Why the Anomaly?

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do you suppose that the word "we" does not refer to your church members since Doctrine and Covenants belongs to your church and no other church?

My concern has still not been addressed:

"Again--please show where it states "we" obtain all or each or every blessing due to our own obedience?

Once more:

"Care to address my concerns?

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3

His sinless life, the shedding of His blood in the garden of Gethsemane, His death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam."

The term "we" is centered in OBTAINING the blessing--not the obedience:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain ANY blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

It was Jesus Christ which satisfied the law upon which all men obtained the blessing of the Atonement--His perfection:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

To Bonnie and Janice--"taint so" isn't a convincing nor compelling argument.

Mormons teach that every blessing has to be earned and your false god is "bound" to give the blessing earned by that person's obedience.

That just isn't true--nor have you nor Bonnie been able to establish that as a doctrine found in the D&C passages under consideration.

There are blessing which are predicated upon our obedience to Jesus Christ---that is Biblical:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Contrary to the theology the critics pawn here.

Then--there are blessings which are free gifts to mankind--through God Himself:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Please address that concern.

Also--I believe it's the critics here, themselves ---which maintain we must do something for the free gift--right? The LDS believe it's a free gift--unconditional.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The mormons don't have any apostles..and they certainly don't have the keys.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--just as the NT church is shown to have them in the first century church.

And they can show the heavenly means by which keys were obtained:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Crow--can you explain why the denominations the critics claim here can't show the first heavenly manifestation exhibited in the above revelation, as Christ's church did in the Biblical NT--nor the living, mortal apostles and prophets?

Imagine that--not the first heavenly manifestation--and a claim they are God's church?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--just as the NT church is shown to have them in the first century church.

And they can show the heavenly means by which keys were obtained:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Crow--can you explain why the denominations the critics claim here can't show the first heavenly manifestation exhibited in the above revelation, as Christ's church did in the Biblical NT--nor the living, mortal apostles and prophets?

Imagine that--not the first heavenly manifestation--and a claim they are God's church?
The D&C...is about as biblical as the Koran.

But then again it's where you get your false belief from.

How many keys do the mormons have? You mentioned the keys to this dispensation while we were talking about the kingdom of heaven.....which one?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The D&C...is about as biblical as the Koran.

Are you thinking the Jews--to this very day--aren't making the same charge concerning the NT--for the main? The NT apostles were being killed for the doctrines they were teaching--those doctrines were heretical, in their day--and long afterward.

So--what's new?

Crow--the LDS church has the heavenly revelation--with witnesses--the same as the NT. They have the living, mortal, apostles and prophets. Your church does not.

So--how is your accusations any different than the NT critics of the NT church? The ONE church--with living, mortal apostles and prophets--and the heavenly revelations? With the additional scripture?

That is the same makeup the LDS church possess today.

But then again it's where you get your false belief from.

The fact the NT had heavenly revelation isn't a false belief--the fact the LDS church has heavenly revelation--with witnesses--makes them unique with the NT church, as they two share that trait.

Your church does not--which means you are the one which do not match the Biblical traits of the NT church. The LDS church does.

How many keys do the mormons have? You mentioned the keys to this dispensation while we were talking about the kingdom of heaven.....which one?

The ones identified in the very section I posted to you:


D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
My concern has still not been addressed:

"Again--please show where it states "we" obtain all or each or every blessing due to our own obedience?

Once more:

"Care to address my concerns?

By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


The Savior’s Redemption has two parts. First, it atones for Adam’s transgression and the consequent Fall of man by overcoming what could be called the direct effects of the Fall—physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is well understood; spiritual death is the separation of man from God. In the words of Paul, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). This redemption from physical and spiritual death is both universal and without condition.3

His sinless life, the shedding of His blood in the garden of Gethsemane, His death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, He made a perfect atonement for all mankind. All are covered unconditionally as pertaining to the Fall of Adam."

