Why the Anomaly?

dberrie2020

Well-known member
True: Looks pretty straight forward to me. The only "blessing" Mormons don't earn is resurrection from the dead,

That just isn't true, Bonnie--and we have been through this before, so you should be aware of that.

The LDS believe all mankind is absolved of both physical AND spiritual death, as it relates to the Fall--as a free gift to all men.

The Resurrection is a free gift--AND--the Blood Jesus shed for all mankind, to absolve all of the spiritual dead, as it relates to the Fall--are both unconditional free gifts to all men.

Redemption

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3"

Bonnie--isn't it your church which requires one to do something for the Atonement? The LDS believe it's a free gift, just as the scriptures testify to:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Why the anomaly?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Where does your scripture say it was Christ’s obedience it was referring to?

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3

His sinless life, the shedding of His blood in the garden of Gethsemane, His death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam."

It doesn’t. It says “we.”

The "we" is connected to the obtaining of the blessing--not the obedience:


20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Again--where does it state it is by our obedience it is obtained? IOW--we obtained the blessing of the Atonement, as far as the free gift is concerned, from both physical and spiritual death, as it pertains to the Fall--through the obedience of Jesus Christ, His perfection. He satisfied the law which we received the blessings of the Atonement, as to the Fall.

Please understand that--and that the accusation here is a false one:--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3

His sinless life, the shedding of His blood in the garden of Gethsemane, His death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam."



The "we" is connected to the obtaining of the blessing--not the obedience:


20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Again--where does it state it is by our obedience it is obtained? IOW--we obtained the blessing of the Atonement, as far as the free gift is concerned, from both physical and spiritual death, as it pertains to the Fall--through the obedience of Jesus Christ, His perfection. He satisfied the law which we received the blessings of the Atonement, as to the Fall.

Please understand that--and that the accusation here is a false one:--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"
It is says it in the very words you just quoted.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Once again you prove that you’re here for your own entertainment and not serious discussion.
Yep. Because right here are the words that prove in the LDS church, obedience to various laws is necessary to receive any blessing in that church, except for physical resurrection from the dead--though what blessing is that, if one goes into outer darkness for eternity?--and Jesus paying for Adam's sin on the cross?

Once again, here are the exact words from the LDS church itself that prove this:

"21 And when WE obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

The LDS church is all about obedience, but not to God but to itself and its own laws. The true church of the true Jesus Christ of the Bible is all about grace--God's undeserved favor in Christ Jesus our Lord. BIG difference!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Yep. Because right here are the words that prove in the LDS church, obedience to various laws is necessary to receive any blessing in that church, except for physical resurrection from the dead--

What is there that you and Mag don't understand about the testimony here?

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3

Once again, here are the exact words from the LDS church itself that prove this:

"21 And when WE obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

And once again--it states -- "when WE obtain any blessing from God,"---it says nothing about the Mormons must be the ones which obey the law which the blessing is predicated.

IOW--the Atonement of Jesus Christ Redeemed all men from the Fall--both physically AND spiritually--as a free gift. No obedience required from the LDS, nor anyone else--except Christ's perfection. It was Christ alone. Free gift to all men.

The LDS, and all men--received of those blessings--as stated here: "This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3"

The obedience to the law of Redemption--in which all men received the Redemption--was satisfied by Christ--and was a free gift to all men--without conditions to the LDS:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

What is there you don't understand about that?

So--where does that leave this accusation--and yours---"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

That's a false accusation. It is not based in truth. It's not LDS theology.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You can’t read your own comments and follow the discussion? I’ve answered you several times.

You haven't touched my points of concern--except with answers as you just gave, IMO.

Care to address my concerns?

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3

His sinless life, the shedding of His blood in the garden of Gethsemane, His death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam."

Magdalena said:
It doesn’t. It says “we.”

