Why the Anomaly?

Richard7

Well-known member
If you're not baptized by a mormon....you can't be saved.

First of all there is no such thing as a mormon. Second you have to be baptized by someone who has authority (Melchezdeck Priesthood)
All christian churches that don't acknowledge that this is the Church of Jesus Christ and not named after some other person, name or cute phrase.. is not a member of His Kingdom here on earth..



Your own LDS people say if a person is baptized and a corner of their clothing isn't immersed....the baptism must be performed again.
Here.
  1. All ordinances must be performed by the authority of the priesthood. Only brethren who hold the necessary priesthood and are worthy should perform or stand in the circle for an ordinance.

Correct, complete immersion, not sprinkling of water or a partial immersion..


Baptism​

The ordinance of baptism is performed only by a worthy priest or Melchizedek Priesthood holder under the direction of the presiding authority. The priesthood holder:

  1. Stands in the water with the person to be baptized.
  2. (For convenience and safety) holds the person’s right wrist with his left hand; the person being baptized holds the priesthood holder’s left wrist with his or her left hand.
  3. Raises his right arm to the square.
  4. States the person’s full name and says, “Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen” (D&C 20:73).
  5. Has the person hold his or her nose with the right hand (for convenience); then the priesthood holder places his right hand high on the person’s back and immerses the person completely, including the person’s clothing.
  6. Helps the person come up out of the water.
Each baptism must be witnessed by two priests or Melchizedek Priesthood holders, who make sure it is performed properly. The baptism must be repeated if the prayer was not stated accurately or if part of the body or clothing of the person being baptized was not immersed completely.
One of a few prayers or ordinances that has to be stated perfectly...
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Chuckle, there were no Mormon Priest during the NT times...

Exactly....and we don't need them now.
Why not just throw out baptism, it's not essential so why talk about it... Faith alone saves one to salvation and Baptism is just a ceremony that lets others know you are what? did what? believe what?
But, as I posted in 98....the mormons seem to want to corner the marked on baptism. As a requirement for mormons for salvation...all other mrthods are invalid.
Heaven forbid a piece of the person’s clothing isn't submerged.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
First of all there is no such thing as a mormon. Second you have to be baptized by someone who has authority (Melchezdeck Priesthood)
All christian churches that don't acknowledge that this is the Church of Jesus Christ and not named after some other person, name or cute phrase.. is not a member of His Kingdom here on earth..




Correct, complete immersion, not sprinkling of water or a partial immersion..



One of a few prayers or ordinances that has to be stated perfectly...
If you have to resort to semantics, you have no argument.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I didn't say anything like "all laws governing blessings must be completed by imperfect humans." And I refuse to play games with you.
No. For sure, you're playing games. You might not want to play with those who refuse to play your games.
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
I didn't say anything like "all laws governing blessings must be completed by imperfect humans."

You stated-- "Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

That just isn't true. As I explained to you--the Atonement of Jesus Christ was a free gift to all men---unconditional.

That was the greatest blessing ever granted mankind, in LDS theology, on this earth, IMO.

Gifts and blessings aren't necessarily given through imperfect human efforts. The laws governing those blessings may be satisfied through God Himself.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
You stated-- "Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

That just isn't true. As I explained to you--the Atonement of Jesus Christ was a free gift to all men---unconditional.

That was the greatest blessing ever granted mankind, in LDS theology, on this earth, IMO. . .
Then throw away your Doctrine and Covenants and don't be a hypocrite!

Doctrine and Covenants 130
1–3, The Father and the Son may appear personally to men; 4–7, Angels reside in a celestial sphere; 8–9, The celestial earth will be a great Urim and Thummim; 10–11, A white stone is given to all who enter the celestial world; 12–17, The time of the Second Coming is withheld from the Prophet; 18–19, Intelligence gained in this life rises with us in the Resurrection; 20–21, All blessings come by obedience to law; 22–23, The Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones.

dberrie2020 said:

"That just isn't true. As I explained to you--the Atonement of Jesus Christ was a free gift to all men---unconditional.
That was the greatest blessing ever granted mankind, in LDS theology, on this earth, IMO. . ."

Does your explanation and opinion override your scripture? I guess you'll have to rewrite your scripture as Mormons removed some of the racist verses in the Book of Mormon in the 20th century. Your scriptures are not from God!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:

You stated-- "Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

That just isn't true. As I explained to you--the Atonement of Jesus Christ was a free gift to all men---unconditional.

That was the greatest blessing ever granted mankind, in LDS theology, on this earth, IMO. . .