The term "we" is centered in OBTAINING the blessing--not the obedience:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain ANY blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

It was Jesus Christ which satisfied the law upon which all men obtained the blessing of the Atonement--His perfection:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

To Bonnie and Janice--"taint so" isn't a convincing nor compelling argument.



That just isn't true--nor have you nor Bonnie been able to establish that as a doctrine found in the D&C passages under consideration.

There are blessing which are predicated upon our obedience to Jesus Christ---that is Biblical:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Contrary to the theology the critics pawn here.

Then--there are blessings which are free gifts to mankind--through God Himself:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Please address that concern.

Also--I believe it's the critics here, themselves ---which maintain we must do something for the free gift--right? The LDS believe it's a free gift--unconditional.
Vitriol is blinding.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--just as the NT church is shown to have them in the first century church.
You have a false gospel, false gods, false prophets, false teachers, false scriptures, etc.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:---The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--just as the NT church is shown to have them in the first century church.

You have a false gospel, false gods, false prophets, false teachers, false scriptures, etc.

How do you suppose that is any different than the charges leveled against the first century church--which had the living mortal apostles and prophets?

Janice--your church can't show the first heavenly visitation, the living, mortal apostles and prophets, priesthood authority, etc. For me--that seems like a two legged dog howling at the moon.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:---The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--just as the NT church is shown to have them in the first century church.



How do you suppose that is any different than the charges leveled against the first century church--which had the living mortal apostles and prophets?

Janice--your church can't show the first heavenly visitation, the living, mortal apostles and prophets, priesthood authority, etc. For me--that seems like a two legged dog howling at the moon.

Ezekiel 13:6​

They have seen false visions and lying divinations. They say, ‘Declares the Lord,’ when the Lord has not sent them, and yet they expect him to fulfill their word.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15​

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.​


Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Colossians 2:16-23
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind

Deuteronomy 13:1-5​

“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
The mormons don't have any apostles..and they certainly don't have the keys.
So where are the Keys of the Kingdom that can seal those things on earth..... whereby Jesus says to Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven."
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:---The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--just as the NT church is shown to have them in the first century church.



How do you suppose that is any different than the charges leveled against the first century church--which had the living mortal apostles and prophets?

Janice--your church can't show the first heavenly visitation, the living, mortal apostles and prophets, priesthood authority, etc. For me--that seems like a two legged dog howling at the moon.
My church? Where did you get the idea that I started a church? Christ added me to His Church. He is the cornerstone! You don't understand the Bible.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
My church? Where did you get the idea that I started a church? Christ added me to His Church. He is the cornerstone! You don't understand the Bible.
yes he is the cornerstone and who are the foundation? Our Savior is the cornerstone of the household of God, His apostles and prophets make up the rest of the foundation.... where in you religion did you go wrong? you can't admit that the Church died when the foundation were all murdered...
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:---The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--just as the NT church is shown to have them in the first century church.

How do you suppose that is any different than the charges leveled against the first century church--which had the living mortal apostles and prophets?

Janice--your church can't show the first heavenly visitation, the living, mortal apostles and prophets, priesthood authority, etc. For me--that seems like a two legged dog howling at the moon.

Ezekiel 13:6​

They have seen false visions and lying divinations. They say, ‘Declares the Lord,’ when the Lord has not sent them, and yet they expect him to fulfill their word.

Again--that could have well been the very scripture the traditional Jews of the NT were leveling against the NT apostles.

That accusation does not add the fist living, mortal apostle nor prophet to the church you attend. Nor the heavenly revelations.

The LDS church has both--and so did the first century church:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
So where are the Keys of the Kingdom that can seal those things on earth..... whereby Jesus says to Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven."
You're just jabbering. You have no keys!
dberrie2020 said:---The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--just as the NT church is shown to have them in the first century church.

Mormonism is false. Jesus' church cannot be destroyed.

How do you suppose that is any different than the charges leveled against the first century church--which had the living mortal apostles and prophets?

Get over it. You can't defend your religion so you aren't even trying.