The "we" is connected to the obtaining of the blessing--not the obedience:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Again--where does it state it is by our obedience it is obtained? IOW--we obtained the blessing of the Atonement, as far as the free gift is concerned, from both physical and spiritual death, as it pertains to the Fall--through the obedience of Jesus Christ, His perfection. He satisfied the law which we received the blessings of the Atonement, as to the Fall.

Please understand that--and that the accusation here is a false one:--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
You haven't touched my points of concern--except with answers as you just gave, IMO.

Care to address my concerns?

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3

His sinless life, the shedding of His blood in the garden of Gethsemane, His death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam."



The "we" is connected to the obtaining of the blessing--not the obedience:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Again--where does it state it is by our obedience it is obtained? IOW--we obtained the blessing of the Atonement, as far as the free gift is concerned, from both physical and spiritual death, as it pertains to the Fall--through the obedience of Jesus Christ, His perfection. He satisfied the law which we received the blessings of the Atonement, as to the Fall.

Please understand that--and that the accusation here is a false one:--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"
The structure of the sentence… its addressed to “we.” It’s talking to and about everyone as “we.” When “we” obtain blessings, it’s because of obedience. It does not say that it’s Christ’s obedience. You obtain blessings because of your obedience. That’s the Mormon doctrine. You’re trying to put your own spin on it.

I don’t blame you for not liking that doctrine and wanting to change it. But it’s pretty disingenuous to try to mislead people about it.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The structure of the sentence… its addressed to “we.” It’s talking to and about everyone as “we.” When “we” obtain blessings, it’s because of obedience. It does not say that it’s Christ’s obedience. You obtain blessings because of your obedience. That’s the Mormon doctrine. You’re trying to put your own spin on it.

I don’t blame you for not liking that doctrine and wanting to change it. But it’s pretty disingenuous to try to mislead people about it.

So--please stop misleading.

Again--please show where it states "we" obtain all or each or every blessing due to our own obedience?

Once more:

Care to address my concerns?

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3

His sinless life, the shedding of His blood in the garden of Gethsemane, His death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam."

Magdalena said:
It doesn’t. It says “we.”

The "we" is connected to the obtaining of the blessing--not the obedience:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Again--where does it state it is by our obedience it is obtained? IOW--we obtained the blessing of the Atonement, as far as the free gift is concerned, from both physical and spiritual death, as it pertains to the Fall--through the obedience of Jesus Christ, His perfection. He satisfied the law which we received the blessings of the Atonement, as to the Fall.

Please understand that--and that the accusation here is a false one:--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

Please feel free to address that specific concern.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
That just isn't true, Bonnie--and we have been through this before, so you should be aware of that.

The LDS believe all mankind is absolved of both physical AND spiritual death, as it relates to the Fall--as a free gift to all men.

The Resurrection is a free gift--AND--the Blood Jesus shed for all mankind, to absolve all of the spiritual dead, as it relates to the Fall--are both unconditional free gifts to all men.

Redemption

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3"

Bonnie--isn't it your church which requires one to do something for the Atonement? The LDS believe it's a free gift, just as the scriptures testify to:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Why the anomaly?
Why the smoke-and-mirrors? You are appparently here to hide the truth of Mormonism by distaction.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
What is there that you and Mag don't understand about the testimony here?

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3



And once again--it states -- "when WE obtain any blessing from God,"---it says nothing about the Mormons must be the ones which obey the law which the blessing is predicated.

IOW--the Atonement of Jesus Christ Redeemed all men from the Fall--both physically AND spiritually--as a free gift. No obedience required from the LDS, nor anyone else--except Christ's perfection. It was Christ alone. Free gift to all men.

The LDS, and all men--received of those blessings--as stated here: "This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3"

The obedience to the law of Redemption--in which all men received the Redemption--was satisfied by Christ--and was a free gift to all men--without conditions to the LDS:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

What is there you don't understand about that?