Gifts and blessings aren't necessarily given through imperfect human efforts. The laws governing those blessings may be satisfied through God Himself.

Then throw away your Doctrine and Covenants and don't be a hypocrite!

Doctrine and Covenants 130
1–3, The Father and the Son may appear personally to men; 4–7, Angels reside in a celestial sphere; 8–9, The celestial earth will be a great Urim and Thummim; 10–11, A white stone is given to all who enter the celestial world; 12–17, The time of the Second Coming is withheld from the Prophet; 18–19, Intelligence gained in this life rises with us in the Resurrection; 20–21, All blessings come by obedience to law; 22–23, The Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones.

Could you explain for us why D&C 130 would need to be thrown away--if my above post is true? Why I would be a hypocrite?

You seem unable to accept the fact the Atonement was a free gift to all men--unconditional. You want your accusation to be true, IE-- "Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

Again--that just isn't true. You are wrong on that point. The LDS believe the Atonement was a free gift to all men.

D&C 130 asserts all blessings come by obedience to law--I believe that is true. And the "obedience to law"--was Christ's perfection. That's the law which was satisfied in bringing the blessing and free gift of the Atonement to all men. It had nothing to do with the obedience of Mormons--or anyone else, other than Jesus Christ. Him alone. His perfection plus nothing, other than the Father's approbation.

Your accusation just isn't true, as to-- "Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:

You stated-- "Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

That just isn't true. As I explained to you--the Atonement of Jesus Christ was a free gift to all men---unconditional.

That was the greatest blessing ever granted mankind, in LDS theology, on this earth, IMO. . .

Gifts and blessings aren't necessarily given through imperfect human efforts. The laws governing those blessings may be satisfied through God Himself.



Could you explain for us why D&C 130 would need to be thrown away--if my above post is true? Why I would be a hypocrite?

You seem unable to accept the fact the Atonement was a free gift to all men--unconditional. You want your accusation to be true, IE-- "Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

Again--that just isn't true. You are wrong on that point. The LDS believe the Atonement was a free gift to all men.

D&C 130 asserts all blessings come by obedience to law--I believe that is true. And the "obedience to law"--was Christ's perfection. That's the law which was satisfied in bringing the blessing and free gift of the Atonement to all men. It had nothing to do with the obedience of Mormons--or anyone else, other than Jesus Christ. Him alone. His perfection plus nothing, other than the Father's approbation.

Your accusation just isn't true, as to-- "Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

He wasn’t talking about Christ. “We” means everyone. Nice try, though.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

He wasn’t talking about Christ. “We” means everyone. Nice try, though.

There is nothing in there which states "we" means everyone, especially--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

So--please explain to us what obedience or faith the LDS believe is necessary for everyone to enjoy the blessings of the Atonement?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


The LDS believe that is a free gift--no obedience required. No faith required. Christ alone. Done. Finished. Nailed to the cross.

How is Janice's claim true---"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
There is nothing in there which states "we" means everyone, especially--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

So--please explain to us what obedience or faith the LDS believe is necessary for everyone to enjoy the blessings of the Atonement?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


The LDS believe that is a free gift--no obedience required. No faith required. Christ alone. Done. Finished. Nailed to the cross.

How is Janice's claim true---"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"
Because that’s what your scriptures say. Unless you’re disclaiming the D&C now too.

If that doctrine has become an inconvenience for you, just deny it, or ignore it, or change it, or skew it somehow, like you do with everything else you don’t want to claim about Mormon doctrine or practices.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Because that’s what your scriptures say. Unless you’re disclaiming the D&C now too.

If that doctrine has become an inconvenience for you, just deny it, or ignore it, or change it, or skew it somehow, like you do with everything else you don’t want to claim about Mormon doctrine or practices.
Guess certain posters don't know what "we" means. Sad, huh?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie said----There is nothing in there which states "we" means everyone, especially--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

So--please explain to us what obedience or faith the LDS believe is necessary for everyone to enjoy the blessings of the Atonement?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


The LDS believe that is a free gift--no obedience required. No faith required. Christ alone. Done. Finished. Nailed to the cross.

How is Janice's claim true---"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

Because that’s what your scriptures say. Unless you’re disclaiming the D&C now too.

If that doctrine has become an inconvenience for you, just deny it, or ignore it, or change it, or skew it somehow, like you do with everything else you don’t want to claim about Mormon doctrine or practices.

That does not touch upon my retort to you. The points I made went unanswered.

Again--where does it state--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"--in D&C130?