Janice--your church can't show the first heavenly visitation, the living, mortal apostles and prophets, priesthood authority, etc. For me--that seems like a two legged dog howling at the moon.

I started no church so I defend no church. I defend God's word.



Again--that could have well been the very scripture the traditional Jews of the NT were leveling against the NT apostles.

That accusation does not add the fist living, mortal apostle nor prophet to the church you attend. Nor the heavenly revelations.

The LDS church has both--and so did the first century church:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Do you still have those false apostles and prophets(including Joseph Smith) who didn't replace the eternal foundation and your false Jesus Christ who will never replace our Savior?
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:---The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do have the living, mortal apostles and prophets--just as the NT church is shown to have them in the first century church.

How do you suppose that is any different than the charges leveled against the first century church--which had the living mortal apostles and prophets?

Janice--your church can't show the first heavenly visitation, the living, mortal apostles and prophets, priesthood authority, etc. For me--that seems like a two legged dog howling at the moon.



Again--that could have well been the very scripture the traditional Jews of the NT were leveling against the NT apostles.

That accusation does not add the fist living, mortal apostle nor prophet to the church you attend. Nor the heavenly revelations.

The LDS church has both--and so did the first century church:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
You can have as many false prophets and apostles as you want. Doesn’t make it Christ’s church.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Do you still have those false apostles and prophets(including Joseph Smith) who didn't replace the eternal foundation and your false Jesus Christ who will never replace our Savior?
No one can replace the Savior, for you to even suggest that is obviously creating some kind of doubt in your mind...
 

Richard7

Well-known member
You can have as many false prophets and apostles as you want. Doesn’t make it Christ’s church.
You mean the Church of Jesus Christ... his actual full name, due to our respect and honor we give Him... and the Baptist have their church, the protestants have their church, the Pentecostalist have their church, the Lutherans have their church, etc, etc. I guess by now you get my point....there are no other Churches that Go by His Name... so we have the Keys, the Priesthood and the name..just another bullseye for the true church and plan of Salvation ... chuckle
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
You mean the Church of Jesus Christ... his actual full name, due to our respect and honor we give Him... and the Baptist have their church, the protestants have their church, the Pentecostalist have their church, the Lutherans have their church, etc, etc. I guess by now you get my point....there are no other Churches that Go by His Name... so we have the Keys, the Priesthood and the name..just another bullseye for the true church and plan of Salvation ... chuckle
You can call it whatever you want. Doesn’t make it His.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You mean the Church of Jesus Christ... his actual full name, due to our respect and honor we give Him...

your church has zero respect for the true Jesus Christ of the Bible, making him Satan's actual brother (!) in the supposed pre-mortal existence. For shame!
and the Baptist have their church, the protestants have their church, the Pentecostalist have their church, the Lutherans have their church, etc, etc. I guess by now you get my point....there are no other Churches that Go by His Name...

Just having the name "Jesus Christ" in the title is no guarantee a church is Christian. The best example is YOURS.
so we have the Keys, the Priesthood and the name..just another bullseye for the true church and plan of Salvation ... chuckle
No, you don't. And your priesthoods are as phony as monopoly money. Show us from the Bible where there are two priesthoods in the NT church, where, in fact, any church worker is called a "priest." In fact if Mormons would read Hebrews without their Mormon spectacles on, they would see that the old Aaronic priesthood is obsolete and no longer necessary in the NEW and BETTER covenant of grace in the blood of Jesus Christ, our great high priest! And they would also see that ONLY Jesus holds the Melchizedek priesthood because ONLY He can save us from our sins and lives forever to intercede for us.

We don't need formal priesthoods anymore in the NC, since ALL believers are a royal priesthood to God the Father, with Jesus Christ as our great High Priest.

Another bullseye? Yes, on Satan's dartboard! But not on God's!
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Show us from the Bible where there are two priesthoods in the NT church, where, in fact, any church worker is called a "priest."

Revelation 1:6---King James Version

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Bonnie--what Bible are you reading?
 
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