So--where does that leave this accusation--and yours---"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

That's a false accusation. It is not based in truth. It's not LDS theology.
LDS speak out of both sides of their mouths. Resurrection is not salvation in Mormonism. Choosing to reinvent words like redemption is deceitful. Being resurrected to the Telestial Kingdom or outer darkness isn't salvation. Making statements that it's "not LDS theology" is also deceitful because you contradict your own scripture. And nothing is free to LDS because everyone here according to decisions and behavior in pre-mortality (First Estate) determined whether or not you would be kicked out with Lucifer/Satan or be allowed to come to your Second Estate and experience mortality. All people who came to earth have to earn every blessing. If you don't earn the requirements for certain blessings, after death you go to temporary hell to pay for your sins but you can't earn full salvation in that hell.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The structure of the sentence… its addressed to “we.” It’s talking to and about everyone as “we.” When “we” obtain blessings, it’s because of obedience. It does not say that it’s Christ’s obedience. You obtain blessings because of your obedience. That’s the Mormon doctrine. You’re trying to put your own spin on it.

I don’t blame you for not liking that doctrine and wanting to change it. But it’s pretty disingenuous to try to mislead people about it.
Apparently "any" and "we" have different meanings in the LDS church, LOL!

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain ANY blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
By Elder D. Todd Christofferson:

The "we" is connected to the obtaining of the blessing--not the obedience:


20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Again--where does it state it is by our obedience it is obtained? IOW--we obtained the blessing of the Atonement, as far as the free gift is concerned, from both physical and spiritual death, as it pertains to the Fall--through the obedience of Jesus Christ, His perfection. He satisfied the law which we received the blessings of the Atonement, as to the Fall.

Please understand that--and that the accusation here is a false one:--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:

Do you suppose that the word "we" does not refer to your church members since Doctrine and Covenants belongs to your church and no other church?

Mormons teach that every blessing has to be earned and your false god is "bound" to give the blessing earned by that person's obedience.
 
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Janice Bower

Well-known member
The structure of the sentence… its addressed to “we.” It’s talking to and about everyone as “we.” When “we” obtain blessings, it’s because of obedience. It does not say that it’s Christ’s obedience. You obtain blessings because of your obedience. That’s the Mormon doctrine. You’re trying to put your own spin on it.

I don’t blame you for not liking that doctrine and wanting to change it. But it’s pretty disingenuous to try to mislead people about it.
This is an excellent truthful response. (y)
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
So--please stop misleading.

Again--please show where it states "we" obtain all or each or every blessing due to our own obedience?

Once more:

Care to address my concerns?

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


"The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3

His sinless life, the shedding of His blood in the garden of Gethsemane, His death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam."



The "we" is connected to the obtaining of the blessing--not the obedience:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Again--where does it state it is by our obedience it is obtained? IOW--we obtained the blessing of the Atonement, as far as the free gift is concerned, from both physical and spiritual death, as it pertains to the Fall--through the obedience of Jesus Christ, His perfection. He satisfied the law which we received the blessings of the Atonement, as to the Fall.

Please understand that--and that the accusation here is a false one:--"Mormons are required to earn each blessing:"

Please feel free to address that specific concern.
I have addressed it.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Exactly....and we don't need them now.
Why you need and you wish you had it the authority to act in the name of God along with the Keys of the Kingdom which were given to the original apostles... oh my! where oh where are those keys, we seem to have lost them... chuckle.


But, as I posted in 98....the mormons seem to want to corner the marked on baptism. As a requirement for mormons for salvation...all other mrthods are invalid.
Heaven forbid a piece of the person’s clothing isn't submerged.
Yep, those who have the authority and the Keys of the Kingdom have more or less cornered the market, but not in the way you think...
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Why you need and you wish you had it the authority to act in the name of God along with the Keys of the Kingdom which were given to the original apostles... oh my! where oh where are those keys, we seem to have lost them... chuckle.



Yep, those who have the authority and the Keys of the Kingdom have more or less cornered the market, but not in the way you think...
The mormons don't have any apostles..and they certainly don't have the keys.
 
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