It states --"All blessings come by obedience to law;"

That isn't the same as--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:

Again--
please explain to us what obedience or faith the LDS believe is necessary for everyone to enjoy the blessings of the Atonement?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The LDS believe that is a free gift--no obedience required. No faith required. Christ alone. Done. Finished. Nailed to the cross.

The "obedience to law" was satisfied in Jesus Christ's perfection. There was nothing required of the LDS in the Atonement--it was Christ alone. It was a free blessing. The LDS did nothing to receive it.

Please understand that point, and explain to us where that leaves Janice's claim:" Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Guess certain posters don't know what "we" means. Sad, huh?

Please explain what you believe the LDS theology teaches one must do to receive the blessing of the Atonement--as to the free gift?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The "we" spoken of is the ones who receive the blessing--not who satisfies the law the blessing is predicated upon.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Please explain what you believe the LDS theology teaches one must do to receive the blessing of the Atonement--as to the free gift?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The "we" spoken of is the ones who receive the blessing--not who satisfies the law the blessing is predicated upon.
Stop trying to deceive people. Your scripture (D&C) and Mormon doctrine, says you have to obey laws to get any blessings.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Stop trying to deceive people. Your scripture (D&C) and Mormon doctrine, says you have to obey laws to get any blessings.

Cite, please. It states when we receive blessings--it is predicated upon obedience to the law upon which it is predicated. In the Atonement for all men--the Atonement was predicated upon Jesus Christ's perfection. No obedience for the LDS--or any other.

And it certainly does not say--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

It was Jesus Christ which satisfied the law concerning the Atonement, and out "justification of life", with His perfection here:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift to all men. All men now Redeemed from the Fall.

Please stop trying to twist that to mean the LDS must obey for that to happen. They don't. Nor does anyone else.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Cite, please. It states when we receive blessings--it is predicated upon obedience to the law upon which it is predicated. In the Atonement for all men--the Atonement was predicated upon Jesus Christ's perfection. No obedience for the LDS--or any other.

And it certainly does not say--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

It was Jesus Christ which satisfied the law concerning the Atonement, and out "justification of life", with His perfection here:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Free gift to all men. All men now Redeemed from the Fall.

Please stop trying to twist that to mean the LDS must obey for that to happen. They don't. Nor does anyone else.
Is English not your first language? It says you don’t receive any blessings without obedience first. That means you are required to earn each blessing through obedience.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Is English not your first language? It says you don’t receive any blessings without obedience first. That means you are required to earn each blessing through obedience.
True:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

[/quote]

Looks pretty straight forward to me. The only "blessing" Mormons don't earn is resurrection from the dead, which they call salvation, redefining the word. But everything else must be earned by obedience to Mormon laws and rules. Sad, isn't it?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Is English not your first language? It says you don’t receive any blessings without obedience first.

What it does not state is that it requires the obedience of Mormons. Or yours.

For example--the LDS and the Biblical text believe, and teach--the Atonement was a free gift to all men--excluding our obedience.

The obedience which was necessary to satisfy the blessings--came from Christ--His perfection. That was the law which was satisfied whereby Christ could make the Atonement--in which all men were "justified of life", or--the opportunity of eternal life presented to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Again--where does that leave the claim--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

That is a false claim.

That means you are required to earn each blessing through obedience.

Again--where does it state "you" are required to earn each blessing? Cite, please.

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

It states when we receive any blessing--it it through obedience to the law upon which it is predicated. Where does it state "you" there?

We obtained the blessing of the Atonement through Christ's obedience--not ours.

Mag--aren't the critics here the ones who insist we must do something in order to receive that blessing?
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
What it does not state is that it requires the obedience of Mormons. Or yours.

For example--the LDS and the Biblical text believe, and teach--the Atonement was a free gift to all men--excluding our obedience.

The obedience which was necessary to satisfy the blessings--came from Christ--His perfection. That was the law which was satisfied whereby Christ could make the Atonement--in which all men were "justified of life", or--the opportunity of eternal life presented to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Again--where does that leave the claim--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

That is a false claim.



Again--where does it state "you" are required to earn each blessing? Cite, please.

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

It states when we receive any blessing--it it through obedience to the law upon which it is predicated. Where does it state "you" there?

We obtained the blessing of the Atonement through Christ's obedience--not ours.

Mag--aren't the critics here the ones who insist we must do something in order to receive that blessing?
Where does your scripture say it was Christ’s obedience it was referring to? It doesn’t. It says “we.”
 
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