true and faithful, will bring us back again into the presence of God our Eternal Father, as sons and daughters of God, entitled to the fulness of celestial glory.
Yep. That appears to be where we are.

I'm not seeing anything in this reference that even remotely suggests that we had to do something to get here. It seems that Adam and Eve had to do something. So maybe they did the work, is that what you meant?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Useless information that has nothing to do with the truth....also a huge clue she has no idea or understanding of its doctrine even though she claims to have been a member which I'm starting to doubt...
ex-Mormons seem to forget a lot. I think it's from repeating false propaganda so much, they can't remember which way is up.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
@Richard 7
According to Mormonism, those who chose to follow Satan didn't receive mortal bodies because they didn't keep their First Estate.

Abraham 3
“Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones . . . And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; and they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever” (Abraham 3:22, 25–26).

The spirits who were faithful in the first estate earned the right to be born into this world and get mortal bodies, bodies which would become the eternal habitation of the Spirit after the resurrection. (Abra. 3:22-28.) But the rebellious, pre-existent spirits "the angels with kept not their first estate" (Jude 6), have been denied bodies and the probationary experience of this second estate of mortality.
Mormon Doctrine, p, 282
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
@Richard 7
According to Mormonism, those who chose to follow Satan didn't receive mortal bodies because they didn't keep their First Estate.
Again, So what? What has that got to do with earning mortal life?
Abraham 3
“Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones . . . And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; and they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever” (Abraham 3:22, 25–26).
More irrelevant unrelated text.
The spirits who were faithful in the first estate earned the right to be born into this world and get mortal bodies, bodies which would become the eternal habitation of the Spirit after the resurrection. (Abra. 3:22-28.) But the rebellious, pre-existent spirits "the angels with kept not their first estate" (Jude 6), have been denied bodies and the probationary experience of this second estate of mortality.
Mormon Doctrine, p, 282
That is the gospel according to McConkie. Again, that book has been refuted by church leadership. Pick another source. Of course, you can't because MRM and UTLM can't keep up either. As I already explained, you haven't earned anything by just picking the team you want to join. McConkie's wording is just bad but the results are accurate. The spirits who chose God's plan would obtain a mortal body... That wording would have been more accurate.

I'm not sure what McConkie meant by the "right to be born" as we know that billions of unborn children are never born. That would bring up the question, when is the conceived child considered born? I don't think McConkie was attempting any such discussion. His wording appears to be off-the-cuff and would satisfy most LDS readers, but provided plenty of fodder for our critics.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Does anyone detect an anomaly here? The LDS claim the Atonement is a free gift to all men--no obedience or faith required.

The critics here deny that--and claim faith is necessary and required.

So--who is claiming requirements?
D&C 19:
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Some spirits were chosen to be human leaders before they were born, because of being “noble and great.” Sounds like works, and earning their station in their second estate.

Abraham 3:22 “Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.”

"In the latter-day Gospel is restored the teaching that God is in a very literal sense the father of the spirits of men. These spirits had a premortal existence in which some were more obedient, and some progressed much farther than others, and herein is found, in a measure, the explanation for the inequalities in the natures of humankind." (Improvement Era, March 1931, No. 5)

“During the ages in which we dwelt in the pre-mortal state we not only developed our various characteristics and showed our worthiness and ability, or the lack of it, but we were also where such progress could be observed. . . . Under such conditions it was natural for our Father to discern and choose those who were most worthy and evaluate the talents of each individual.“ (Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, then of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, The Way to Perfection [1970], 50–51).

“There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Some spirits were chosen to be human leaders before they were born, because of being “noble and great.” Sounds like works, and earning their station in their second estate.

Abraham 3:22 “Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.”

"In the latter-day Gospel is restored the teaching that God is in a very literal sense the father of the spirits of men. These spirits had a premortal existence in which some were more obedient, and some progressed much farther than others, and herein is found, in a measure, the explanation for the inequalities in the natures of humankind." (Improvement Era, March 1931, No. 5)

“During the ages in which we dwelt in the pre-mortal state we not only developed our various characteristics and showed our worthiness and ability, or the lack of it, but we were also where such progress could be observed. . . . Under such conditions it was natural for our Father to discern and choose those who were most worthy and evaluate the talents of each individual.“ (Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, then of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, The Way to Perfection [1970], 50–51).

The Atonement of Jesus Christ was a free gift to all men. I'm not sure how you believe your post above changes that:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Could you explain for us why critics here insist we have to do something in order for one to receive the Atonement? The LDS believe the Atonement of Christ is free to all men. Without conditions to mankind.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
The Atonement of Jesus Christ was a free gift to all men. I'm not sure how you believe your post above changes that:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Could you explain for us why critics here insist we have to do something in order for one to receive the Atonement? The LDS believe the Atonement of Christ is free to all men. Without conditions to mankind.
I was responding to comments in this thread. Follow along.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
This is completely unrelated to your point, which, btw was pointless, so I guess it goes in the same vein.

Yep. That appears to be where we are.

I'm not seeing anything in this reference that even remotely suggests that we had to do something to get here. It seems that Adam and Eve had to do something. So maybe they did the work, is that what you meant?
Mormon leaders taught that what you did in the pre-existence determined the circumstances of your life on earth.

“This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa–if that negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, they may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. . . .If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would be cursed as to the Priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the Priesthood? If there is one drop of negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse. . . .” (Race Problems– As They Affect the Church, address given by Mark E. Peterson at BYU)

“Among the Saints [Mormons] is the most likely place for these [pre-existent] spirits to take their tabernacles, through a just and righteous parentage [white parentage]. They are sent to that people that are the most righteous of any other people upon the earth. . . . The Lord has not kept them in store for five or six thousand years past, and kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the Hottentots, the African negroes, the idolatrous Hindoos, or any other of the fallen nations of the earth. They are not kept in reserve in order to come forth to receive such a degraded parentage [African negroes] upon the earth; no, the Lord is not such a being” (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 1:63).
 

Richard7

Well-known member
ex-Mormons seem to forget a lot. I think it's from repeating false propaganda so much, they can't remember which way is up.
There source material is of course anti and we all know that misinformation is rampant and unchecked... anything goes when you kick against the P R I C K S
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The LDS claim the Atonement is a free gift to all men--no obedience or faith required?

That is correct. Unconditional. Jesus Christ absolved all men from the condemnation of the Fall--both spiritual death and physical dead--unconditionally--as it relates to the Fall. Christ alone. That grace is free. All men now have the opportunity to inherit eternal life, or, IOW--all men are now "justified of life"--as a free gift from God.

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

That's the reason the LDS believe all babies are born saved.

So--back to the OP, folks--why the anomaly? Neither Janice and Mag have not addressed that in their posts.
 
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Richard7

Well-known member
@Richard 7
According to Mormonism, those who chose to follow Satan didn't receive mortal bodies because they didn't keep their First Estate.

I never said this, why are you misquoting me...

Actually those who would not follow Christ and rebelled against the plan of Salvation did not keep their First Estate...
 
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